MDing without permit - ??

[TreasurdiggrNY]

Hey Mirco,
I know 2 parks were removed from the list. When I got the notice about the 2 parks I emailed every NYC Council Member in the 5 Boros and the Parks Dept. Commissioner in an effort to get them back, what did you do?.

I encouraged many others to do the same, some have, some say you can't fight the system. I doubt Owl's Head Park will ever be allowed. I met with the Parks Dept. Director at Owl's Head Park to discuss the problems they're having there, I can see why it's off the list, can you?

Prospect Park is the other park, I am drafting a letter to go out to the attorney I spoke to who represents the 5 NYC Council Members who make up the Committee on Parks and Recreation as well as the Parks Commissioner. I feel we have a better chance with maybe having the park put back on the list, do you know why? I didn't think so.

Instead of caring or doing anything about the laws above I'm guessing you just want to know what the penalty is if you get caught by the brave police doing a quick 20 minute hunt at either of these locations right? That's what I thought.

Good Luck,
Glenn

Just spoke to a lawyer. The answer was - "As long as an activity (MDing) is not included in the publicly displayed list of activities that are prohibited in a beach or park by all legal norms this activity (MDing) is considered NOT PROHIBITED. Period. And any charge, fine, ticket or any other punishment will be successfully challenged in the Court."

So, your advice was intentionally misleading, Sir.

Keep on doing smart things. Good luck.

So I'm guessing that in the future when ALL the NYC Parks have these publicly displayed signs prohibiting the use of metal detectors we can thank you and your lawyer.

Have to go now, I'm going down to the local tot lot and practice shooting my rifle and writing my name in urine, there is no publicly displayed sign prohibiting these activities so if I get a ticket I'll be in touch to get you're lawyers number, wish me luck

Glenn

 

[Mirco]

Hey Mirco,
I know 2 parks were removed from the list. When I got the notice about the 2 parks I emailed every NYC Council Member in the 5 Boros and the Parks Dept. Commissioner in an effort to get them back, what did you do?.

I encouraged many others to do the same, some have, some say you can't fight the system. I doubt Owl's Head Park will ever be allowed. I met with the Parks Dept. Director at Owl's Head Park to discuss the problems they're having there, I can see why it's off the list, can you?

Prospect Park is the other park, I am drafting a letter to go out to the attorney I spoke to who represents the 5 NYC Council Members who make up the Committee on Parks and Recreation as well as the Parks Commissioner. I feel we have a better chance with maybe having the park put back on the list, do you know why? I didn't think so.

Instead of caring or doing anything about the laws above I'm guessing you just want to know what the penalty is if you get caught by the brave police doing a quick 20 minute hunt at either of these locations right? That's what I thought.

Good Luck,
Glenn

Just spoke to a lawyer. The answer was - "As long as an activity (MDing) is not included in the publicly displayed list of activities that are prohibited in a beach or park by all legal norms this activity (MDing) is considered NOT PROHIBITED. Period. And any charge, fine, ticket or any other punishment will be successfully challenged in the Court."

So, your advice was intentionally misleading, Sir.

Keep on doing smart things. Good luck.

So I'm guessing that in the future when ALL the NYC Parks have these publicly displayed signs prohibiting the use of metal detectors we can thank you and your lawyer.

Have to go now, I'm going down to the local tot lot and practice shooting my rifle and writing my name in urine, there is no publicly displayed sign prohibiting these activities so if I get a ticket I'll be in touch to get you're lawyers number, wish me luck

Glenn

Those poor souls also did everything to be good and to please their city and county authorities. But it did not save them and they are told now TO DIG WITH PLASTIC SPOONS AND FORKS ONLY.

So, it is not about behaviour of MDers, but about a system trying to keep people down on their knees. And it needs to be fighted against vigorously. Challenging in the Court and in public rallies any frivolious ban, prohibition, punishment or any other lawless act of despotism and arbitrariness.

