a.c.t.i.v.8
New member
for the V3i Expert menu -Configure section ?? I have read the book but it needs to be broken down better if you follow ?
Dave
Dave
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Is there a down to earth explanation
- Thread starter a.c.t.i.v.8
- Start date
The Beep Goes On
New member
Are you talking about the menu layout and hierarchy or something else?
You have to learn it the hard way with experimenting and testing. Only difference between Expert ( only ) and regular is the possibility to ( setup ) custom color preferences.
I have changed my 7,5 freq color to black from green in common and uses that in all programs. Easier for me to see the difference between the 2,5 and 7,5 .
Audio setup is what takes most testing and training. With all the combinations possible between all the VDi s tones and volume levels for both threshold and target signals you can do nearly everything. Use trigger foreward when setting any sound preference, with trigger foreward you hear the sound sttings in menu as you change them. Turn off " return to top " in menu, that way you will be at the same spot when you go in and out of search mode and menu. And turn on "expert only" when you test your settings, much easier to do anything.
We need some books from Jeff Foster and Andy Sabish soon to get what you ask for.
I have changed my 7,5 freq color to black from green in common and uses that in all programs. Easier for me to see the difference between the 2,5 and 7,5 .
Audio setup is what takes most testing and training. With all the combinations possible between all the VDi s tones and volume levels for both threshold and target signals you can do nearly everything. Use trigger foreward when setting any sound preference, with trigger foreward you hear the sound sttings in menu as you change them. Turn off " return to top " in menu, that way you will be at the same spot when you go in and out of search mode and menu. And turn on "expert only" when you test your settings, much easier to do anything.
We need some books from Jeff Foster and Andy Sabish soon to get what you ask for.
We need some books from Jeff Foster and Andy Sabish soon to get what you ask for.
You can say that again...
I didn't understand the use of the "common" program until I read your post and I have read the manual at least three times, made notes, re-wrote a lot of it into my own words trying to better understand it... so if I understand correctly... if I change a setting in "common" it will change it it all the other programs? Or is it just some of the settings or did I completely misunderstand?
Julien
You can say that again...
I didn't understand the use of the "common" program until I read your post and I have read the manual at least three times, made notes, re-wrote a lot of it into my own words trying to better understand it... so if I understand correctly... if I change a setting in "common" it will change it it all the other programs? Or is it just some of the settings or did I completely misunderstand?
Julien
personally, I am glad that they went ahead with the release. This all came to light just after the release but IIRC it was pretty much the same with the DFX. I'd rather go ahead and get the technology and put it to the test. I am learning things all the time with the V3, especially in my garden and especially on known "iffy" targets. Different combinations of filter, recovery, and swing speed... not necessarily what is recommended but you have to take the time to try all sorts of settings and not just what is recommended, sometimes the opposite of what is recommended works best.
I think that they had field testers and engineers and they did their best to make sure everything was working... yeah, they didn't know all the ins and outs, what was going to only be learned by people in the field in various conditions, hunting various targets, trying different settings... at least it all works together and doesn't lockup or crash... that is what is really important. I sort of like the idea of being able to discover settings that work for me and others. I tried Daniel's AM 7.5khz idea for my ground and it does work really well. There is so much to like, so much to use for different targets and grounds.
Think of it as the detector that keeps on giving! When we get a good book on the V3 and V3i, we will get "Eurekas" I am sure. In the mean time Jeff Foster's book, "Digging Deeper with the DFX" is some help for understanding some of the basics, though some of the names of functions are different. The biggest thing I learned from it personally is to give more credence to the multigraph than to anything else. If those bars are bunched, that trumps the VDI number and the Icon.
I am spending a lot of time between "best data" and "correlate" tweaking span limit and wrap on correlate and seeing how I can get the most correct ID information where I am hunting. Of course, I spend most of my time just hunting but I like all the digging into the technology.
