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Minelab Manticore

I just wish Minelab would post more videos and info about the Manticore. Its like they've been on 'radio silence' for the last month or even longer. I've even considered pulling my Manticore order if they aren't going to keep me informed about the machine and release prognosis. It's frustrating.
 
nwdetectorist said:
...I can tell when a VDI does not match up with the tones I am hearing...
Click to expand...

I was of the impression that on the EQX, the tones relate DIRECTLY to the VDI -- a "one-to-one" correlation. In other words, if using 50-tones, we know that each of the 50 VDI numbers has a tone attached to it...AND, I thought it was the case with the EQX that the same algorithm that assigns a "tone," also assigns a "VDI." So, a 25 VDI has a "25" tone, a 26 VDI has a slightly higher-pitched "26" tone, etc. I do NOT think, but may be mistaken, that the machine has two different discrimination algorithms, i.e. that a "VDI" algorithm could assign a "25" to a target, but that there is a separate discrimination algorithm used for assigning tones, such that the same "25 VDI" target might get assigned a "26" or a "27" tone...

Now, even IF my understanding there is correct (and if someone can correct me, that would be great), that is NOT to say that there couldn't be a "nuance" in the tone that can be heard to help differentiate different traits of the target. In other words, the actual "pitch" of the tone would still be the same, but there may be some more subtle nuances that can be heard (duration of the tone, "loudness" of the tone, etc. etc.) A great example of this is a crushed can. While a shallow crushed can my offer the exact same VDI as a shallow quarter, AND the same "pitch" of tone thus assigned to the same target, you can still hear differences in the two -- the "loudness" of the tone, the "duration" of the tone, and perhaps a couple of other subtleties. But, I don't THINK it's the case (and again, perhaps someone can correct me) that you have one "VDI" algorithm that calculates a "number" for the target, and then a separate discrimination algorithm that calculates a "sound" for the target. The two SHOULD match, unless I'm mistaken...

Steve
 
sgoss66 said:
I was of the impression that on the EQX, the tones relate DIRECTLY to the VDI -- a "one-to-one" correlation. In other words, if using 50-tones, we know that each of the 50 VDI numbers has a tone attached to it...AND, I thought it was the case with the EQX that the same algorithm that assigns a "tone," also assigns a "VDI." So, a 25 VDI has a "25" tone, a 26 VDI has a slightly higher-pitched "26" tone, etc. I do NOT think, but may be mistaken, that the machine has two different discrimination algorithms, i.e. that a "VDI" algorithm could assign a "25" to a target, but that there is a separate discrimination algorithm used for assigning tones, such that the same "25 VDI" target might get assigned a "26" or a "27" tone...

Now, even IF my understanding there is correct (and if someone can correct me, that would be great), that is NOT to say that there couldn't be a "nuance" in the tone that can be heard to help differentiate different traits of the target. In other words, the actual "pitch" of the tone would still be the same, but there may be some more subtle nuances that can be heard (duration of the tone, "loudness" of the tone, etc. etc.) A great example of this is a crushed can. While a shallow crushed can my offer the exact same VDI as a shallow quarter, AND the same "pitch" of tone thus assigned to the same target, you can still hear differences in the two -- the "loudness" of the tone, the "duration" of the tone, and perhaps a couple of other subtleties. But, I don't THINK it's the case (and again, perhaps someone can correct me) that you have one "VDI" algorithm that calculates a "number" for the target, and then a separate discrimination algorithm that calculates a "sound" for the target. The two SHOULD match, unless I'm mistaken...

Steve
Click to expand...
Not sure if we would be able to tell the difference by ear on the pitch difference between say a 45,46,47 tone45 tone46 tone47 outside in the open or with bt headphones i don’t think thats the way it was intended but i could be wrong
 
DigDog said:
Not sure if we would be able to tell the difference by ear on the pitch difference between say a 45,46,47 tone45 tone46 tone47 outside in the open or with bt headphones i don’t think thats the way it was intended but i could be wrong
Click to expand...
DigDog -- I am nearly certain that that iss the way it works, i.e. every VDI on the EQX has a corresponding tone; as VDI increases, the pitch (frequency) of the tone increases slightly, also. That's how the tones are assigned, on the EQX, and that's why there are 50 VDI numbers (-9 to 40), AND 50 tones available. I don't think that's in question, I think the only thing that is in question is whether there are two different, independent "discrimination" algorithms -- one that assigns a number, and one that assigns a tone, such that at times the number assigned as an ID for a target is DIFFERENT from the tone assigned to the target.

