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Monte or anyonelse who knows please
- Thread starter findit
- Start date
referred to as ED-180 in Tesoro lingo, is this:
A minimum Discriminate setting which allows detection of ALL metal targets, both ferrous and non-ferrous, while still ignoring he ground signal. For me to believe a model provides a true full-range of acceptance it has to respond to a low-conductive magnetic-based target in ALL positions, AND it needs to be able to ignore a couple of inches of very challenging dense mineralization and still respond to ALL metal targets, especially coins, buttons, tokens, etc.
[quote findit]Monte you mentioned the compadre has true ed180 but the cibola doesn't can you explain? the cibola say's it comes with ed 180 but i did not know there is a difference[/quote]Yes, there is a difference. Because most metal detector electronic engineers and manufacturers, as individuals, do not actually get out to do any serious metal detecting, they have to rely on "book theory" and what feedback they get from the field. Sometimes they just don't get it right, for a number of reasons, but many (most, probably) hobbyists wouldn't know the difference anyway because they just go by what is printed and do not fully understand the dynamics of what makes a metal detector detect ... not detect.
[quote tabdog]Monte says that there is a difference in the circuitry that allows the Compadre to adjust a little lower. My Cibola will pick up very small pieces of iron or steel. I have recovered a beebe that was half rusted away with it. It had been rolling around in the sand and did not have an aura around it. I don't know how much lower you can get. I admit there was some rejection when I retrieved the beebe but I was able to get a signal that I could pin point.[/quote]David, there is a definite difference in the circuitry of these two models. Differences, in fact, between many models, and some will adjust lower than others, to be sure.
Most targets will not have an "aura" about them. Believe me, the "aura" or "halo" topic is also misunderstood and often misquoted. That you found a bee-bee in the sand tells me that you also might have some relatively mellow sand to hunt in (not too high in iron mineralization, aka black sand) and you also noted that after recovery you were able to get a better signal. This is often a case where a detector is designed and promoted based upon what it does in a "bench test" or in a controlled environment under ideal conditions. Generally an "in air" test.
Here are two simple quick "ir tests" to help learn more about your Cibola or Silver
A minimum Discriminate setting which allows detection of ALL metal targets, both ferrous and non-ferrous, while still ignoring he ground signal. For me to believe a model provides a true full-range of acceptance it has to respond to a low-conductive magnetic-based target in ALL positions, AND it needs to be able to ignore a couple of inches of very challenging dense mineralization and still respond to ALL metal targets, especially coins, buttons, tokens, etc.
[quote findit]Monte you mentioned the compadre has true ed180 but the cibola doesn't can you explain? the cibola say's it comes with ed 180 but i did not know there is a difference[/quote]Yes, there is a difference. Because most metal detector electronic engineers and manufacturers, as individuals, do not actually get out to do any serious metal detecting, they have to rely on "book theory" and what feedback they get from the field. Sometimes they just don't get it right, for a number of reasons, but many (most, probably) hobbyists wouldn't know the difference anyway because they just go by what is printed and do not fully understand the dynamics of what makes a metal detector detect ... not detect.
[quote tabdog]Monte says that there is a difference in the circuitry that allows the Compadre to adjust a little lower. My Cibola will pick up very small pieces of iron or steel. I have recovered a beebe that was half rusted away with it. It had been rolling around in the sand and did not have an aura around it. I don't know how much lower you can get. I admit there was some rejection when I retrieved the beebe but I was able to get a signal that I could pin point.[/quote]David, there is a definite difference in the circuitry of these two models. Differences, in fact, between many models, and some will adjust lower than others, to be sure.
Most targets will not have an "aura" about them. Believe me, the "aura" or "halo" topic is also misunderstood and often misquoted. That you found a bee-bee in the sand tells me that you also might have some relatively mellow sand to hunt in (not too high in iron mineralization, aka black sand) and you also noted that after recovery you were able to get a better signal. This is often a case where a detector is designed and promoted based upon what it does in a "bench test" or in a controlled environment under ideal conditions. Generally an "in air" test.
Here are two simple quick "ir tests" to help learn more about your Cibola or Silver
For one thing, the particular detector model used, but also the settings used, and even the coil used can make a lot of difference.
