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Masking, Depth and the Inevitable Comparisons

L

lytle78

New member
It seems to me that this hobby of ours suffers from a declining ROI (Return on Investment). Unlike golf, offroading, target shooting or most other "guy" activities, detecting often as not yields results which have monetary value. As the price of detectors goes up, the access to sites and the yield per hour of detecting are generally on the decline. Since here in the US we are hopelessly conservative and stick with our now worthless pennies, nickles and dimes and lack $1, $2 and $5 coins, modern coinage is barely worth battery money - much less gas.

What to do? Of course you could say that the searching is as good as the finding and that uncovering history is reward enough - and you'd be right to a degree. A new detector which tells you a lot more about the target before you ever dig is fun, but after a while the thrill of knowing that the target is a zinc penny at 3" wears off. Don't we all really want to find some bling? A new $1700 detector ups the ante on the investment side of the equation - what about the return side?

Well, if you believe Tom Dankowski, there's gobs of jewelry, silver coinage, etc. just laying around in those places we've already hunted for years. It's there because up to now even the tiniest bit of ferrous junk could mask its presence. Reg Sniff has demonstrated with the White's TDI that that PI machine can at least work around the ferrous and do so silently while sounding off on the high conductors - yielding silver and copper from worked over parks. The Explorer Brigade claims to be able to hear the sweet sound of silver amongst the crap.

There is also the likelyhood that in some areas (old parks and picnic sites, camps, etc.) there may be deep targets which up to now VLF's have not been able to reliably discriminate from iron even if they could detect them. Some machines are reputed to be reliable on deep silver and the Vision will soon enough become the focus for head-to-head comparison with the ML machines for depth and discrimination.

If this machine can find silver where others have failed, if it can find mico-jewelry with its higer frequency, it will sell like hotcakes. If it doesn't end up offering that capability then it will still be popular and fun to use, but not the breakthrough everyone is hoping for. I think that in order to demonstrate that the Vision truly offers something new in performance will require head-to-head comparison with the competition. We all know what that means. When someone has spent $1500 or so on a new detector they tend to get a bit ego involved about it and touchy of any criticism.

Get your flak jacket out of the closet!
 
Hi Rick,

I actually do not think head-to-head testing is required at all for me at least. All that is required is that I use a detector and am successful with it.

As you have noted we are at the point where the top machines are pretty close for depth, etc. So the key for me is to get my hands on a detector I enjoy using. That enjoyment makes me more likely to get out and use it. The more I detect, the more I find. It is all in knowing your detector, putting yourself in good locations, and putting in the hours. Not to toot my own horn too hard but give me a $200 two knob machine and I'll outdetect most people. Because I'll do my research, be in good locations, and be detecting while their detector is in a closet.

I've tried numerous time to make myself like a popular coin machine favored by many. A superior detector, no doubt. But it just never resonated with me. Too different from what I am used to, and I never put in the hours to really learn it. People talk about buy and try but I know what I like, and it does not take me long to decide I like a machine or not. There are many alternatives on the market that will work as well for me so I just go with what I like. I wish people would just chill out and realize there is more to all this than just depth or target masking or whatever. All important things of course, but not worth getting into spitting matches over. A test in my particular ground will get different results than in your ground. So I decide detector A is better, you decide detector B is better, then we get on the internet and call each other liars. What is the point? Just let me use A and you use B. The internet is a great place to learn things, but when it comes down to what works best in Anchorage, Alaska, I'm listening to nobody but me. You say something else works better where you are, I'm oh so way ok with that.

Just using you and me as examples here. I do like it when prople offer objective comparisons of two detectors. But while I will observe and even look forward to the arguments and flaming I'm going to just get a Vision and go metal detecting with it and see what I can find. If I'm finding stuff and having fun that will be good enough for me. I guess life's getting too short as I just want to go have fun. I've never run out of targets yet... time is my biggest obstacle.

Steve Herschbach
 
Thanks for your imput Steve, I am sure you are right, lots of folks just like one machine over another for the simple reason that it "fits" them. I don't expect that the Vision or any other machine will be so clearly superior in - let's say - silver recovery in parks - that everyone will agree that that's the only thing to have. I do have a neighbor however who is pretty expert with his "wonda from downunda" and I hope to have the chance to go out with him to one of the sites which he and his pals have "cleaned out" and try out my TDI and (eventually) Vision side by side with his machine. Likewise I am hoping that Keith Southern, who I believe has a Vision, will take it to DIV and give us some feedback on how it worked looking for relics in what is supposed to be some of the "hottest" soil around.