J
I think that they had field testers and engineers and they did their best to make sure everything was working... yeah, they didn't know all the ins and outs, what was going to only be learned by people in the field in various conditions, hunting various targets, trying different settings... at least it all works together and doesn't lockup or crash... that is what is really important. I sort of like the idea of being able to discover settings that work for me and others. I tried Daniel's AM 7.5khz idea for my ground and it does work really well. There is so much to like, so much to use for different targets and grounds.
Think of it as the detector that keeps on giving! When we get a good book on the V3 and V3i, we will get "Eurekas" I am sure. In the mean time Jeff Foster's book, "Digging Deeper with the DFX" is some help for understanding some of the basics, though some of the names of functions are different. The biggest thing I learned from it personally is to give more credence to the multigraph than to anything else. If those bars are bunched, that trumps the VDI number and the Icon.
I am spending a lot of time between "best data" and "correlate" tweaking span limit and wrap on correlate and seeing how I can get the most correct ID information where I am hunting. Of course, I spend most of my time just hunting but I like all the digging into the technology.
J
Mike Hillis
Well-known member
But I think I've come close after 23 years.
As a Fisher field tester I can tell you that the engineers come up with good stuff and make the thing work, then they hand it off to the testers to see if they missed any bugs and if the features are really useful and to see how it handles different types of ground conditions. Prototypes can go back and forth several times as things are changed and updated before the production model makes it to market. The V3 had several field testers around the country and in my opinion was adequately tested. A few bugs sometime get missed and anytime a new machine or coil comes to market there is a learning curve on how to stabilized the production process. I seen it with Fisher and I've seen it with Whites. But it all gets worked out. Field testers never get manuals. The engineers want to see if the user can pick up the machine and figure things out without a manual. Whites took the user manual to a new level on the V3 by providing a on-board manual. I can understand newbies getting frustrating with a pro level machine as its not really built for them. They don't know anything about anything and its all new. However, if one was to put in a little time and go a bit slow, things would start to click after a while as the comfort level grows.
The field testers are the subject matter experts (SME) and help everyone else get a handle on the unit. Many of them are posting or have posted on this forum in the past. Their names are published in V3 informational papers. I would recommend seeking their posts out on this forum and others and reading the helpful information they shared with everyone. That will speed up your learning curve and help you with the user manual deficiencies. Take notes, save posts and compile yourself a comprehensive encyclopedia on your unit. You'll be better off for it.
Good luck.
Mike
As a Fisher field tester I can tell you that the engineers come up with good stuff and make the thing work, then they hand it off to the testers to see if they missed any bugs and if the features are really useful and to see how it handles different types of ground conditions. Prototypes can go back and forth several times as things are changed and updated before the production model makes it to market. The V3 had several field testers around the country and in my opinion was adequately tested. A few bugs sometime get missed and anytime a new machine or coil comes to market there is a learning curve on how to stabilized the production process. I seen it with Fisher and I've seen it with Whites. But it all gets worked out. Field testers never get manuals. The engineers want to see if the user can pick up the machine and figure things out without a manual. Whites took the user manual to a new level on the V3 by providing a on-board manual. I can understand newbies getting frustrating with a pro level machine as its not really built for them. They don't know anything about anything and its all new. However, if one was to put in a little time and go a bit slow, things would start to click after a while as the comfort level grows.
The field testers are the subject matter experts (SME) and help everyone else get a handle on the unit. Many of them are posting or have posted on this forum in the past. Their names are published in V3 informational papers. I would recommend seeking their posts out on this forum and others and reading the helpful information they shared with everyone. That will speed up your learning curve and help you with the user manual deficiencies. Take notes, save posts and compile yourself a comprehensive encyclopedia on your unit. You'll be better off for it.
Good luck.
Mike
The Beep Goes On
New member
If you understanding Exclude, you understand Common. If you Exclude a category, the settings in that category will always use the Common settings. Otherwise, the settings will contain their current program-specific values.
