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MORE DEPTH !!

Ralph Bryant

New member
Just like many aspects of life, we all tend to get into our own little comfort zones. This is also the case when we settle upon a certain single or few machines or manufacturers, and I know I'm as gulity of that as others. It's really important to keep an open mind though in trying new machines or "claimed" technology. Sure it can get expensive, but exploring new things tends to help keep us interested and out of the proverbial "detecting rut" sometimes. I know there have been times when I just had to take a hiatis from detecting and the forums for awhile because I was getting absolutely BORED with the hobby. But something always happens to get my interest back up in the hobby, whether new hunting possibilities, new machines, new technology that looks promising, or simply going through the same boredom routine with some of my other hobbies.

Some people like simplicity in their detectors, while others like as much complexity as possible. To some, tuning and turning knobs is a part of the enjoyment they get from detecting, others just like to beep and dig. I personally fall somewhere in between, enjoying both the practical and the technical side of the hobby and equipment. I remember very well the early days of hunting with the old BFO machines, and have seen many advancements in technology through the years. But when it comes right down to raw depth of detection, that is probably the area of least improvement, with more accomplished along the lines of discrimination and ground cancellation. After all, there is just so far (deep) you can go with a particular sized coil. We still constantly hear the battle cry that sounds like a Spam canned meat commercial on T.V........ "MORE DEPTH", but what really are the practical limits of depth ?

Suppose for instance that we had machines that would readily detect a coin-sized target and discriminate/identify the target at 10 inches deep. Now I don't know about others, but I don't often encounter many coins at that depth here in the states, even with machines capable of detecting them that deep.

What if someone were to improve on current technology to the point of doubling those depths overnight, giving us the ability to accurately detect, discriminate, identify and dig coins at 20 inches deep ? Is that going to improve your finds count to any significant degree, or is that going to put you in a position of spending twice (or more) of your time digging rather than detecting ? What I'm getting at is that there is as point somewhere along the line of diminishing returns..... or the ability to detecte deeper at the expense of having to spend more time digging those deeper targets. I don't know about you guys, but at some point, digging deeper and deeper holes stops being a hobby and starts becoming WORK !

I'm really not so sure that saying we are at a technological plateau in our machines is really going to prove to be an accurate statement. Technology has a way of taking us by surprise and catching us off-guard to what is physically and humanly possible. Look where we are today, only some 50 years after the advent of television. Look at the advancements we have seen in technology the past 100 years, and then imagine those kinds of relative advancements above and beyond what is available today. There will obviously be things done in the future that we don't even dream about today, just like the more advanced metal detectors that we have now compared to the simple BFO machines of the 60s. Will we ever get to the point of those proverbial video detectors that can see what is in the ground, or even read the dates on coins ? Will our machines advance beyond just relative conductivity values in the discrimination circuits to machines that can realistically and consistently tell us the difference between gold rings and pull-tabs ? I really don't know. I just hope this hobby of ours survives the lack of interest, hobby stagnation, and legislative hurdles and roadblocks long enough to allow us to get to that point in time...... if that's where we are headed.

As for "MORE DEPTH", I think I would much rather have a machine that will tell me the difference between the tabs and the gold rings...... or "BETTER DISCRIMINATION". ;)

Just a few thoughts.......

Ralph
 
Hi Ralph, back in the early 90's , I bought a sovereign xs, based on what i read in the treasure mags. When it arrived, I ran it thru the air tests, and it had lousy depth. I was not impressed. Then i took it down to the Lake Michigan beach , near home. I started nailing coins 8-10 deep in the dry sand. Best performance I ever had with any machine back then. Eventually I started to work closer to the waterline. As I became more familiar with the machine, I would run it in all metal, and listen to slight rises in volume. I was pulling clad dimes out of the damp sand at a measured 22" . Clad quarters 20" deep, tape measured. That was with the 8" coinsearch coil. When my cousin saw the depth, he ran out and bought one. His machine would only do about 10".
When I hit the parks, depth was normal, but in that sand, it transformed into a monster.
The next year, like a fool I sold it for an XS 2 pro, and back to average depth.
I never came across another machine that went so deep in that sand.
It must have been a freak. Wish I would have kept that one. bugg-wi
 
I would probably take out a loan on my house if I could get a machine that would know the diff. between gold rings and pulltabs. Or looking at it from another angle if I could have a machine that would always know when it encountered aluminum and iron then I wouldn't mind digging everything else, say have a screen that would flash alum. and or iron but that would take some of the fun out of the uncertainty of not knowing what is under the ground. I doubt that will ever happen but who knows? I don't think extra voltage will help much but they have those lithium battery packs for hand tools up to at least 28 volts, maybe we could get a hip-mountable battery pack up to 110 volts one of these days and have some real power? I have more immediate problems to deal with like having time to metal detect and that is what I need to work on. HH
Steve(MS)
 
I am really worn out about more depth as you have NAILED it square on the head. I want a machine that will tell a ring from a tab, if it gold or silver, how much it is worth, and dig it up, then bring it to the bench were I am drinking a cool one.
 