Not to send "emails". That nobody even cares to read.
***********************************************************************

I agree Dan,
Dane County WI started with an gentleman's aggreement on detecting in
Dane County parks a couple of years ago. The aggreement was with the
local metal detecting club and the county. I won't go into it right
now. As of this year, the City of Madison and Dane County parks have
gotten together to start a new "permit system" where they want to
charge $15 per detector operator and limit you to... get this,
digging with a PLASTIC SPOON OR FORK! This just... appeared out of
nowhere and our local club has not decided what approach to take to
deal with this idiocy. We will be having someone from County and
City Parks Dept at one of our meetings for sure.
***************************************************************************************************

 

[gobble-gobble]

n/t

 

[GRAY GHOST]

hi mirco. as much as you want to freely detect [nothin' wrong with that] there are laws that apply to nearly every different town, beach, and city you can think of. it's important to do your research first....research doesn't mean you only look at old maps to see the places you are interested in going to. it also involves the laws of the jurisdiction you want to hunt in, and land ownership laws in general.
you, as well as the hobby in general, are much better off to follow the rules and play fair. you know the right thing to do, mirco. this hobby requires a certain amount of morals, restraint, and judgement. every day, we are bombarded by news reports of people who persist in tainting our hobby. just what we need... more bad press, my friend.

as a nearly thirty year man in this great hobby, i've seen a lot come and go, both in the way of tech advances and people. the places that we can go to are quickly drying up, and for obvious reasons - especially in the big cities where five people whom we don't even know control our metal detecting destinies. they DON'T CARE if you can detect or not. it's easier for them to say no. so, i feel it's very important to make a good impression on others - before our rights are completely taken away.

it only takes one idiot to mess it up for everybody. just ask me, i'll be glad to tell you all about it. don't let your enthusiasm override your good sense. as an ambassador of our hobby, i would urge you to take a stand and do your best to be responsible and accountable, and recieve permission for wherever you wish to detect. the last thing you want is to tangle up with a bunch of cops and get a name. nothing less is acceptable, mirco. thanks, and hh,

 

[Mirco]

hi mirco. as much as you want to freely detect [nothin' wrong with that] there are laws that apply to nearly every different town, beach, and city you can think of. it's important to do your research first....research doesn't mean you only look at old maps to see the places you are interested in going to. it also involves the laws of the jurisdiction you want to hunt in, and land ownership laws in general.
you, as well as the hobby in general, are much better off to follow the rules and play fair. you know the right thing to do, mirco. this hobby requires a certain amount of morals, restraint, and judgement. every day, we are bombarded by news reports of people who persist in tainting our hobby. just what we need... more bad press, my friend.

as a nearly thirty year man in this great hobby, i've seen a lot come and go, both in the way of tech advances and people. the places that we can go to are quickly drying up, and for obvious reasons - especially in the big cities where five people whom we don't even know control our metal detecting destinies. they DON'T CARE if you can detect or not. it's easier for them to say no. so, i feel it's very important to make a good impression on others - before our rights are completely taken away.

it only takes one idiot to mess it up for everybody. just ask me, i'll be glad to tell you all about it. don't let your enthusiasm override your good sense. as an ambassador of our hobby, i would urge you to take a stand and do your best to be responsible and accountable, and recieve permission for wherever you wish to detect. the last thing you want is to tangle up with a bunch of cops and get a name. nothing less is acceptable, mirco. thanks, and hh,

Thank you for the wise words! I never illegally detected nor intended to detect without a permission and I have no idea why this schiz*******c keeps attacking me!!

The question was - In this country one can not do enough to be 100% sure that he/she does not violate any of the billions of often sensless rules, restrictions,regulations, prohibitions etc, which often contradict each other. And the question was of curiosity to know an approximate extent of punishment/victimization for something related to MDing activity (that is NOT specified or qualified as CRIMINAL activity neither in the Code nor in ANY legal written and officially, transparently, openly and publicly approved and justified instrument).

I myself too really hate ANY communication/contacts with our brave cops and I`d better stay in my back yard like the b***-n*** suggested than do something and as a result will have to talk to them. To me my personal and civil freedom and independence and peace of mind is ten times more important than this ridiculous mockery parody of "metal detecting" (a la USA) bringing to the hunter 10 cents clad per hour of hard work in a couple of restricted pre-determined closely monitored MD-reservations .

I am not concerned less about the massive anti-constitutional assault against our innocent and environmentally friendly and beneficial hobby and I would never endanger it. Not to worry! Thank you for warning anyway!
Ciao!
Mirco

God Bless Beloved Departments and Offices of Parks and Recreation!!!!!

