MINELAB REFUSES AFTERMARKET COIL PROUCTION

[cannonball]

JUST FOUND OUT THAT MINELAB DECIDED TO RE-NEG WITH THE AFTERMARKET COIL MANUFACTURERES AND WILL NOT PROVIDE THE CHIP AND ENGINEERING INFORMATION TO THE THREE MINELAB AFTERMAKET COIL MAKERS.
The chip is required to make each coil work and without it making an aftermarkt coil would be very, very difficult. So this means that all coil selections you have and will have will be made by Minelab, exclusively. Requests for information on product support and new coils from the MFGR introduced a whole lot of air into the conversation.

The good news is we can wait and see what this brilliant Macavaelian marketing genius brings us for selection.

as they say down there, Cheers!

Cannonball

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

I wonder why I am not surprised.
Mick Evans.

 

[BarnacleBill]

Any company that spends R&D money should be required to hand that technology over to companies that compete against them, and those other coil companies DO compete against ML. I haven't noticed Apple computer exactly rushing over to Microsoft to offer up the keys to their i-pod technology.

If I spent the time & money to develop a metal detector, I would certainly not feel any obligation to turn that technology over to Sunray. It would be MY technology to do what I damn well pleased with. As a business decision I may or may not decide to, depending on what I feel is going to make ME the most money.

And you also don't know what has gone on behind the scenes with these other coil companies such as:

A. ML may have asked for certain licensing fees they were un-willing to meet.
B. ML may have asked for certain intellectual property protections which they could not or would not meet.
C. ML may be waiting for patents to clear before releasing the info which can take years, especially international patents.

The X-terra machines were released about a year ago and there are now 3 concentric & 2 DD coils for them, as well as a small coil in development. These other coil companies did not develop their assortment of coils overnight, those assortments took years for machines that have been in existence a long time.

So if your beef is that ML is not making the coil YOU want, well guess what, there's no guarantee that these other companies are going to make them either. Not unless you're willing to fund the cannonball signature series out of your own pocket. And by the way I waited a long time for a small Fisher coil, and know for certain they will NEVER release a small DD. Also the Teknetics T2 has been out as long as the X-Terras and there are how many coils for it .....uuuuhhh 1(one)UNO.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[Ralph Sun Ray]

BarnacleBill and anyone else interested,

Just to set the record straight, the technology was offered to us by the Minelab CEO while he was in the states a few months ago. He was to e-mail us in approximately two months and let us know that the approval had been finalized and that a licensing agreement would be forthcoming along with the price of the micro chip which we would be purchasing direct from Minelab in Australia. We would also have had access to Minelab engineers if the need arose. Our main interest was in producing an in-line probe, rather than coils. When the e-mail came about a month ago, we were informed that Minelab had decided not to license the technology outside of the company. We have plenty to do so it was not that big of a deal for us.

Also, in my personal conversation with the Minelab CEO he acknowledged Sun Rays contribution to Minelab with our accessories and said our company was an asset (not a liability) to them as we helped to promote their detectors, etc.

As for us taking years to come up with aftermarket coils, that may be true in a couple of instances (example would be the Coinstrike). However, Sun Ray was the first company to produce an aftermarket coil for the original Sovereign (at the time Minelab only had an 8" coil) and also was first to produce an aftermarket coil for the Explorer when it first came out (they only had the stock 10.5").

Our opinion is that Minelab has a right to do whatever they wish with their detectors and/or technology and we have no hard feelings concerning their decision.

