Locksport Anyone?

[Odanscoils]

Piece of cake! A few alien technology security pins and a good key bitting scheme, and it could be made very difficult to pick for someone that's not skilled.

Could you pm me information on it ?
I have a lathe to make custom cylinder and pins.
The cross key has interested me greatly.
With the key being a tube with key blades fitting over a pin in cylinder with a push release at end for final release of cylinder.
Though making the cut in the cylinder would be difficult.
Alien pins.
Never seen those.
I've found this lock quite interesting.
Virtually un pickable.
What do you think ?

DEADBOLT - Bowley Lock Grade 2

high security locks

www.bowleylockcompany.com

 

[Old Longhair]

Could you pm me information on it ?
I have a lathe to make custom cylinder and pins.
The cross key has interested me greatly.
With the key being a tube with key blades fitting over a pin in cylinder with a push release at end for final release of cylinder.
Though making the cut in the cylinder would be difficult.
Alien pins.
Never seen those.
I've found this lock quite interesting.
Virtually un pickable.
What do you think ?

DEADBOLT - Bowley Lock Grade 2

high security locks

www.bowleylockcompany.com

Bowley locks are as good as they come! They are the most difficult to pick by design, a truly remarkable feat of engineering.

You don't need a lathe to make security pins. Just a Dremel, a few needle files, and a jeweler's saw will get it done.

The key bitting should take into consideration what it takes to pick a lock. A combination of low and high cuts, to make it tough to lift one high enough that's behind one (or more) that shouldn't be lifted much at all, referred to as a "gate keeper" should be part of the plan.

 

[Odanscoils]

Bowley locks are as good as they come! They are the most difficult to pick by design, a truly remarkable feat of engineering.

You don't need a lathe to make security pins. Just a Dremel, a few needle files, and a jeweler's saw will get it done.

The key bitting should take into consideration what it takes to pick a lock. A combination of low and high cuts, to make it tough to lift one high enough that's behind one (or more) that shouldn't be lifted much at all, referred to as a "gate keeper" should be part of the plan.

You have any pics of this stuff ?

 

[Old Longhair]

You have any pics of this stuff ?

I'll take a few pics tonight and U/L them for illustration. I've got to go to work soon.
Other things to do would be to counter-mill the core, or even threading the top of the core. This gives things like serrated pins and spool pins more to hang up in, making it more difficult to pick. Another thing that I've seen is to use short pieces of BB chain for driver pins, because they work a lot like spools, but behave a bit differently when being picked.

 

[cw3]

I watch The Lock Picking Lawyer on ytube.

I'm amazed on how fast he can pick locks.

 

[Old Longhair]

I watch The Lock Picking Lawyer on ytube.

I'm amazed on how fast he can pick locks.

He and Bosnian Bill are my favorites. Unfortunately, Bill has stopped making videos, and let his website go.......it's a shame, but I understand.

 

[Old Longhair]

You have any pics of this stuff ?

Okay!
If you notice, each key has at least one high cut (or at least a higher cut) behind a low cut. The reason it's important is because when picking it, depending on the binding order of the pins, you have to lift the higher cut key pin without inadvertently lifting the lower cut key pin, which could cause an over-set condition at that pin, preventing the lock from opening.

I mentioned binding order.
When you tension a lock, due to slight irregularities in machining the lock when it's manufactured, at any given point there is only one pin at a time preventing the core from turning. That causes one pin to bind when it is initially tensioned, making it the first pin that needs to be picked. Once that pin has been lifted to the shear line, the core will shift imperceptibly and stop against the next pin in the binding order.....and so on, and so on, until the pock opens. Now with that basic understanding of how it all works, you can begin to see how the bitting arrangement can play a part in making the lock more difficult to open. You can also start to understand why serrated and spool pins being added increases the security of the lock against pickers.

On entry locks, there is another thing to consider. The key turns both ways. One direction locks the lock, and the other direction opens the lock. It is common for locks to be easier to pick in one direction than the other. However, changing the direction that you tension the core also effectively reverses the binding order in most cases.
To get around this, most experienced pickers have a tool called a core spinner. The spinner is a spring wound mechanism with a blade that's inserted into the key slot which when triggered will spin a core that has been picked open in one direction over to the other side so quickly that the driver pins don't have time to drop as the key pins pass them. This allows the picker to open the lock in whatever direction is the easiest, and if it's the wrong direction to unlock the lock, he just spins it to the other side and achieves the open. A spinner also allows the picker to re-lock the lock without having to pick it again, if he desires.

 

[Odanscoils]

Okay!
If you notice, each key has at least one high cut (or at least a higher cut) behind a low cut. The reason it's important is because when picking it, depending on the binding order of the pins, you have to lift the higher cut key pin without inadvertently lifting the lower cut key pin, which could cause an over-set condition at that pin, preventing the lock from opening.