 

[coinnut]

I have watched this post for a long time and finally decided to chime in. It's not about who's right or wrong. Is it wrong to ban detecting for no good reason? OF COURSE IT IS!!! But, is it better to take them on and fight it out and risk even more trouble? No it isn't! I hate when my rights are violated, but have found it is easier to talk with the right people (AS PEOPLE) before the incident takes place. A quick, nonchalant conversation with the dispatcher, or grounds keeper, goes a long way when approached by someone who questions your right to be there. It's about attitude. If I have permission to be somewhere and am approached by someone else questioning my RIGHT TO BE THERE, I calmly diffuse the conversation and start small talk and tell them that the park guys said its ok and I do a great job of clean up. I could have said MINE YOUR OWN BUSINESS, but that would lead to more trouble down the line. So instead of boldly screaming - YOU ARE VIOLATING MY RIGHTS, I calmly get to know the person who can permit me to go and detect. In other words I don't concentrate on the details and push my rights on them, because anyone in authority will take that as aggressive behavior and will push back. I just, as a matter of fact, ask---- "you guys don't mind if I detect for a bit at the park?" 9 out of 10 will say sure, go ahead. If I push it, I may get 3 out of 10. It's all in how you word it.. Pick your battles and don't mince words just for the sake of winning an argument.... save that for at home like I do Everyone needs to lighten up in this new tense world we have created. We have forgot how to be nice to each other and it shows in how the laws do not reflect common sense thinking. Just my thoughts (don't crucify me too hard). HH

 

[jmaryt]

no!. you are correct!..diplomacy is always easier on the blood pressure!..after all, no matter what the approach, if they tell you to "screw"..there's always the next park down the road!

(h.h!)
j.t.

 

[Mirco]

http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/753223.html



"By the way, never ask a bureaucrat permission to do anything because they

 

[Bernie]

I recently had a problem on a Vermont state beach where a ranger told me that there was no detecting allowed. (see my post under the Beach Detecting forum) I contacted the head of the state parks about the problem. He apologised and told me that detecting was expressly permitted on the beaches and that he appreciated the fact that most people detecting the beaches helped in cleaning up the trash on the beaches. There also was a post from a fellow from the Army Corps of Engineers. He said that detecting was expressly permitted on beaches under federal control, unless the site was a historic site.

 

[GOLD&OLDIES]

sounds pretty simple,make a few phone calls,you have a computer that will take you anywhere,find anything,and give you the right contacts,phone #'s and a wholle lot more to find the info and the laws,penalties you seek, SO USE IT !!! good luck and happy hunting ''mack ''

 

[GOLD&OLDIES]

n/t

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I never ask permission for any public park, school, beach, etc.... As long as it's not an obvious historical monument, and/or as long as it's not posted, I just go. To think you need to "ask" only pre-assumes that you, or your hobby, was so evil, you needed to ask, to begin with. I mean, would you ask to fly a kite? ask to do jumping jacks? (afterall, you can never be too sure, eh?). And no, I have not ever been given a ticket, or any such legal consequence. Sure, now and then some irate gardener or busy-body bored cop might tell you to move on. So what. If you're still skittish, check the rules yourself. Cities and county websites usually have websites, where you can do a wordsearch with "metal detector" or whatever. If there is nothing addressing it (ie.: silent on the issue), then just GO! If you go around asking, you might just get "no's", when in fact, no one really cared (until you asked).

 

[Mirco]

I never ask permission for any public park, school, beach, etc.... As long as it's not an obvious historical monument, and/or as long as it's not posted, I just go. To think you need to "ask" only pre-assumes that you, or your hobby, was so evil, you needed to ask, to begin with. I mean, would you ask to fly a kite? ask to do jumping jacks? (afterall, you can never be too sure, eh?). And no, I have not ever been given a ticket, or any such legal consequence. Sure, now and then some irate gardener or busy-body bored cop might tell you to move on. So what. If you're still skittish, check the rules yourself. Cities and county websites usually have websites, where you can do a wordsearch with "metal detector" or whatever. If there is nothing addressing it (ie.: silent on the issue), then just GO! If you go around asking, you might just get "no's", when in fact, no one really cared (until you asked).

When I expressed the same point of view several days ago some people were mad at me. Especially some guy from NY!! I have never felt myself so much hated in my life before.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Glen, I don't believe Micro was saying that it had to be posted "no metal detecting", but rather, that there had to be a written rule (like, on the books at city hall, for instance). If there is no rule prohibiting an activity (whether in print @ the books, or on a sign), the GO FOR IT!. Your come-back response to shoot your rifle or write your name in urine, and Gobble's backhoe in the turf deal, ARE addressed in existing laws. Ie.: no gun shooting in public, no public nudity, no earthmoving/const. without a permit, etc...

