Kicked out of a park today

[Coinseeker 78]

I have detected this park for about 4 years without a problem. The local Police often wave or stop and talk with me. Today I was detecting and a park patrol officer not the police stopped me from detecting and said you can't dig holes on city property. He said you could detect but not dig, He asked me for ID and went to his car and called the police. A Patrolman come to the scene and said I would have to get a permit from the mayor before I could hunt. There are no signs in the park prohibiting detecting and no articles in the paper about any changes in the law. I checked and could not find anything prohibiting metal detecting or cutting plugs in the park. This park was founded in the 1920s and is hunted very often by many detectorists While the park patrol was at the car checking my ID I filled the hole up and when he returned I asked him if he could tell where I had dug the plug. He could not tell but said that did not make any difference. It is getting pretty bad when you wrap a fortune up in metal detectors and lose more hunting grounds every day, The joggers and park users know me and consider me one of the park fixtures. I guess that is over now. The park is Baker Park in New Castle Indiana.

 

[DougF]

I had a very similar experience - went to a picnic area in a park about 20 times over two years, in full view of a road, even once had a local cop stop and talk about detecting with me. Then one day a park patrol person stopped and told me it was not allowed. Just like you I had checked the agency web site and saw no mention. There were also park rules posted which said nothing about detecting. The patrol person told me I could write a letter to the main office and request a permit, which I did. A letter came back saying no, citing possible destruction of archeological sites. The place I was detecting was a pull-tab filled picnic spot. I did find several silver coins there before I was kicked off, though. I hope you have better luck.

 

[john sullivan]

i find if you detect at a place where they have to walk a long way to confront you.they won;t bother you, there to lazy to walk the distant

 

[john sullivan]

i carry a box of cigars and pass them out freely to grass cutter , and nusence people

 

[dmckee17]

These days, you can't really be "brazen" with your detecting in any public area. The way " I " get around the issue is just simply be discreet, everybody has cellphones and will call authorities for absolutely anything. Once your told "NO", your finished at that park!

Here's a few things "I" do or think about while I'm out (not all inclusive):

1. Don't drag a shovel around (small concealed trowels work well)

2. Don't carry a large knifelike digger in a scabbard displayed on the hip (threatening to some)

3. Don't go when large numbers of people are around (go early, or dusk, or cold weather?)

4. If you must go during high traffic times, don't dig every single target and don't stay forever (let the ground heal and people forget about you, there's always tommorow)

5. If I'm being watched like a hawk at our public park, I'll mark good targets until people move on or lose interest in me then I dig target.

6. Don't confront or challenge authorities or a complainant, they will pursue the issue and get it banned for you. (move on..there's always tommorow)

7. Public parks do belong to everybody, some people see you as destroying it and taking historic items.

8. When I have been asked to leave, I apologize and comply....but I will be back some months later and keep my visits short until I'm done

9. Of course....leave the grounds BETTER than you found it, in case anyone checks behind you (dirtclods, rocks trash, etc).

 

[kingingkunsan]

Great advice

These days, you can't really be "brazen" with your detecting in any public area. The way " I " get around the issue is just simply be discreet, everybody has cellphones and will call authorities for absolutely anything. Once your told "NO", your finished at that park!

Here's a few things "I" do or think about while I'm out (not all inclusive):

1. Don't drag a shovel around (small concealed trowels work well)

2. Don't carry a large knifelike digger in a scabbard displayed on the hip (threatening to some)

3. Don't go when large numbers of people are around (go early, or dusk, or cold weather?)

4. If you must go during high traffic times, don't dig every single target and don't stay forever (let the ground heal and people forget about you, there's always tommorow)

5. If I'm being watched like a hawk at our public park, I'll mark good targets until people move on or lose interest in me then I dig target.

6. Don't confront or challenge authorities or a complainant, they will pursue the issue and get it banned for you. (move on..there's always tommorow)

7. Public parks do belong to everybody, some people see you as destroying it and taking historic items.

8. When I have been asked to leave, I apologize and comply....but I will be back some months later and keep my visits short until I'm done

9. Of course....leave the grounds BETTER than you found it, in case anyone checks behind you (dirtclods, rocks trash, etc).

 

[UtahRich]

Time to be in the office of the local Mayor asking some questions.

Good luck with that.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Rick, when you say "good luck with that", are you saying that tongue in cheek as "fat chance of getting a yes", or are you being serious?