White's Spectra V3 Manual - Page 14, 30
Common
White's Spectra V3 Manual - Page 14, 30
Common
Hey Mike, My wife didn't come with a manual either (Thank god I found a good lady!) I did write one for her. (Carried on a furniture dolly.) Now....we've been married long enough, I only have to occasionally use the ""Quick Start" pamphlet. Problem is....it keeps referring me back to the manual she wrote for me!
(I don't remember writing that portion but.....it's under "Accessories"?.)
Your whole comprehension of this boxes learning approach is dead on.
Looking at these posts...it sure is good to see many using what was put into this box!! I'm doing some custom stuff but it'll be a bit before I can really get into the options and do what you all are doing!
The ground around me is fairly predictable. The only things I've adjusted are for changing concentrations of iron, trash and a little EMI. Put these changes in a few new programs and balanced sensitivities. It's all working super well and can't wait to make everything even better. Guess what I'm saying is....you don't have to do a heck of a lot to get up and going (and doing it well). Ahhh.....but with this thing you can make it sing!!
BH, jbow,Mike, and others....thanks for your posts!!!
(I don't remember writing that portion but.....it's under "Accessories"?.)
Your whole comprehension of this boxes learning approach is dead on.
Looking at these posts...it sure is good to see many using what was put into this box!! I'm doing some custom stuff but it'll be a bit before I can really get into the options and do what you all are doing!
The ground around me is fairly predictable. The only things I've adjusted are for changing concentrations of iron, trash and a little EMI. Put these changes in a few new programs and balanced sensitivities. It's all working super well and can't wait to make everything even better. Guess what I'm saying is....you don't have to do a heck of a lot to get up and going (and doing it well). Ahhh.....but with this thing you can make it sing!!
BH, jbow,Mike, and others....thanks for your posts!!!
I was lucky to be able to help in the testing of the V3i. We would get the prototypes with no instructions or manual. I thought the menu was self explanatory and with a little experimenting I could figure out all the features. I don't think I've seen a question that hasn't been explained on the forum.
When Jeff comes out with his book I'll probably get one. That said, I never bought his MXT book and I don't think there is anything in it that I didn't know after using the forums, manual, and experimentation. I stopped in a shop in Texas with the thought of getting one. I paged through it and couldn't find anything I hadn't already learned.
They tell you how span and wrap work, but how do you decide how much span and wrap to use? The answer is you do tests with your detector and use what works best. Some of the guys are having problems because they are trying to use programs that they find on the forums that are posted by guys who are hunting in conditions that aren't even close to their conditions. They see someone make great programs and think the program used is the answer. A program posted from a guy in Florida with it's neutral soil isn't going to work in other parts of the country. People run to put the program in there detectors. I've been working with Jack's Correlate program but in my soil I'm not sure yet it is any better than the Hi Pro set up I use. EXPERIMENT, TEST, that's how you learn the V3.
When Jeff comes out with his book I'll probably get one. That said, I never bought his MXT book and I don't think there is anything in it that I didn't know after using the forums, manual, and experimentation. I stopped in a shop in Texas with the thought of getting one. I paged through it and couldn't find anything I hadn't already learned.
They tell you how span and wrap work, but how do you decide how much span and wrap to use? The answer is you do tests with your detector and use what works best. Some of the guys are having problems because they are trying to use programs that they find on the forums that are posted by guys who are hunting in conditions that aren't even close to their conditions. They see someone make great programs and think the program used is the answer. A program posted from a guy in Florida with it's neutral soil isn't going to work in other parts of the country. People run to put the program in there detectors. I've been working with Jack's Correlate program but in my soil I'm not sure yet it is any better than the Hi Pro set up I use. EXPERIMENT, TEST, that's how you learn the V3.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
Well said Rob. The idea of having so many adjustments is to have the ability to fine tune the detector for YOU, in your ground and for YOUR own hunting style. You will end up with a custom made detector just for YOU.