Unfortunately I hunt areas where the average silver coin is 8-12 inches so depth indeed is a factor as I could miss a lot using the wrong unit. Guess we don't hunt on level fields sort of...
Once hunted an old baseball field where they bulldozed off 10-12 inches in an effort to eliminate a drainage problem..At 8 inches dug a Barber quarter..Do coins drop 18-20 inches heck I don't know but if the bulldozers hadn't hit the field never would have gotten the quarter or even came close.
As far as gold rings and items which mimic them for sure your only true discriminator is a shovel. Just remember the gold rings are much heavier and on many units sound different because of this enough to cut down the digging odds so learn the language of your unit and all do not have enough audio variances but many do to help cut down the odds.
In all honesty I loved the post just had to add this as our area is hard hit and to get the ones others miss just have to work a little harder, go a little deeper, listen up or for sure our pouches will not have the old coins or an occasional gold ring as they are scarce on land.
In addendum wish we knew all the answers, but we don't so debateable for sure..at least in my neck of the woods...
 
I never quite understood how coins can actually "sink" into the ground, when around here, the rocks come to the top ! :lol: Not saying that depth is not important by any means, just depends on the ground conditions and types of hunting we do around here. Out on the relic fields in NW Arkansas where the plows had been at work for years, depth is key. In other places where we're basically hunting a couple of inches above bedrock, maybe not. I always forget to mention that I'm a trash hunter, where discrimination and separation are the biggest concerns.

Ralph
 
Honestly don't know either and have heard many theories which are just that theories....but I do know my neck of the woods has deepies..
 
I have Hotrocks and very mineralized conditions at many sites and add in modern aluminum and decomposing iron also. I call it ground from hell and is very difficult to get any solid resolution on many targets over 3" deep. Not every site is like this but many good sites in northern Delaware are similar. A few spots on a large site are so bad that the only way i can tell if something is there is by the increased intereference through the headphones and opening up the turf plug is almost like putting a stick thru a hornets nest.Fortunately most targets aren't deep put many are hidden in a vail of interference like listening to an AM radio station next to a TV.So far the Sovereign has been the best for me at these areas and don't really care how deep it goes just that it does better where others haven't done well. This isn't meant to elevate the Sovereign but to illustrate what your saying about depth, many times it's resolution and i understand some areas require depth. Good post Ralph. HH Bill
 
I have a Sovereign Elite that I would not trade for anything. It has long been one of my major two clubs to hit a long ball. I was wondering if you might think of the advantages of a good single frequency detector. A problem with multiple frequency is ground NOISE, stray RF, and a bird flys over chirping, you name it. A single frequency only has to contend with that one frequency so we end up with a quick snappy hit on a target and less noise problems. Just a thought as I have one that I use now in those area that as you say are "ground from hell".

I would like to see a speciality detector for "ground from hell". There are some prime locations that have high voltage power lines across the property which just about kills a strip 50 yards wide and across 180 acres. A detector jumps out of your hand and runs to the truck yelping like a scaled dog.
 
Three exceptions; Minelabs multi freq. units have transmitter in loop so more power is there. Nautilus has a transmit boost, but is not TID. And the Bully of the Market is the Treasure Baron with a deep hunter transmitter module that increases output by 40%. You can do with their 8" loop what others need a 12" to 15" loop, yet still get between the trash. It also has a non motion hunting mode with tone i.d. of iron. The iron idea in any mode is exceptional.
 
The Sov does not have any special transmit circuit in the coil like the hype in the advertisements say.

The only transmit circuits in the coil is the loop of wire and a resonating cap.......just like any other coil.

The only real difference between a Sov coil and any other is that there is a recieve signal preamp that is powered from the transmit lines.

Think about this...

Sov uses 4 wires to the coil.....2 active transmit lines 180 deg out of phase, 1 recieve line and 1 ground for the recieve signal.

There is no source of power to operate an amplifier for the transmit signal.
 