I do not think situations such as this merit a going down to city hall, and trying to go over someone's head. Only in a last ditch effort, does such an encounter mean such a thing. Because take a look at the OP's actual scenario: he's gone for years, even in full view of anyone and everyone (other cops, gardeners, etc...). And what's changed now? The laws or rules? NO. Only "who saw him" (ie.: who has a bee in their bonnet, or a personal bone, or who was having a bad day, etc...).

Here's what's going on: Duly appointed officials do indeed have latitude to interpret the laws "as they see fit", in order to fit a myriad of circumstances as they may arise. In other words: laws and rules simply can not be written to forsee a million different scenarios in the field. That's why some laws are purposefully written vaguely, so-as-to-apply to a myriad of circumstances. You know, like laws that forbid "annoyances", etc... And it's on a case-by-case basis for implementation. And sure, if it were "agregious" and truly "capricious" then you could probably get the cop in trouble for abuse of power (like if he tries to boot you from the park because you were wearing blue tennis shoes). However, in our particular hobby, let's face it guys: it DOES have admitted connotations. Sure, maybe not to all passerbys and city officials (as the OP's text shows), but to others, sure, it does draw lookie-lous, and has connotations. The solution to this though, is NOT to think we all need to pre-empt such encounters, by going to city halls and mayors and asking "can I?". Because then you REALLY run the risk of a "no" (simply because you asked, and they give the safe answer).

So if it were me, I'd avoid "just this one cop". Give the park a break. Make note of when it was the encounter occured, and be sure to go at a different shift next time. You know, like if that happened at 8am, then it stands to reason that that cops shift is in the morning, right? Well go in the pm next time. I mean, sure, I would not argue with the cop, or return 5 minutes later in defiance. Of course not.

In my next post, I will post an example that happened to me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

There's a certain park, in a certain city here in CA, that has produced a lot of silver over the years. It's a few hours away from me though, so I hit it whenever I'm passing through that part of the state. It's been detected since the late 1970s at least. I've detected it since the early 1980s. In all that time, just like coin-seeker78's situation, there's never been a problem, as far as anyone knew. I mean, sure, we had the "presence of mind" to go at low traffic times, be discreet when chasing the deeper ones, etc..

One time though, about 10 yrs. ago, a buddy and I were working the park. A lady cop comes up and launches in on us. You know, the typical song & dance not like coin-seeker's encounter here ("you can't do that", blah blah). Well as it turns out, my friend and I were getting ready to wrap it up for the day, so we gave her lip service, and left.

It just so happened, that just a month or two after that encounter, that I began to correspond with a hunter from that city, on a metal detecting forum, when we each recognized from each other's posts, that we were just a few hours from each other. In one of our communications, I told him of the booting we'd received just a month or two earlier, from the park in the center of his town. He emailed back that that was surprising, because he'd detected there, un-bothered, for a long time by then. And so too had his mentor who got him into the hobby, hunted there for many years. And as far as he knew, there was no rules or laws (specifically anyhow) saying you couldn't detect. Thus my information bothered him. It turned out, that his wife's family is "well connected" in that town (a relative on city council or something like that). So he told me he was going to have her "look into this" and "find out for sure" and "set that cop straight", blah blah blah. But I stopped him, and told him that maybe trying to go over some single cops head, was NOT the best idea. In other words, by parading this "pressing issue" in front of various park's dept officials, the city council, etc... might just be the avenue for them to make an official "no" or rule. I mean, let's face it, the hobby does have connotations, doh! And all that cop would have to say is "..... but they were tearing the place up" (even though that's not true), and guess who's going to win that debate? So rather than risk some real rule or policy coming into being, I told my new friend that "let's just give it a break". In the meantime, he figured that since no one ever said anything to him though, that he would continue to go, until told otherwise himself.

No one ever said "boo" to him, so eventually, we both forgot the matter, never "appealed" anything, etc...

About 6 or 8 months later, I was passing through that town again, and wanted to hit my favorite park. And since it was at an odd hour (after dusk, with little to no people, and at a different shift than the AM time I'd met the lady cop earlier that year), I hit the park again. No one said a thing. And ever since then, over the last 10 yrs, I've hit the park dozens of times, and never heard a peep again.