The Beep Goes On
New member
I agree that a program's effectiveness varies by location. Each program, however, has some rationale, or method, behind it. A program's settings are just implemented principles. I submit that a program's settings can demonstrate the use of these principle which can be adapted to your location. I would assume that, in general, any ground related settings are the least transferable.
gilfordberry
New member
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind sending a machine to field testers without any documentation. Don't you think it would be of benefit to those field testers, and eventually the product purchasers, if there was documentation at least stating what the engineers were trying to do with their wizardry? After all, they didn't just throw a bunch of chips on a circuit board then send it out to find out what it does. They want to know how well it does what it was designed to do. There had to be serious thought in the design of each circuit to accomplish certain tasks. Those intentions could be stated simply and clearly without making it easy for someone to run to China and produce a near-clone and reap the benefits of White's expenditures on design and development. So the customer suffers. Yes, one may -eventually- discover all there is to know about the machine and how it functions - but I'd like to speed up the process.
I look at it like this - you may be able to drive a car at seventy miles an hour on the freeway, but if you want to really get the best performance, you need to understand HOW tire pressure, fuel injector nozzles, temperature, etc. etc. etc. can have an effect. You will learn this - eventually - probably - but it's not Voodoo. You could read the service manual first and reap the benefit of someone else's experience....or maybe not - auto owners' manuals are pretty skimpy these days, too. But I'd like to suggest that without the benefit of the passing on of knowledge in one form or another, each of us would have to rediscover fire and reinvent the wheel.
On the subject of manuals, the V3 users manual, like that for the DFX, MXT, XLT before it, is basically a "how to drive" (in the auto example) not a how to get the best performance from your machine book. These manuals remind me of documentation for computer programs from Microsoft in the 1980's. All a tech version of legal-speak, and not intended to be understood, only used as a monkey see-monkey do book. Whatever happened to a set of instructions and concept explanations that could be understood by us dummies? Someone at White's should exhume Issac Asimov from the grave so he could teach them how to explain complicated concepts in simple terms...Like the man said, a Down to Earth explanation...
I look at it like this - you may be able to drive a car at seventy miles an hour on the freeway, but if you want to really get the best performance, you need to understand HOW tire pressure, fuel injector nozzles, temperature, etc. etc. etc. can have an effect. You will learn this - eventually - probably - but it's not Voodoo. You could read the service manual first and reap the benefit of someone else's experience....or maybe not - auto owners' manuals are pretty skimpy these days, too. But I'd like to suggest that without the benefit of the passing on of knowledge in one form or another, each of us would have to rediscover fire and reinvent the wheel.
On the subject of manuals, the V3 users manual, like that for the DFX, MXT, XLT before it, is basically a "how to drive" (in the auto example) not a how to get the best performance from your machine book. These manuals remind me of documentation for computer programs from Microsoft in the 1980's. All a tech version of legal-speak, and not intended to be understood, only used as a monkey see-monkey do book. Whatever happened to a set of instructions and concept explanations that could be understood by us dummies? Someone at White's should exhume Issac Asimov from the grave so he could teach them how to explain complicated concepts in simple terms...Like the man said, a Down to Earth explanation...
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
Field testing without documentation is standard procedure, you can't write a manual for features the prototypes don't have yet. Even the features we are testing will go through many, many changes, that is why we are testing them. Field testers are working with the engineers and programmers in product development and the instruction manual is the last step in the procedure, not the first. Some of the first V3 owners did not have manuals because they have not been made yet........didn't stop them. We are testing products long before there is even any resemblance to the final product, this is going on a year or more before anything is written on "how to".
The owners manual is just what you said, "a how to drive" manual. Fine tuning your "car" is up to you based on what kind of country road or super race track you are driving on. If you need a manual to explain every little detail, maybe the V3 is a little too advanced for you until some books are written for your needs.