Anyway, as far as the tones go, I am not sure if EVERYONE can hear the difference, from one tone to the next, slightly higher-pitched tone, but I know that I can, and know that many others can, as well. It's been discussed frequently on the forums, and what it seems may possibly be the case, is that folks who are more "musically inclined," and can hear small differences in pitch (frequency) often prefer to use "50 tones," SPECIFICALLY so that they can hear these subtle tonal changes. Others, though, who don't have as much ability to hear these subtle differences in pitch/frequency, often opt for, say "5-tones."

Steve
 
sgoss66 said:
DigDog -- I am nearly certain that that iss the way it works, i.e. every VDI on the EQX has a corresponding tone; as VDI increases, the pitch (frequency) of the tone increases slightly, also. That's how the tones are assigned, on the EQX, and that's why there are 50 VDI numbers (-9 to 40), AND 50 tones available. I don't think that's in question, I think the only thing that is in question is whether there are two different, independent "discrimination" algorithms -- one that assigns a number, and one that assigns a tone, such that at times the number assigned as an ID for a target is DIFFERENT from the tone assigned to the target.

Anyway, as far as the tones go, I am not sure if EVERYONE can hear the difference, from one tone to the next, slightly higher-pitched tone, but I know that I can, and know that many others can, as well. It's been discussed frequently on the forums, and what it seems may possibly be the case, is that folks who are more "musically inclined," and can hear small differences in pitch (frequency) often prefer to use "50 tones," SPECIFICALLY so that they can hear these subtle tonal changes. Others, though, who don't have as much ability to hear these subtle differences in pitch/frequency, often opt for, say "5-tones."

Steve
Click to expand...
Well thats why i ask. Personally i cant hear the subtle differences when they are that close together. Not knocking anything i just can’t hear it, so its difficult for me to understand.
Im sure many people can tune a guitar by ear im just not one of them. Just as its probably hard for you to understand why i can’t hear it.
As you say some are musically inclined some aren’t so for those of us that aren’t the numbers are very useful but 60tones, 90tones are not.
As ive said and some can’t understand why I don’t use all the adjustments with tones and such and say well then you should have just bought a simple turn on and go detector.
I still want alot of the other features not available on those detectors like ability to change frequencies, ground balance, etc.
Im just starting to come around to using vdi and numbers to determine targets which makes it more interesting but as for tones for me anyway just a handful of tones with big differences in sound and pitch is easier to understand as i cant hear the subtle differences.
I have bad tinnitus, and frequent ear infections if you never experienced it is a constant high pitched ringing in my ears and a painful,pressure water logged feeling so its more than just the lack of “talent” but a hindering medical condition as well.
Just the other day in bed heard like a air hose leaking sound in my ear.
 
DigDog, totally understood, about you being unable to discern slight/subtle pitch differences. Yes, I can tune a guitar by ear, and yet on the other hand, my wife is essentially "tone-deaf," and she'd tell you that (so I am not picking on her, LOL).

I completely understand your perspective -- which I am sure is only made worse with your ear infections and tinnitus. I think the moral of the story is that Minelab is giving us multiple ways to try to determine the possible characteristics of a target under the coil -- tonally, numerically, and now also as a plot on a 2D screen. I think this can only help us all, NO MATTER whether we are good, or not as good, at discerning pitch/tone subtleties.

Steve
 
sgoss66 said:
DigDog, totally understood, about you being unable to discern slight/subtle pitch differences. Yes, I can tune a guitar by ear, and yet on the other hand, my wife is essentially "tone-deaf," and she'd tell you that (so I am not picking on her, LOL).

I completely understand your perspective -- which I am sure is only made worse with your ear infections and tinnitus. I think the moral of the story is that Minelab is giving us multiple ways to try to determine the possible characteristics of a target under the coil -- tonally, numerically, and now also as a plot on a 2D screen. I think this can only help us all, NO MATTER whether we are good, or not as good, at discerning pitch/tone subtleties.