Now sure, I won't say that I didn't ... the first time or two ... keep a leery eye out for busy-bodies. And sure, it's easy for me to "give the park a break", since I only get through this town 2 or 3x p/year anyhow. Thus all this might be easy for me to say. And the town is big enough that the odds of any one cop having the same job, or even remembering you, is slim after a year or two. Perhaps this attitude won't work for a barney-fife 1-cop town where the station-house is right there over-looking the park. But I'm just trying to say, that a single cop or gardener saying "you can't do that", doesn't always make it law. Afterall, you have to figure this too: sometimes they're just answering a call, FROM SOMEONE ELSE, that they are duty-bound to please. When perhaps they themselves don't care. I've had that happen to, where a cop comes up ,and tells us point-blank "we had a call", and he ushers us on. Well to me, that only means he's "trying to keep the peace" and DOES NOT indicate this is a new law or policy. But sure, you give lip service right then, and don't simply return 30 min. later. I mean .... c'mon.

 

[happycamper08]

Doesn't anyone stand up for themselves anymore? If there are no rules against it than it is OK. You have every right to enjoy that park just like everyone else that pays taxes. Would people just let dogs be banned because some cop doesn't like them. Really? Cm on.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I would agree with you, that if there's no *specific* rule that says "no metal detecting", then ....... presto, it's not prohibited.

Unfortunately though, as we all know, a lack of something *specific* doesn't stop a busy-body from morphing something ELSE to apply. Like because they think you're going to harm the earthworms or whatever. So if you ask me, the solution is simple: Not "go grovel at city hall looking for "yes's". On the contrary, here's the solution: AVOID SUCH BUSY-BODIES. Call it "sneaking around" if you like, but for pete's sake, we ALL sort of ALREADY use a little "common sense" in our detecting timing, right? I mean, just because there may not be a rule saying "no metal detecting", doesn't mean we go waltzing over beach blankets, and making dig holes in front of gardeners. Just like nose-picking: we all ... uh ... use a little discretion in our timing.

So therefore if I have someone (even a cop or a gardener or whatever) come up and say "you can't do that", to me, that does not constitute a new rule "that I must fight" or that "I must seek clarification on". It just means: avoid that one busy-body lookie-lou.

 

[dmckee17]

"Sorry to keep spurring this dead horse but it just keeps twitching"

Once you get the big "NO" at a public park, detecting usually goes extinct at all public parks in that city. They will draft a handsome ordinance banning the hobby, educate all public workers on it, then we/us are officially breaking the law and everybody knows it. These few treasures we dig have remained (hopefully) hidden 100 years or more and have eluded previous detectors for the past 40 years or so, they aint "jumpin" out of the ground with every other swing anymore. Whats left demands patience and persistance swinging the coil while being discreet and courteous in the public eye.

No need to challenge, let it rest awhile, there's always tommorow?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You say:

"Once you get the big "NO" at a public park, detecting usually goes extinct at all public parks in that city."

Well, maybe. Not necessarily. Sometimes, sure, whomever booted you sees a "glaring gap" that there's no specific rule, so at the next city council meeting, he suggests one be implemented, to "make it official". Yes, I've seen those type things happen. But to be honest with you, the vast majority of the time, any such bootings are random, and don't become sort of official "rule". Or.... sure, maybe they become a "policy" (which is different than a "rule").

In my city, for example, a fellow back in the early 1980s "took it upon himself" to go down to city hall and ask "Can I metal detect in the parks?" (bless his little heart for asking .... RIGHT?). He found someone there to tell him "no". So he announces this at the next club meeting to the rest of us. And a bunch of us looked at him wide eyed, asking "since when? Who told you this?" Because you see: detecting had ALWAYS simply gone on the parks, and no one had ever cared. And now all of the sudden there's a "no" answer that's been given someone at city hall? So .... just as you say .... we feared this might somehow become "official", or that this signaled the beginning of a "new policy". blah blah. But you know what? That was nearly 30 yrs. ago, and .... to this day .... you can still detect the parks here, and .... provided you're not being a nuisance or "sticking out", no one cares.

Thus, not all booting mean a "law now exists" or that a "law will be enacted".

 

[john sullivan]

jimmy ask the play ground lady if he could bounce the ball against the wall. she said no,he replied billy is doing it. she said he didn't ask.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

jimmy ask the play ground lady if he could bounce the ball against the wall. she said no,he replied billy is doing it. she said he didn't ask.