I do think, however, that Dankowski's articles about masking and micro-jewelry are fascinating (http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/behindthemask.htm and www.fisherlab.com/hobby/documents/DankowskiIntelligence5thed.pdf). I have posted regarding them on various forums and mostly got feedback from experienced detectorists that they didn't think that he could be right - especially about the masking. If he is right however, then a machine which can see through or "around" ferrous junk should make old sites new again without having to dig to China (which, of course where all our money is now!).

I'll be very interested in ways in which the V can "winkle out" silver from around ferrous trash and how sensitive it is to thin gold chains, etc.

As far a flame wars, we should probably keep this forrum for talking about the V and leave the head-to-head stuff for more general fora so that we can have our playground here to ourselves!
 
As You know i am one of those believing Dankowski is right. I dont want to go into specific percentages of whats found vs whats masked out or deeper but i am convinced he is right.

About the sensitivity the Vision shows towards gold chains. I was lucky to have a chat with one that has tested it agains the MXT.

A goldchain the MXT sees at 2" the Vision sees at 4" in air. That tells something.

Have fun and i promise You that You will find atleast many Nickles at Your nabours cleaned out sites that none of You will understand how escaped them.

I have just that experience with my own machines.
 
I'll be doing some of those head to head comparisons. Most of my sites are either trashy park/picnic areas, filled over with deep targets, or iron infested home sites. What makes a detector fun for me, is when I'm finding stuff and my arm and back don't feel broken by the end of the day hunting. Sure, research can give you a virgin site in the woods where everything is shallow, but if that's where you are hunting mostly all you need is a low end detector like the Ace 250.
 
I hunt in some of the oldest,trashy big city parks in the country. NYC parks can see thousands of people on a daily basis. Finding old silver down though 50+ years of a carpet of bottle caps and pull tabs is a feat. It's going to be iteresting how well this machine can handle the heavey trash. I'm pulling for it.
 
Good Deal Brett,

Good on you. I'm sure we will all be waiting to hear what you think. I used to do the head to head comparison stuff on the internet and I'm more than happy to have someone else do that! I'll be posting some stuff but it will be about what the Vision can do, not how it is better than this or that. Give it a go and you'll see what I mean.

Steve Herschbach
 
I think you're right.

In my neck of the woods, there is literally a carpet of rusty iron nails at most of the good sites with a mix of ferrous junk, pull tabs and bottle caps. Dealing with pulling goodies out of there is what it's all about.

As far as the Explorer guys claiming they can see the silver among the crap, I can tell you from first hand experience that it is true. Obviously it depends on the crap vs the good target, depth and target orientation, your coil and your settings, but it certainly is true as I've seen it for myself. I think knowing your machine and what it is telling you is the biggest factor.

I'm curious to see how the Vision does. Sounds pretty cool to me.
 
Depth and ability to separate in trash will be the two key areas for me on this detector. That being said, the two obvious comparisons are going to have to be the E-trac and the F-75.

I do get tired of the inability to sift things out among users and wish we had a better way to really test and compare detectors. With the prices skyrocketing on these detectors, you can't afford to have more than one in many cases.

Honesty in answers is the hardest thing to get on detectors, and comparisons on the SAME targets / areas (covering every inch say of a 20 x20 foot area) are what's needed.
 
Hi,

"Honesty in answers is the hardest thing to get on detectors"

You want honesty? I'll give it to you. The only honest answers you will come up with on the net are the ones you provide yourself.

Watch what people say over time. You will be able to tell eventually who is offering answers and who is trying to influence you. But at the end of the day you can't rely on others for easy answers. Especially comparing brand A to brand B. Too many agents at work out there. You want the truth - then you have to invest your time, and yes your own dollars, in finding out the answers. Trust in others to only point the way - but no more.

And that is the honest truth.

Steve Herschbach
 
I can say I honestly believe green is the best color while you may be honest in saying red is the best color. "Best" is only a matter of personal opinion. Now if I were to say I honestly believe my 4 cylinder out performs the 8 cylinders, then common sense tells you something is wrong. I think you've got to use a bit of common sense when people give their "honest" opinion.