The owners manual is just what you said, "a how to drive" manual. Fine tuning your "car" is up to you based on what kind of country road or super race track you are driving on. If you need a manual to explain every little detail, maybe the V3 is a little too advanced for you until some books are written for your needs.
gilfordberry
New member
I wasn't suggesting an owners manual go out with the first prototypes to the field testers. What I was suggesting was that the engineering people provide to the testers a simply stated explanation of what they hoped to provide and accomplish with their design, i.e., how the new prototype differs from what's already in common use and what the engineers hoped to accomplish with those differences. I am not talking about a "how to" manual; I'm talking about a "why" manual.
Even though I may not be the smartest guy that ever walked the surface of the earth, I'm no dummy. My IQ has a full 3 digits with a little left over; i have 30 years experience in computer controlled manufacturing and robotics, and have been MDing nearly every day for well over ten years using a half dozen different machines including the DFX, XLT, Minelab Sovereign Elite, and several different pulse machines.. Matter of fact, my first metal detector was one I built as a kid from a Heathkit. I don't think the V3 is too advanced for me or I wouldn't have purchased it. I do think my understanding of the machine - and probably that of most users - could be enhanced with a book that explained design concepts in simple terms. The more complicated a device gets, the more a simple explanation helps. I understand it is possible to "turn on and go" with the V3, but there is so much that is configurable (nearly everything, since it's software) that a more in-depth understanding of design concepts would benefit the user - at least I know it would help me. For example, it's neat - and easy - to use the polar plot screen to eliminate digging bottle caps. Great idea! But WHY does the iron content cause the squiggly plot? In short - enhance my understanding of the whys and the how-tos will come faster and be understood better. And with the better understanding will come more, and better, finds because the user will understand better how to tweak the machine for his particular environment and detecting style.
My reference to Issac Asimov was because he had a talent that most tech writers should try to emulate -- explaining complicated subjects in simple terms. My first experience with his writing came in the 5th grade when I stumbled across his "Inside the Atom" in the school library. When you can explain nuclear physics in terms an average 5th grader can comprehend, you're a tech writer. Compare that to a DOS 3.1 manual from the 80's that was a reference library, not intended to be understood, only used to eliminate a lot of trees from our forests.
Even though I may not be the smartest guy that ever walked the surface of the earth, I'm no dummy. My IQ has a full 3 digits with a little left over; i have 30 years experience in computer controlled manufacturing and robotics, and have been MDing nearly every day for well over ten years using a half dozen different machines including the DFX, XLT, Minelab Sovereign Elite, and several different pulse machines.. Matter of fact, my first metal detector was one I built as a kid from a Heathkit. I don't think the V3 is too advanced for me or I wouldn't have purchased it. I do think my understanding of the machine - and probably that of most users - could be enhanced with a book that explained design concepts in simple terms. The more complicated a device gets, the more a simple explanation helps. I understand it is possible to "turn on and go" with the V3, but there is so much that is configurable (nearly everything, since it's software) that a more in-depth understanding of design concepts would benefit the user - at least I know it would help me. For example, it's neat - and easy - to use the polar plot screen to eliminate digging bottle caps. Great idea! But WHY does the iron content cause the squiggly plot? In short - enhance my understanding of the whys and the how-tos will come faster and be understood better. And with the better understanding will come more, and better, finds because the user will understand better how to tweak the machine for his particular environment and detecting style.
My reference to Issac Asimov was because he had a talent that most tech writers should try to emulate -- explaining complicated subjects in simple terms. My first experience with his writing came in the 5th grade when I stumbled across his "Inside the Atom" in the school library. When you can explain nuclear physics in terms an average 5th grader can comprehend, you're a tech writer. Compare that to a DOS 3.1 manual from the 80's that was a reference library, not intended to be understood, only used to eliminate a lot of trees from our forests.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind sending a machine to field testers without any documentation.