Well .... gee .... Billy SHOULD have asked, right? haha Sheesk, when we were kids, we used to love to bounce the balls off the school walls. Now that I look back on, we didn't ask anyone if we could either. And ... heck, we probably should have. Afterall, I'm sure that eventually hurts the paint, right? And the ball could "poke someone's eye out", right? And it might leave marks on the wall, right? Or you might hit the window instead, thus breaking the window. I mean, sure, if you think about it long enough, there's scores of reasons why we should have 1) asked, and 2) reasons for them to have said "no you can't". However, ..... I don't think there's a one of us, who as kids, didn't enjoy that favorite past time. Shame on us.

 

[Carl-d-Frogg]

That , I'm sorry to say my friends, is what metal detecting is coming to. Simply put ,the county or state just don't want you to find anything of value with out them knowing!
I mostly hunt my area beaches, some ran by state. I've been hunting for years at these locations and finally had a run in with state police last year. I was hunting along the water line
and the waves were coming up to my ankles ( coil making contact with water ). Next thing I know I was threaten with arrest and my gear would seized if caught again. Now again this was
at a state park. I was told I could hunt the wet /dry sand as long as I don't touch the water at all ! This just rubbed me the wrong way on how I was treated like a criminal. There are no
signs posted stating anything in these parks about metal detecting water or land. the signs I see are for no alcohol, fishing, dogs, littering, etc. In the past I've been stopped by state
park workers and was told to make sure to fill my holes, which I do! Violations are being more inflicted by the regular beach goers in ways against the posted rules like fishing, alcohol,
littering and, the worst to me are the fox hole trenches left behind by the visitors not the metal detectorist. I did not steal anything and even have returned a couple high school rings. The
trash I find I dispose of properly too! Man...and I thought I was offering a good service. Let me just say This location doesn't contain any historical landmark either. I would no better!
Its my impression that if the possibility of finding $ or anything of value the state don't like it! I think this action was caused by Mel Fisher winning his case against Florida state to keep
what he found on his claims. State doesn't want that to happen again. At least it looks that way to me! One last thing. I tried to ask the cop who stopped and warn me on why it
was such a big deal and he couldn't give a good reason. He just said it is against the law. What a joke! And I thought I lived in the land of the free! Wait a minute...... who's knocking
at my door? Ok...I guess I better see who it is or.......do I want to know?


.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Carl, good post. How long have you been hunting in this fashion, before that encounter? I mean, was that the "first time your coil ever touched the water's edge", and thus, you were "duly warned" the minute that happened?

There was the case of a fellow who had hunted for 12+ yrs. at a certain beach, and never had a problem. He got to where he'd found a lot of stuff, had fun, etc... But then , after 12+ yrs, he caught the ire of some passing bureucrat who, like in in your situation, told him "you can't do that". And what was odd is, a) he had done it for so long, and never had a problem, and b) he'd even specifically recalled authorities (lifeguards, rangers, parkworkers, etc..... JUST LIKE IN YOUR SITUATION) had never had a problem with him. So he posted about his misfortune. And someone else came on to that thread lamenting "gee, you worked it for 12+ yrs, and never had a problem? And to think I could have hit that beach for the last 12+ yrs, and ... instead .... avoided that beach, because .... I thought you couldn't do it". In other words, he was envying the guy who'd just been booted. Because that md'r, for 12+ yrs. he'd racked up all sorts of hunt time and finds, and no one had ever cared. While the other hunter, who lived near there had NOT hunted it. Why hadn't he hunted it? Because he had gone to various state-capitol park dept. headquarter people, and asked "can I metal detect?" and gotten a "no". Thus, he hadn't ever metal detected. And now, looking at this post, he reasoned that "gee, no one cared, and I could have hunted, just like you, all that time"

Ok, so what do you make of this? Why is it that any of those rank and file care or know such minutia (which, as you say, they can not even justify, excecpt to say: "it's not allowed"): Because someone went and asked "can I?" Someone in state capitol tells them "no" (because they find minutia in dusty archives which can be morphed to apply). And that info. gets passed down the chain of command to rank and file. And before you know it, the "county and state just don't want you to find anything of value". Well gee, WHY don't they want you to "find anything of value"? Because you asked!