Experience with any given detector will vary from person to person, but by averaging out those opinion, one can get a better idea of what they might expect. A $200 detector can perform very well in the right hands and right conditions, while in general, the higher end detectors will perform better in more conditions with less experience. Back to the 4cyl vs 8cyl. A little common sense goes a long ways.
 
An experience coin-shooter with a cheap machine will "out perform" a rookie with a expensive machine. This will hold true in any given location. The Vision holds a lot of promise for the rookie but will a rookie buy this machine? Tine will tell. In the hands of an experienced coin-shooter, the outlook is very promising. As Rick said in his post, the return of investment will be on everyone's mind when considering this machine. As for me, I'll buy one after experienced coin-shooters had had a chance to field this machine and share there thought on its performance.
 
I really cant understand why in the day and age of $1500 dollar detectors one of us "professional boasters" or for that matter a "team of boasters" cant get there heads and money together and go out and buy a few so called "top of the line detectors" and do a Basic HEAD TO HEAD standardized test? how the heck hard is that? formulate some basics and compare them right out of the box with no expertise no changing of any special features just turn on in basic start mode and go. Would every manufacturer, seller and advertiser shiver at the thought. OK then if they do then invite them to your test and then let them do a second test with there super professional "boaster master" and let them soup up the machine and test against each other on a second test. Write up another report. simple test that help determine the basic depth, response, ease, pinpointing, ect ect. It can be done why hasnt it been. Where the heck is consumer reports?
Please do not start in on me with "the air test and the electrical currents in the air, this area" and bla bla bla...Seriously just test them in the basic start up program right there in the same spot in your shop PERIOD. have three persons with credible factual statements and measurable results with NO BIAS and I bet the first person who gets this done will make enough to buy all the new equipment and then some. Who Knows pretty soon maybe the new products will be sent to them for free so they can test it and write a solid comparison report unbiased by the media. If I read one more magazine or book article that is afraid of putting one brand above another to avoid manufacturer withdrawing advertising dollars I'm going to peeeuuuwwwck!!!!! stand up tell it like it is. OK Ill sit down and shut up now!
 
I'm admittedly in the Whites camp because of my favorable experiences with these last few generations of machines and relationships established with fellow Whites users. To say that others aren't excellent is ridiculous. That little Ace 250 and the greatly appreciated Minelabs (amongst others) is proof enough. You like what you like and that's it. We'll all see how this shakes down as to how they compare but does it really matter? Get good with whatever you have and don't look back. As for return on investment? That is kind of hard to quantify as it all depends on what you consider return. If it is just the money part of it (and it is important to recover the cost of your equipment quicker) get good at jewelry retrieval (mainly) and dig tons of targets. Some of you all have excelled at this like crazy. ( I know one local guy who has always paid for all his knew machines within the first few months...He's the machine!) Steve...Last time I seen you in Anchorage, I asked you how you liked the new MXT. You said (in your typical fashion) "Well...it's kinda hard not to like a machine that finds you a nugget the size of a pack of cigarettes." (And you have found "pounds" since?:please:) Original purchase price is probably an easy wash with you big guy! Just learning and enjoying the hobby is the other huge return. The existence of this very site is proof of that. Wish everyone a good season, no matter what the flavor (or price tag) of your box. It boils down to the hunter...machine is always second fiddle.
 
Regarding not claiming one is better than the other in magazines, I hear ya. I was actually hoping to hear something definitive and it was like.. yeah they're both good... you can't go wrong with either. Blah. But then again, I feel like I really do have to figure out which one is right for me, instead of someone telling me which one is right for me. This hobby is all about discovery :)
 
Ok I agree with you about agents and fourms being biased that is obvious. However independence is possible and if they can give solid comparisons on vehicles costing up to $50,000 or more than certainly they can compare metal detectors factually without bias based on its ability. Why is no one doing this?
 
This used to bother me about finding Un-biased opinions about detectors. In the Ham radio world it is easy to get a good review of equipment. It is not the metal detector industies fault. The magazines get big bucks for their ads so they arn't in a position to compare detectors. For radios we look at a book that comes out every year and gives real critical reviews. There is no such thing for metal detectors.
 