View attachment 22932

I mentioned binding order.
When you tension a lock, due to slight irregularities in machining the lock when it's manufactured, at any given point there is only one pin at a time preventing the core from turning. That causes one pin to bind when it is initially tensioned, making it the first pin that needs to be picked. Once that pin has been lifted to the shear line, the core will shift imperceptibly and stop against the next pin in the binding order.....and so on, and so on, until the pock opens. Now with that basic understanding of how it all works, you can begin to see how the bitting arrangement can play a part in making the lock more difficult to open. You can also start to understand why serrated and spool pins being added increases the security of the lock against pickers.

On entry locks, there is another thing to consider. The key turns both ways. One direction locks the lock, and the other direction opens the lock. It is common for locks to be easier to pick in one direction than the other. However, changing the direction that you tension the core also effectively reverses the binding order in most cases.
To get around this, most experienced pickers have a tool called a core spinner. The spinner is a spring wound mechanism with a blade that's inserted into the key slot which when triggered will spin a core that has been picked open in one direction over to the other side so quickly that the driver pins don't have time to drop as the key pins pass them. This allows the picker to open the lock in whatever direction is the easiest, and if it's the wrong direction to unlock the lock, he just spins it to the other side and achieves the open. A spinner also allows the picker to re-lock the lock without having to pick it again, if he desires.

Nice info
Thank You.
I'll try to find those yotubers.
So
If I choose a bitting that has a key with at least two deep notches in the key next to two high notches/ pin locations.
It should be more difficult to pic ?
If I machine a core that's perfectly aligned so no individual pins line up/ they all come in at once precisely. The lock should be much more difficult to pic ?
I really like the Bowley locks.
Though the key looks like a week construction.
Ever Heard of a key breaking ?

 

[Old Longhair]

Nice info
Thank You.
I'll try to find those yotubers.
So
If I choose a bitting that has a key with at least two deep notches in the key next to two high notches/ pin locations.
It should be more difficult to pic ?
If I machine a core that's perfectly aligned so no individual pins line up/ they all come in at once precisely. The lock should be much more difficult to pic ?
I really like the Bowley locks.
Though the key looks like a week construction.
Ever Heard of a key breaking ?

In order;
1) Yes.
2) Yes. Tolerances are important. The difference of less than .001 is still noticeable, so you're talking about some serious precision.
3) Yes. Keys do break from time to time. The Bowley lock key works enough differently that breaking it would take some serious ham-fistedness. A properly lubed and maintained lock should never sieze up. And if you spend the $ for a Bowley, you'll take good care of it, 'cause they aren't cheap.

 

[Odanscoils]

Okay!
If you notice, each key has at least one high cut (or at least a higher cut) behind a low cut. The reason it's important is because when picking it, depending on the binding order of the pins, you have to lift the higher cut key pin without inadvertently lifting the lower cut key pin, which could cause an over-set condition at that pin, preventing the lock from opening.


View attachment 22932

I mentioned binding order.
When you tension a lock, due to slight irregularities in machining the lock when it's manufactured, at any given point there is only one pin at a time preventing the core from turning. That causes one pin to bind when it is initially tensioned, making it the first pin that needs to be picked. Once that pin has been lifted to the shear line, the core will shift imperceptibly and stop against the next pin in the binding order.....and so on, and so on, until the pock opens. Now with that basic understanding of how it all works, you can begin to see how the bitting arrangement can play a part in making the lock more difficult to open. You can also start to understand why serrated and spool pins being added increases the security of the lock against pickers.

On entry locks, there is another thing to consider. The key turns both ways. One direction locks the lock, and the other direction opens the lock. It is common for locks to be easier to pick in one direction than the other. However, changing the direction that you tension the core also effectively reverses the binding order in most cases.
To get around this, most experienced pickers have a tool called a core spinner. The spinner is a spring wound mechanism with a blade that's inserted into the key slot which when triggered will spin a core that has been picked open in one direction over to the other side so quickly that the driver pins don't have time to drop as the key pins pass them. This allows the picker to open the lock in whatever direction is the easiest, and if it's the wrong direction to unlock the lock, he just spins it to the other side and achieves the open. A spinner also allows the picker to re-lock the lock without having to pick it again, if he desires.

 

[Old Longhair]

The bottom key has the better bitting of the two. The top one would be a cinch to rake open......would take seconds. The gatekeeper on the bottom one would work well with two or three spools or serrated spools behind it.

 

[Odanscoils]

The bottom key has the better bitting of the two. The top one would be a cinch to rake open......would take seconds. The gatekeeper on the bottom one would work well with two or three spools or serrated spools behind it.

Eggzactly
Raking.
Why I showed the top key.
That replaced the lower key.