"Most of us just turned them on and hunted. I had very few questions on operation and if I did we were in direct communication. The idea is for us to find things that are not correct. We also did want to be influenced by what the engineers think it should do. Honestly all the testers I worked with found the V3i easy to navigate and use after all it is so much like the V3."
Hey Rob... that's what I figured, that you guys were in constant contact with White's anytime you needed to be. Also, I figure most of you had experience with the DFX, which has a lot of features that were improved and carried over to the V3.
I agree with you about experiance but reading helps a lot too if you study instead of just read. I read my manual three times and once I made a notebook as I read. re-writing everything that was new to me or that I didn't quite grasp. I read Jimmy Sierra's book on the DFX and Jeff Foster's textbook: "Digging Deeper With The DFX". I still didn't understand everything and I still don't understand everything. I would never have thought to zero the ground probe on the ground to cancel both the ground and the EMI, in order to get a correct target VDI number on the GP. Maybe one day I would have stumbled upon the fact that the frequency strength in the GP is different from the dominate frequency in analize mode.... but I read all this here on the forum today.
A manual is only a guide though... the forums and other books teach much more and experience is the only real teacher. I agree that you can never know what the manual or any other book is telling you until you go out and try it... that said... I still get really frustrated with the V3 sometimes. Some places I can't seem to get it stable and the more I tweak the worse it gets or it may improve and I don't understand why. I usually have to run my RX at 4 or lower and some places that isn't even enough to get it stable. I realized over the weekend that though I like to run very minimal disc, that isn't prudent at every site...
... but I am learning and excited. I just got the 8x6 SEF and I like it a lot. Now if I can get out and hunt (I fell down some wooden stairs Saturday, they were slick and wet... bruised hip, arm, and ego but no broken bones). I need to pay attention.
I can't wait to get out and try these GP ideas i've read about today.
Julien
"Most of us just turned them on and hunted. I had very few questions on operation and if I did we were in direct communication. The idea is for us to find things that are not correct. We also did want to be influenced by what the engineers think it should do. Honestly all the testers I worked with found the V3i easy to navigate and use after all it is so much like the V3."
Hey Rob... that's what I figured, that you guys were in constant contact with White's anytime you needed to be. Also, I figure most of you had experience with the DFX, which has a lot of features that were improved and carried over to the V3.
I agree with you about experiance but reading helps a lot too if you study instead of just read. I read my manual three times and once I made a notebook as I read. re-writing everything that was new to me or that I didn't quite grasp. I read Jimmy Sierra's book on the DFX and Jeff Foster's textbook: "Digging Deeper With The DFX". I still didn't understand everything and I still don't understand everything. I would never have thought to zero the ground probe on the ground to cancel both the ground and the EMI, in order to get a correct target VDI number on the GP. Maybe one day I would have stumbled upon the fact that the frequency strength in the GP is different from the dominate frequency in analize mode.... but I read all this here on the forum today.
A manual is only a guide though... the forums and other books teach much more and experience is the only real teacher. I agree that you can never know what the manual or any other book is telling you until you go out and try it... that said... I still get really frustrated with the V3 sometimes. Some places I can't seem to get it stable and the more I tweak the worse it gets or it may improve and I don't understand why. I usually have to run my RX at 4 or lower and some places that isn't even enough to get it stable. I realized over the weekend that though I like to run very minimal disc, that isn't prudent at every site...
... but I am learning and excited. I just got the 8x6 SEF and I like it a lot. Now if I can get out and hunt (I fell down some wooden stairs Saturday, they were slick and wet... bruised hip, arm, and ego but no broken bones). I need to pay attention.
I can't wait to get out and try these GP ideas i've read about today.
Julien
Guys you stated your opinion. I stated mine. Whites engineers couldn't be more helpful. We all had V3's before and they aren't that different. There is nothing more to say that hasn't been said. It is what it is. It's time for this post to close. I'm lucky I even looked here again. Rob