I agree each person will have different things about a detector appeal to them and there needs... thus "feel like I realy do have to figure out which one is right for me" statment is true. But what do you base your figureing on? do you try each machine? or just read about them and take the plunge? If you had head to head reports you can compare the results and still figure this out which one is right for you and still get even better with it than you ever thought possible. But as it exists now every new machine that comes out and almost every peice of equipment marketing says these words
Faster processing, greater stability, better depth...based on what? more stable than what? the last one the other one? how much faster? a nano second? you see what I mean? They are not divining rods that we need to have some sixth sense with they are measureable electronic devices that can be compared and reported on but nobody is doing that. I only question why dosnt someone do that? and how have Marketers and manufactures prevented that from happening?
 
Soil does make a difference though, but it would be nice if it was tested this way in several areas of the country. I kind of hate this idea that you must buy one and if you don't like it or find it doesn't live up to claims, sell it and take the money hit like it's no big deal. I think there'd be a lot of protests if cars were like that (absolutely no test drives or consumer ratings you could trust i.e. everyone gets a favorable review with nary a negative because they won't advertise with us anymore), but then again, your car will probably still get you where you want to go...a metal detector may not. I'm not going to deny that a lot, and probably the MOST important part all things being equal, that occurs is between the operators ears (I know of at least one person that could probably out hunt me with a stick...I really think he could manage it!), but let's also not kid ourselves that quite a bit of it is not either.

I understand the fact metal detecting is a "niche" business with quite a bit of competition for the dollar and high investment costs in designing a new model. If metal detectors were to get "honest" unfavorable reviews / comparisons to the competition that people trust, I could see that just one bad detector (and by "bad" I mean just in comparison to the competition at the time) could seriously put a strain on a company in terms of cash / reputation, and the decreased competition / investment in new tech that this would ultimately mean is not good for the companies, the hobby, or the consumer.

I don't pretend to know the solution to this, I just tire of knowing what every "review" I open a magazine to, etc., is going to say ahead of time.

Also, as long as we're talking about games being played, I'm not a big believer in an air test not being that accurate for depth. This "it air tests not so good, but wait till you see it in the ground" just does NOT make sense, no matter how you say it. In my mind, the "halo" effect is mostly on iron which I am NOT looking for. But seriously, for someone to say that a detector that sees a dime at 6" in the air but no further can see the same dime 10" with the ground in the way needs to stop trying to sell me gold mines in Oklahoma. I WILL agree that an air test doesn't tell me what it will do in the ground because that's impacted by it's ground filtering, trash separating ability, discrimination ability, etc., but I'll bet dollars to donuts that unless the ground is WET and thus providing a conductor, the only difference you'd ever see would be a DECREASE.

Now, all that being said, I'm not judging the VISION positively or negatively one way or the other with no personal knowledge or experience of it as doing so would make me just as guilty as those who play the games, either on one side or the other (never a bad review OR brand loyal or brand hater due to other brand loyalty). Human nature tends to favor "our" pick....why do you think sports is such a big business as people root for "their" team...even if they are worse and scream a legitimate call by a referee was "bogus"? I for one have only owned White's detectors myself because from my personal dealings I could not expect a better company to deal with and quality in construction of the machines. The few times I have needed a repair, they did so courteously paying all shipping if under warranty, and with very reasonable and minor charges when not. (Is this a good place to add I'd love to see a trade-in program on old DFX / MXT coils with a reasonable cost to get one that works on the VISION (owning 5 coils myself, none of which will be "optimized", with White's inspecting the returned coils and selling them "inspected and warrantied refurbished" at a discount direct, or at a discount with lower MSRP to dealers, for the continuing DFX / MXT purchasers at those price levels? Seems like a win-win and something I might expect from White's. After all, many companies sell discounted "refurbished" electronics......I even saw a discounted Garrett Pro-Pointer listed as "refurbished', so seems like they must as well (unless someone was playing ad games). Those sticking with DFX / MXT or buying new can choose from new coils or used ones with a less warranty and price inspected as "working" by White's (think Honda certified program).

With all that being said, I as much as anyone look forward to the new unit and seeing what it can do....just not on MY dime. I truly hope it lives up to the expectations, but would LOVE to see an HONEST side-by-side set of tests that could be trusted against the F-75, Minelab SE, and Minelab E-trac (all top-tier machines) just as they come with their default coils as shipped.

BTW, I apologize to anyone offended by my views in this post. It is not to be read as disparaging to any manufacturer or machine.
 
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