Ralph (Sun Ray)
Sun Ray Detector Electronics

 

[cannonball]

Hi Bill
First, I don't own the machine and am interested in it from a consumers point of view, as one who intends to buy. I looked at the Comadore 64, Atari ST , Imsa 8080 the same way; all of which owed their continued popularity, growth and support to enthusiastic owners.
As a consumer I am cautious of proprietary equipment that is more sizzle than steak. My post was a statement of fact. The reason all three minelab aftermarket coil mfgr's have been told that they will not be able to persue the making of the coils BY PERMISSION AS IMPLIED is not clear. It is Machiavelian brillance to lead one on and then pull the chair out as they sit to eat with you. HH Sorry you had to wait so long for the Fisher coil, and that there is no DD for it.
If the machine that is a swiss army knife for detecting is brought to market without the COILS that are it's VFLEX feature, then why make the machine? MARKETING IDEA: MAKE ONE MACHINE AND MANY COILS TO SELL, TO GIVE IT UNIVERSAL APPEAL. Would you not bring the whole pig to market? (A pig that good is not eaten all at once.) Just what is VFLEX? Is it marketing hype like audio and musical amplifier gee-wiz names for distortion? Is it a real feature worth fancy pictures and new names to describe an electronic function? Or, is it a proprietary dead-end, near-orphined technology? Where is the beef Bill? Hell all I want is to see is the PIG. They have had a year, so why do they not openly tell the owners what they can ask santa for this year? Minelab has some good engineers that are at the whims of marketing monkeys:=)
hh jim
ps WHAT IS A FISHER?

 

[Farmercal]

n/t

 

[BarnacleBill]

your description is not unusual as to the dance that goes on between core and accessory product manufacturers. The deal has to make sense for both parties involved, and that does not mean that in the future ML may not change their minds.

At a trade show 8 weeks ago we were approached by another company with interest in one of our technologies. 5 weeks ago they sent 3 top execs to visit our facility. 4 weeks ago they said thank you very much but we'll not be doing any business with you at this time. Yesterday they requested that we sign an NDA to quote on a design......the dance goes on.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[BarnacleBill]

ML decided to assign to a coil technology they developed. The IC(chip) allows the coil to identify itself to the detector, in essence a handshake that tells the machine what frequency it is, and MAY(I don't know for sure) even tell the machine it's specific type i.e. DD/Concentric and size.

Coil design can be a very painstaking effort, having a great effect on machine performance, and in a VDI type machine the accuracy of the visual target ID. Up until the release of the X-Terra's there were a few selectable frequency machines i.e. White's DFX. But attempting to do three selectable frequencies in a variety of coil types needed a new solution. So in essence a smart coil that identifies itself was developed.

If you go back through the posts on this forum some of the early concerns of the experienced posters was how accurate and consistent was the target ID across the variety of coils offered. The results were apparently to their liking as they found that the VFLEX idea worked quite well with little variance.

Development costs for coils are very high compared to the return on that investment. Therefore if a company produces a new line of machines and complete coil complement at once, they risk losing their shirt if the machine does not turn out to be popular. You also don't want to hold back the release of the machine while you finish the coils, because that's a lot of R&D money sitting there that you are possibly paying interest on while waiting for all the coils to be done.

Meanwhile besides the X-Terras and coils for them, ML in the last year has released an updated Explorer design, and a complete re-design of their prospecting machine the GPX 4000. They have been very busy, much busier than any other detector manufacturer.

If you are going to hold ML to a standard on coil releases then I suggest examining all the blank sheet machine designs, and see what those other companies did for coils.

Here's a recent blank sheet Coin/Relic machine design list:
Garrett ACE 250
Teknetics T2
Fisher Edge

I think you'll discover they have only provided a few ham-hocks.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[cannonball]

Thanks Bill

Very informative. As one who is familiar with antennas and radio electronics I have wondered why the function of coil ID was not done in a boot-up routine (trust me it can be done) at the head. Is the cable a power/data link? Dunno from the poor picture I saw at Kelly-co (just looking). Cannot get the featured info and product line on the ML web site and they sent me a link to a one page of GENERAL features. Why is it so hard to find out about?
The coil chip is unnessary if it's whole function is to capture a market- they will have to let loose some solid facts on exactly what it is that makes this function a valued asset. Marketing fluff and rewording electronic features only fogs the understanding of consumers that can read- even if they don't understand the facts it's good promotion and honest. Whites does an engineering report and if it gets too proprietary, do a little side step- but they tell you they are. I think any chineez company that wants to know the secrets are going to disect it and monkey-shine it. Consumers just like to be well informed. I like DSP and have used it to pull signals out of the mud (radio). Garrett tells you what DSP does for you; it is real DSP, not to be confused with moving one's and zero's in a chip!Time to milk the cows. Later.
Thank you and good hunting Bill.