ADD TO THAT, IT IS PROGRAMMED TO HUNT ON IT'S OWN, AND RECOVER THE COIN, COOK HOT-DOGS, BEANIE WEENIE, AND PLAY POKER AT A CASINO
 
But to be able to actually differentiate between aluminum and gold would be nice
 
The best detector ever made for separation of various metal is the PRG, or PHASE READOUT GRADIOMETER, made by Technos Inc. of Florida back in 1972. It absolutely IDENTIFIED various metals by meter, and was not called a discriminator, but an ANALYZER. But at a time when you could buy any top of the line detector for $300, the PRG cost $1000. At this point in time TRs and BFOs would only discriminate iron, with the exception of "The Pro" by A.H. Electronics, which technically was neither a TR or BFO, and was called an "off-resonance discriminator", and the only detector capable of discriminating pulltabs. And there has never been anything like the PRG since.
 
I've seen scores of people give up and complain, "its too deep."
 
I have been using mostly single frequency detectors between 5 and 7Khz with various coils and settings at these sites and still in trial and error mode.The main point of my initial post was agreement with Ralph on depth issue and secondly to expound at least from my limited experience how much may still be in the ground at relatively shallow depths and masked due manmade and or natural challenges.

I have gone over some areas many times with above mentioned detectors and managed to pluck some good targets and perhaps the Sovereign just happened to eliminate enough barriers to retrieve a few others and didn't mean to infer the Sovereign was the best at these type sites , because i really don't know which is best i just keep plugging away with all i got and open to any other suggestions.

Thanks Cody and BTW any hint on your choice at the Lands of the Poltergeists :devil: :rage: :lol: HH Bill
 
Ralph Bryant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never quite understood how coins can actually
> "sink" into the ground, when around here, the
> rocks come to the top ! :lol: Not saying that
> depth is not important by any means, just depends
> on the ground conditions and types of hunting we
> do around here. Out on the relic fields in NW
> Arkansas where the plows had been at work for
> years, depth is key. In other places where we're
> basically hunting a couple of inches above
> bedrock, maybe not. I always forget to mention
> that I'm a trash hunter, where discrimination and
> separation are the biggest concerns.
>
> Ralph


I'm with you, Ralph. I don't believe they sink at all. I believe they get covered up. When I hunt an area, like a park or lawn, where year after year the clippings that don't get into the grass bag, or the leaves that break up and decay, the coins can get deeper and deeper. Look at the area next to a curb in an older part of town. The grass is several inches above the edge of the curb. Perhaps as many as 6 or 8 inches in some areas. That grass wasn't originally planted that high, it's from accumulation over time. That's what makes those targets that were lost, when the grass was first planted, 6 to 8 inches deep now.

I hunt some 125 year old ghost towns where there is no grass cutting going on, and can eyeball coins from the 60's, 1860's, lying on top of the ground. This is in a sandy soil.

No, I don't believe coins sink into the ground. They wind up below the surface due to other factors than sinking. Just my thoughts.

OldeTymer
 
In the last three years I have used, Whites DFX, 5900DI, MXT, 6000di, Garrett Infinitum, Sovereign, Explore11, XS, Fisher CoinStrike, CZ3D, CZ70, a couple Nautilus, and one or two Speciality detector Gold Machines to see if I could get something from them on gold jewelry. These come to mind off the top of my head. I liked all of them and thought they were great detectors. I currently have the 5900di, DFX, Explorer11, and Sovereign Elite, have an X-terra that should be here today and am going to order an X-terra50.

My main machine is the Explorer11 and I think the X-terra is going to work well for me. I am 65 and need a light machine to hunt with as all that swinging has caught up with my right arm. I am now using a Swingy Things, best thing since the 5 cent cigar, but still need a light easy to use machine.

I am in Ralph's camp in I really enjoy finding the trashy areas in a park and picking through it for the goodies. I guess I am a trash picker at heart. I can do that with my Explorer very nicely but the weight is still a bit of a problem. I also think a single frequency detector with the right coil is going to perform well in high trash. One reason for the higher frequency coil, I wish it was smaller, is I understand a higher frequency rejects trash a little better. I think that is what all the fuss is about with manufactures in trying to settle on a frequency. I like what Minleab is doing in this area with a machine that will track the coil instead of the high cost of multiple frequency time domain or multiple frequency domain.

I guess you see that I frankly don't care who makes the detector or what they call it. If the X-terra are not what I think they will be and should be I will not be using one long. So far all the Minelabs I have used have really performed as advertised which keeps me interested in their products. Let me add I keep tabs on the others looking for THE SUPER DETECTOR.
 
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