[quote tabdog]I'm amazed! I already knew what a bolt and a nail sounded like but I never realized that I could not pick it up moving side ways. I thought for sure it would hit on the ends. Now I'm confused.
Do the two signals on each end of the nail cancel each other out as they move under the coil simultaneously?[/quote]For all but one of the people who I involved in my detector evaluations for 2 months, some of these little "bench-test" and "in-the-field" were total eye openers! I am including metal detector dealers, newcomers and some rather experienced detectorists, too.
If you were using an All Metal Accept motion discriminator w/stock 8" or 8x9 coil, and with the Disc. level set at the minimum setting, a nail moved passed the search coil's center axis cross-wise (with the nail pointed to the front and rear as if laying on the ground), might give a single audio 'beep.' If the iron nail is moved past the coil's center axis as if it were lying on the ground and you swept over it lengthwise (going from the nail tip to the nail head and visa-versa), you might expect to get a double-beep. This is caused by the presentation of the shape of the target relative to the electromagnetic field. It doesn't always happen, but quite often it will, depending upon the coil, the size of the nail, and the coil-to-target distance, etc.
You stated you could not pick it up "sideways". I'm not sure of what you're describing as 'sideways' but I can tell you this:
IF your detector has a TRUE all metal accept, full-range discriminate adjustment (in Tesoro lingo that is ED-180)
... and ...
IF you have the discrimination set low to accept all metal targets
... and ...
IF you present the iron nail and
[quote tabdog]I'm amazed! I already knew what a bolt and a nail sounded like but I never realized that I could not pick it up moving side ways. I thought for sure it would hit on the ends. Now I'm confused.
Do the two signals on each end of the nail cancel each other out as they move under the coil simultaneously?[/quote]For all but one of the people who I involved in my detector evaluations for 2 months, some of these little "bench-test" and "in-the-field" were total eye openers! I am including metal detector dealers, newcomers and some rather experienced detectorists, too.If you were using an All Metal Accept motion discriminator w/stock 8" or 8x9 coil, and with the Disc. level set at the minimum setting, a nail moved passed the search coil's center axis cross-wise (with the nail pointed to the front and rear as if laying on the ground), might give a single audio 'beep.' If the iron nail is moved past the coil's center axis as if it were lying on the ground and you swept over it lengthwise (going from the nail tip to the nail head and visa-versa), you might expect to get a double-beep. This is caused by the presentation of the shape of the target relative to the electromagnetic field. It doesn't always happen, but quite often it will, depending upon the coil, the size of the nail, and the coil-to-target distance, etc.
You stated you could not pick it up "sideways". I'm not sure of what you're describing as 'sideways' but I can tell you this:
IF your detector has a TRUE all metal accept, full-range discriminate adjustment (in Tesoro lingo that is ED-180)
... and ...
IF you have the discrimination set low to accept all metal targets
... and ...
IF you present the iron nail and
[quote tabdog]I air tested My Cibola with a 3.5" nail and a 1/4" bolt by 1" long with a 1/2" nut on the end.
The Cibola was set at max sensitivity, (I tried Max and proper tuning on threshold) and the discriminator was turned all the way down. The 5.75" concentric coil was used for test.
When running the nail and bolt length wise across the coil, I would here a double beep.
When running the nail and bolt across the coil with the end pointing at the coil and perpendicular to the coil's axis, I would get a single beep.
When running the nail and bolt across the coil with the object being perpendicular to the direction of the swing, I did not get a beep at all. To my amazement.[/quote]Interesting, isn't it?
Certianly demonstrates that it can't be a true ED-180, all metal accept discrimination circuit or it would have sounded off on each position with that target.
I used a dealer's personal Cibola and stock 8x9 coil, full sensitivity, 'proper' slight audio Threshold of sound and with the Disc. control set at 'minimum' it would not respond each sweep to the nail OR bolt/nut combo if they were in a perpendicular position, as if stick in the ground relative to a coils sweep.
Knowing that it was easy for me to figure that his and another Cibola we used for evaluations wouldn't handle the high mineralization very well.