 

[cannonball]

SORRY FOR ALL THE CONSTERNATION MY POSTS HAVE MADE. While trying to look at the Minelab Consumer site yet again, I could not view and toggle the features on the left of the screen to find any information on consumer products. So in wondering if the other two facets of the company were viewable, I looked around to see if I could view them. Audio amps for the home and high-end studio market and Anti-personnel mine detection. I was familiar with the detector that is now in production for land-mines by reading around the web but was not aware of Minelabs involvement. It is the mother of all detectors and will prove itself well in the field as it did in the tests. Some neat stuff and it is not secret- you just have to look around to put it together. Our troops and all international troops will benefit greatly from this machine and it's off springs- as will civilians in most of the world. I know a young man who was recently injured by an IED, and thank God he still has all his bit's 'n pieces. I used to make braces and prosthetic devices and have seen my share of the mayhem shrapnel can inflict, along with the disfigurements and amputations. This kind of injury has lasting effects on the injured and is seldom known to the public. As a hobbyist consumer in metal detecting, I think I can now understand any delays minelab may have to mount to deliver product. It has been a busy year for them and and looking back on the past two, they must have been busy too. I will restrain my aggressive interests now for keeping the beavers off the apple trees and keeping the voluminous amounts of rain water away from eroding the drive. Then I will sit down to a hearty meal of crow. HH
Good Hunting all and watch your step!
Jim

 

[Jackpine Savage]

Minelab certainly has a lot of irons in the fire. This news release was posted recently on another forum. Hopefully the de-mining techology will trickle down to hobby detectors as is hinted at.

http://www.ausindustry.gov.au/content/content.cfm?ObjectID=A22EEA7D-C458-46B8-9D461F606A923790&L3Keyword=technology

Tom

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

This has been quite an informative thread.While I'll agree that Minelab has the right to do anything they like with the technology they spend money on, and they have been very busy with what they are putting out; I personally think that they are shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing a company like coiltek to develop coils for them.I get the impression from the lack of posts on this forum for the last 4 or 5 months, preceded by the announce of people with the lack of coils that they have come out with, that it must be costing them a loss in sales of detectors, BIG TIME. While it takes time to develop coils, sometimes you have just got to know when it is time to get outside help. By doing this, then I think that they would have a healthier bottom line due to higher detector sales because their customer needs would be met.
Mick Evans.

 

[BarnacleBill]

Hello Mick,

At least for the X70 the following coils are currently available:

9" Concentric - 3kHz
9" Concentric - 7.5kHz
9" Concentric - 18.75kHz
10" Elliptical Double D - 18.75kHz
10.5" Double D Round - 7.5kHz
10.5" Double D Round - 18.75kHz

So the question becomes what other coils would there be a strong demand for? The only real obvious one would be a 5/6 inch concentric in 7.5kHz or something like a 4x6 DD in 7.5kHz, as either would work across all the X-Terra models. I don't think economically both make sense as one would eat into the sales of the other.

Looking to the larger sizes they already have 10.5 inch which is pretty standard fare as far as the larger coils supplied by most detector manufacturers. I'm willing to bet not many of the 10.5 inch are being sold by dealers. Going to 12 inch and above from a practical usage standpoint begins to present a weight distribution problem. Those that have used the 3kHz concentric notice the more nose heavy effect from the extra windings in that coil. As the machines are so lightweight I can imagine something like a 15 inch would be gruesome enough, that users would find it uncomfortable after a short period of time. I can't see something like that being a big seller no matter who made it.

One of the more difficult aspects of this is that if you ask 10 detectorsists which coils they want, you get 10 different answers. Many times their answers are based on a favorite coil they have/had on a particular machine. So I imagine you have a #1 choice that you would like to have, which may be #8 on my list. If I were able to convince ML to do a production run of 500 coils of my favorite that they then sell 3 of, they quickly learn that just because a few detectorists make a lot of noise, they don't buy a large quantity of the coils they are asking for.