Steve
Click to expand...
Any additional information we can get is always helpful
Technology will change im sure
I can see the next generation of detectors will probably be something like just a rod and coil with all the necessary hardware built into the coil and we just use an app on our cell phones that processes all the information and displays it.
Amazing how what used to require a big heavy box to do is now in a small light box about the size of a cell phone mounted on the shaft or even detachable and can be put in a pocket.
Maybe one day we will have something that is sort of a real time xray seeing into the ground.
Who knows what technology is ahead
 
On the Kellyco website: Manticore does not have an arrival date yet and we expect early 2023, but we will update this page as soon as we get word from Minelab.
 
Aparently, a small quantity have already arrived, and people were scalping them for almost double the cost of a new one.
Unbelievable,.
 
Someone in Europe was already saying they were going to buy one and flip it to pay for theirs like they did with the Nox. Im sure they are not the only one
 
sgoss66 said:
DigDog, totally understood, about you being unable to discern slight/subtle pitch differences. Yes, I can tune a guitar by ear, and yet on the other hand, my wife is essentially "tone-deaf," and she'd tell you that (so I am not picking on her, LOL).

I completely understand your perspective -- which I am sure is only made worse with your ear infections and tinnitus. I think the moral of the story is that Minelab is giving us multiple ways to try to determine the possible characteristics of a target under the coil -- tonally, numerically, and now also as a plot on a 2D screen. I think this can only help us all, NO MATTER whether we are good, or not as good, at discerning pitch/tone subtleties.

Steve
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you say and makes sense but here is the thing not everyone can afford the ridiculous new prices. I like ML had three of them in the past. The NM legend for example is great for the money. Most cases probably preforms close to the Nox 800. So for some is a great option. Can you get a used Nox for the same price sure but just like a used car any history, issues is unknown. Being previously in car sales most people don’t trade in a perfectly good car especially if its paid for. So that option is not preferred by everyone. Some would prefer a brand new Hyundai than a used Toyota and thats fine. Toyota owners shouldn’t mock Hyundai or its owners for being happy driving it. Thats just being a arrogant ahole.
In this industry all features being equal, better, is just perspective. There are way too many variables to make a good comparison. Unfortunately there is alot of bias and self serving interests.
Society is very divided and entrenched at every level. Throw money and greed into the mix and it’s never a good thing.
Time will tell if its worth the money to those who don’t have alot of money to throw around.
 
DigDog said:
I agree with everything you say and makes sense but here is the thing not everyone can afford the ridiculous new prices. I like ML had three of them in the past. The NM legend for example is great for the money. Most cases probably preforms close to the Nox 800. So for some is a great option. Can you get a used Nox for the same price sure but just like a used car any history, issues is unknown. Being previously in car sales most people don’t trade in a perfectly good car especially if its paid for. So that option is not preferred by everyone. Some would prefer a brand new Hyundai than a used Toyota and thats fine. Toyota owners shouldn’t mock Hyundai or its owners for being happy driving it. Thats just being a arrogant ahole.
In this industry all features being equal, better, is just perspective. There are way too many variables to make a good comparison. Unfortunately there is alot of bias and self serving interests.
Society is very divided and entrenched at every level. Throw money and greed into the mix and it’s never a good thing.
Time will tell if its worth the money to those who don’t have alot of money to throw around.
Click to expand...
DigDog -- agree with everything you say here. And I hope you didn't think I was "pushing" the Manticore, or implying that someone should swing a Minelab, vs. any other brand. That was not something I was saying at all, and if it sounded that way, my apologies.
When I said that it would "help us all" to have both improved tonal options AND the on-screen graphics offered by the Manticore, I was saying "help us all" in the sense that it would work well for folks that ARE musically inclined, AND would work well for those who aren't, but instead are more "visual" in how they absorb information. That's what I meant by "help us all." But as you note, this is also a $1600USD machine, which is alot of money, for most of us. And with new NM Legends available at roughly $1000 less, it's debatable whether any improvement to be had, between the Legend, and the Manticore, would be worth that substantial increase in cost. No debate there whatsoever. I understand your point, and many of us don't just have $1600 to flippantly plop down on a new machine, myself included. My apologies if you were in some way offended with my post.

Steve
 
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