Can you see the difference? So no, you don't need permission to do something that is not expressly forbidden. Where this gets tricky is that there are a lot of laws and rules written in a loose fashion, so as to apply to a multitude of situations that a ranger or cop might encounter. The agent of the city (cop, ranger, gardener, etc...) is given liberty to interpret and enforce as he/she sees fit. So for example, you may be in a city that has no rule prohibiting detecting. But a cop or gardener can boot you anyhow, if he says you were disturbing the vegetation. I had one such booting, and tried to argue that #1) I wasn't disturbing the vegetation, and 2) there is no prohibition against md'ing. But a legal source I conferred with, before getting ready to fight, told me they'd win, if it got up to bureaucratic decision-makers, because ..... let's face it, the minute a gardener says to his superiors "I saw him bend over and poke a leshe-digger in the ground in a menacing fashion", who do you think they're going to believe? Why should they be bothered? In fact, by fighting such a arbitrary booting, I'd probably just end up getting a law created to "address my pressing issue". So my legal sources advised me just to let that one slide, and avoid just that one gardener or just that one park. In fact, to this day, I still go back to that park and hunt, and have never been bothered again. I just choose more discreet times, and keep an eye out to see if that particular park is on the maintenance schedule (the parks here are on a rotating schedule of maintenance, so they only get serviced 1x or 2x p/week, so you merely memorize the off-days )

 

[Mirco]

Glen, I don't believe Micro was saying that it had to be posted "no metal detecting", but rather, that there had to be a written rule (like, on the books at city hall, for instance). If there is no rule prohibiting an activity (whether in print @ the books, or on a sign), the GO FOR IT!. Your come-back response to shoot your rifle or write your name in urine, and Gobble's backhoe in the turf deal, ARE addressed in existing laws. Ie.: no gun shooting in public, no public nudity, no earthmoving/const. without a permit, etc...

Can you see the difference? So no, you don't need permission to do something that is not expressly forbidden. Where this gets tricky is that there are a lot of laws and rules written in a loose fashion, so as to apply to a multitude of situations that a ranger or cop might encounter. The agent of the city (cop, ranger, gardener, etc...) is given liberty to interpret and enforce as he/she sees fit. So for example, you may be in a city that has no rule prohibiting detecting. But a cop or gardener can boot you anyhow, if he says you were disturbing the vegetation. I had one such booting, and tried to argue that #1) I wasn't disturbing the vegetation, and 2) there is no prohibition against md'ing. But a legal source I conferred with, before getting ready to fight, told me they'd win, if it got up to bureaucratic decision-makers, because ..... let's face it, the minute a gardener says to his superiors "I saw him bend over and poke a leshe-digger in the ground in a menacing fashion", who do you think they're going to believe? Why should they be bothered? In fact, by fighting such a arbitrary booting, I'd probably just end up getting a law created to "address my pressing issue". So my legal sources advised me just to let that one slide, and avoid just that one gardener or just that one park. In fact, to this day, I still go back to that park and hunt, and have never been bothered again. I just choose more discreet times, and keep an eye out to see if that particular park is on the maintenance schedule (the parks here are on a rotating schedule of maintenance, so they only get serviced 1x or 2x p/week, so you merely memorize the off-days )

Thank you for the friendly civilized clarification and positive supportive attitude. Your position is absolutely correct.

As to me, I do not detect in parks at all , to avoid even a possibility of confrontation with an idiot gardener or ranger of this type. I am quite happy collecting my $0.78 on Orchard Beach and counting days until my next overseas trip to a place where I can do MDing and other innocent and well intended people-friendly things without looking constantly over my shoulder.

It was a pleasure to see a post from a person who understands things in a normal, logical and non-perverted way.

 

[coinhog]

I think the one thing they get you most on is the term,, no cutting or digging permitted,, now to me that means no cutting up trees,, and or the digging up of plants,, now I can see where they can turn that around and say,, look it says no digging,, then it becomes a war of semantics,, but like it was said above,, no sense auguring the point,, there gonna win

 

[gobble-gobble]

Mirco nobody hates you. Thats a very strong word, this whole thing is about , is it right or wrong. Everyone has there own idea, you have yours & I mine & everyone else. Regardless we have to remember our Great hobby, we sure don't want any bad press, And yes I'am from N.Y. I'll look you up at orchard next time in , we'll set & chat. We werent put on this earth to hate. God Bless. & I mean it. I will see you at the beach, God willing.