So aside from a small coil which ML is working on, which coils in order of preference do you see a compelling need for Mick?

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[Kelley (Texas)]

Only Minelab can say why one has yet to be offered to the X-Terra owners...and they have offered no explanation or communication on the subject other than stating that one is being tested.

 

[cannonball]

I agree with most of the points you have made from a manufacturer's point of view, but I hope ML has the ear the of consumers. The X-70 is the top-of-the-line X series machine and all I know is that it offers the flexibility of the use in 3kHz as opposed to the other two models. This is of interest to me as a consumer and I would think that this feature, that makes it stand apart from the others would be the feature of emphasis- it is the top of the line. My conclusion is that despite the added weight to a 3kHz coil, this feature would be exploited by the users and the after-market coil manufacturers to enjoy this benefit. That is why I wanted to know if there would be after-market coils available.
It sounds like VFLEX is promoted as the ability to change coils on the machine for different frequencies, while also hinting to the benefit of DSP (Digital Signal Processing) in the same frame. How these two features are related seems remote, though they are required for it to operate. I do not think that DSP is done at the coil. DSP cleans up the signal in the receiver's circuit to make good sense out of noise. How the machine works is shrouded in speculation, due to lack of technical information. I may be wrong and welcome the factory to speak-up. My impression is that VFLEX is a marketing 'concept', and copy was written by the technically challenged. I am willing to be proved wrong.
As for a smaller coil still being in a testing stage, I would think that they would have done their homework before production and delays in delivery should be communicated no matter what the reason. Holiday 'special' inventory was the factory's focus. The fact that there will be no after-market coils for 3kHz, has stalled my interest in purchasing the top of the line X series, and without ML communicating intent and delivery to allow one to further exploit this feature, it is most uncertain. 3Khz is an awesome frequency and will prove it's worth in a larger coil.
Respectfully, Jim

 

[plugger]

 

[Mick in Dubbo]

Hi Bill.
All of these coils have one thing in common. They are all about the same size. I think that it would make sense that you would make at least a small coil, a standard coil and a large coil, probably in the medium frequency so that they would fit most machines. After that, you should have a fairly good idea of what specialty coils will be needed, so you would make them at that point.
Personally, my main beef with Minelab, is that they are absolutely hopeless when it comes to customer/trade relationships, when it comes to customer requests as to what to expect when they buy something new like the X-Terra. If it takes a year or two to develop good coils, then so be it.But when your customers want to know what to expect from you down the track, then I think that is good relationship building to let them know that you are trying to address that particular need or not, but that it might take a while. To say absolutely nothing, like they do, in my opinion, is disrespectful to you clients. After all, we are the end user, and as such, need to make decisions as to what we are going to use, and what comes with it to help us to enjoy this great hobby. If we feel that we are not valued by a company, then people move on. This is what I feel has happened and that is possibly why the number of posts here has dropped off lately. Yeah, I know that an argument could be put up, that the novelty of a new detector has worn off and that could be a contributing factor, but I think, as others that make a living here in Oz out of this industry, that Minelab communicate poorly.It would be nice to see them address this, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.
Mick Evans.

 

[BJ in Okla.]

Told me that there would be a small coil by last spring,Wong.Minelab has made other coils for the X-terra and another x-terra, the 70.Then they make another Explorer and still no small coil.After I bought my X-Teras, they drop the price.That makes a guy feel good toward Minelab.No way would I have bought my X-Terras, if I knew it was going to take this long.I have used Soverign's and the Explorer for years and Minelab never made a small coil for them.I will wait a little longer and if Minelab does not make a small coil, then I will sell them and take the loss and never buy Minelab again.I am glad that I never sold my CZ.The places that I hunt a 8" & 5" coil is all I need. HH. BJ

 

[plugger]

n/t

 

[Marti S (CA)]

Kelley,

That sure sounds like "communication" to me!!!

I think others on this forum got it right....they're damn busy this year what with the new SE and everything...I'm sure the coil will come.
My granpappy used say "all good things will come to those who wait"

Mart S (CA)