That , I'm sorry to say my friends, is what metal detecting is coming to. Simply put ,the county or state just don't want you to find anything of value with out them knowing!
I mostly hunt my area beaches, some ran by state. I've been hunting for years at these locations and finally had a run in with state police last year. I was hunting along the water line
and the waves were coming up to my ankles ( coil making contact with water ). Next thing I know I was threaten with arrest and my gear would seized if caught again. Now again this was
at a state park. I was told I could hunt the wet /dry sand as long as I don't touch the water at all ! This just rubbed me the wrong way on how I was treated like a criminal. There are no
signs posted stating anything in these parks about metal detecting water or land. the signs I see are for no alcohol, fishing, dogs, littering, etc. In the past I've been stopped by state
park workers and was told to make sure to fill my holes, which I do! Violations are being more inflicted by the regular beach goers in ways against the posted rules like fishing, alcohol,
littering and, the worst to me are the fox hole trenches left behind by the visitors not the metal detectorist. I did not steal anything and even have returned a couple high school rings. The
trash I find I dispose of properly too! Man...and I thought I was offering a good service. Let me just say This location doesn't contain any historical landmark either. I would no better!
Its my impression that if the possibility of finding $ or anything of value the state don't like it! I think this action was caused by Mel Fisher winning his case against Florida state to keep
what he found on his claims. State doesn't want that to happen again. At least it looks that way to me! One last thing. I tried to ask the cop who stopped and warn me on why it
was such a big deal and he couldn't give a good reason. He just said it is against the law. What a joke! And I thought I lived in the land of the free! Wait a minute...... who's knocking
at my door? Ok...I guess I better see who it is or.......do I want to know?


.

 

[Prep1957]

Like all governments, they pass so many laws they cannot even stay within the law they created.I had a fellow metal detectorist told me that the new caretaker was going to close a favorite park that he had just taken over, from metal detecting.I introduced myself and asked if what I heard was true about closing the park he said it was.I told him he should check with a county police officer that asked me to leave 3 years ago.I told him,you see, if I cannot metal detect I go to my next hobby which is following park employees ,police officers,mayors ,board members around with my video camera and my listening dish sometimes more exciting than metal detecting.The police officer above, after about a week on my new hobby told me his boss sent him out to tell me it was a great day to go detecting I told him I think I will.Been detecting since and park is still open.I also recommend you study your one call laws in your State,take pictures of other people,caretakers,park employees violating the law,digging in park, and confront the caretaker with the pictures and tell him you are doing him a favor by coming to him first, if these people can do these things I should be able to metal detect.


I realize most will not like my tactics, I use them very little most spots are not worth the hassle,sometimes you have to put someone in their place because they have bullied other detectors in the past.

I also use small video camera built into my hat when I see someone strutting over to confront me.I also wear my I Kam glasses with clear lens.

Always take your camera with you,I was at local school noticed teachers and high school students planting bushes and flowers.they had shovels,trowels,saws,knives to cut ground covers.Few weeks later I was hunting that school with permission, school was out for summer. I was using a raptor ,a very young police officer said I was within 1000 foot safety school zone and the Raptor could be considered a weapon.I showed him the pictures I took of teachers and kids with knifes and shovels.He told me that he did not like me or my hobby and that I should be doing it on private land,that he was a coach in his spare time and he was always fixing his baseball field because of us.I told him I did not believe in sports in school and it was a waste of my tax payer money, kids should spend more time learning not getting hurt playing baseball,etc.Then there would be no reason to have coaches.He laughed and told me to have a nice day and left.I explained to my lawyer what happened and he told me I was lucky ,stay away from active schools, a son of a client just pointed a metal fork at another student and he is on 6 months probation.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

prep1957, your ... uh .... "tactics" do not seem like a way to get people to like metal detecting. But that's just M.H.O.

Personally, my tactic, is to simply not meet any of those people, to begin with. I hunt places when no one's there to care. A coach (as an example of someone you had a run-in with), is not likely to be there after dusk, or early Sun. AM, or on a holiday when school is closed, etc... I mean, c'mon, why swat a hornet's nest?

 

[Prep1957]

I agree with your tactics and have tried but I am not backing down I have the money and resourses to screw with thier lives they should have left me alone.Been doing this for over 35 years before it was a hobby we were referred to as kooks,nuts,nerds.etc and I made more coin hunting back in the day than I did at my real job for 3 years and I had a very good job.If your way works for you great,but if it does not you need to become the hornet's nest.Most people leave me alone anyway I am a large guy and use a large shiny buck knife to cut plugs in most locations.I do not night hunt anymore it felt like I was sneaking around.I really do not care if people like us,we were all jokes until they found out we were finding and making money and recovering artifacts and selling them for a profit.To you this is a hobby to bad coins do not breed.