The Cibola is a nice improvement over some former models, to be sure, but many people also realize that "book theory" isn't always correct, either. The Cibola adjusts lower in the Disc. mode than the Silver
The Cibola was set at max sensitivity, (I tried Max and proper tuning on threshold) and the discriminator was turned all the way down. The 5.75" concentric coil was used for test.
When running the nail and bolt length wise across the coil, I would here a double beep.
When running the nail and bolt across the coil with the end pointing at the coil and perpendicular to the coil's axis, I would get a single beep.
When running the nail and bolt across the coil with the object being perpendicular to the direction of the swing, I did not get a beep at all. To my amazement.[/quote]Interesting, isn't it?
Certianly demonstrates that it can't be a true ED-180, all metal accept discrimination circuit or it would have sounded off on each position with that target.I used a dealer's personal Cibola and stock 8x9 coil, full sensitivity, 'proper' slight audio Threshold of sound and with the Disc. control set at 'minimum' it would not respond each sweep to the nail OR bolt/nut combo if they were in a perpendicular position, as if stick in the ground relative to a coils sweep.
Knowing that it was easy for me to figure that his and another Cibola we used for evaluations wouldn't handle the high mineralization very well.
The Cibola is a nice improvement over some former models, to be sure, but many people also realize that "book theory" isn't always correct, either. The Cibola adjusts lower in the Disc. mode than the Silver
they must get more competitive in the Target ID field. No manufacturer of any size and quality of workmanship produces so many models that lack visual Target ID, and some with audio Tone ID. I was hoping, really hoping, that I would have seen a package similar to the Minelab X-Terra concept come from Tesoro. Not the frequency-based-coil business, just a large, easy-to-read display with very functional notch segments, Target Reference Numbers, and ample Tone ID choices, and a Ground balance system that actually works well, and quite fast.
If Tesoro produced something along the lines of the X-Terra 70 with their better rod design and better coil selection, I think they would have a winner.
But they need to make a solid built, fully-functional TID model with operator adjusted GB that's tied to both modes, and a good display, and keep the weight down. I am not joking when I say I especially wish it is Tesoro who will give us something new and improved and exciting in the way of TID. AND, that they do it soon!
Monte
If Tesoro produced something along the lines of the X-Terra 70 with their better rod design and better coil selection, I think they would have a winner.
But they need to make a solid built, fully-functional TID model with operator adjusted GB that's tied to both modes, and a good display, and keep the weight down. I am not joking when I say I especially wish it is Tesoro who will give us something new and improved and exciting in the way of TID. AND, that they do it soon!
Monte
Hey Monte i thought you said the vaquero has true ed-180, but as srd1941 said the eldorado has a lower degree of acceptance. i thought all detectors with true ed-180 have equal acceptance or is there still a difference? and if so which ones have in order lowest to highest? and as he said what are the advantages?
Jackpine Savage
Active member
Hi Monte,
Do you feel that there are other design factors that influence a detectors bad ground performance other than simply having true all metal acceptance range in disc mode? Preset GB machines aside.
Tom
Do you feel that there are other design factors that influence a detectors bad ground performance other than simply having true all metal acceptance range in disc mode? Preset GB machines aside.
Tom
Gunnar of bradford MN
New member
n/t
Gunnar of bradford MN
New member
n/t
[quote findit]Hey Monte i thought you said the vaquero has true ed-180, but as srd1941 said the eldorado has a lower degree of acceptance. i thought all detectors with true ed-180 have equal acceptance or is there still a difference? and if so which ones have in order lowest to highest? and as he said what are the advantages?[/quote]As most know, I sometimes tend to write (type) a little lengthy, and I do try to proofread before I post, but I might miss something.
One thing that I had missed was my reference to the Vaquero. In doing my recent 2-month evaluations I only had access to three Cibola's to compare at all my sites. Why? Because most of the Tesoro dealers who helped me out on this project have limited their Tesoro inventory and only carry models such as the Compadre, Silver
One thing that I had missed was my reference to the Vaquero. In doing my recent 2-month evaluations I only had access to three Cibola's to compare at all my sites. Why? Because most of the Tesoro dealers who helped me out on this project have limited their Tesoro inventory and only carry models such as the Compadre, Silver