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Is It Possible to Notch Out Pulltabs and Still Find Gold?
- Thread starter berryman
- Start date
kingingkunsan
Member
A loaded question.
With the right machine you can. But like Claddog said you will be eliminating most gold rings. My experience is with the following detectors and what I have discovered with settings.
Minelab Explorer II- Can learn or edit to ignore targets. But with similarity of gold, foil, pulltabs, etc. By ignoring pull tabs and foil you eliminate/null most gold.
Garrett Ace 250- Black out pull tabs and foil or hunt in coin mode= no more gold
Tesoro Golden uMax- Notch feature compounded with discrimination can eliminate most pulltabs and foil and still get gold rings. But it is not easy to do. It takes practice and a lot of knob adjusting while in the field. But worth it in the long run. I still dig pulltabs with it but the number has decreased.
I know for a fact that I can notch out foil and most pulltabs/beaver tails and still detect gold rings with my Golden. But have not tried with the Explorer. Either way though, the amount of rings you will be missing is the downside. If you are willing to skip gold rings just so you do not have to dig pulltabs then this may be for you.
With the right machine you can. But like Claddog said you will be eliminating most gold rings. My experience is with the following detectors and what I have discovered with settings.
Minelab Explorer II- Can learn or edit to ignore targets. But with similarity of gold, foil, pulltabs, etc. By ignoring pull tabs and foil you eliminate/null most gold.
Garrett Ace 250- Black out pull tabs and foil or hunt in coin mode= no more gold
Tesoro Golden uMax- Notch feature compounded with discrimination can eliminate most pulltabs and foil and still get gold rings. But it is not easy to do. It takes practice and a lot of knob adjusting while in the field. But worth it in the long run. I still dig pulltabs with it but the number has decreased.
I know for a fact that I can notch out foil and most pulltabs/beaver tails and still detect gold rings with my Golden. But have not tried with the Explorer. Either way though, the amount of rings you will be missing is the downside. If you are willing to skip gold rings just so you do not have to dig pulltabs then this may be for you.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
Depends................what detector are you using?
You can notch better with some detectors than others. A good example is the White's XLT, DFX or V series where you have 191 notch filters and you can be very precise to notch just one VDI number in the middle of the target to "dirty" up the audio of a particular pull tab. If a common pull-tab ID's as 25-26-27, you can notch out the middle number 26 which will alter the audio response of the tab yet if you go over a gold ring with a VDI of 27, it will still sound normal, if the ring has a VDI of 26, you are just SOL.
Most detectors will block out or notch an entire range of VDI's and those kind of detectors have the greatest risk of not detecting a gold ring when notching but some hunters have a very good ear and can tell by the audio response if they have a good target or trash under the coil
but I'm not one of them.
JMHO...... the DFX is one of the best jewelry detectors I have ever used.........
You can notch better with some detectors than others. A good example is the White's XLT, DFX or V series where you have 191 notch filters and you can be very precise to notch just one VDI number in the middle of the target to "dirty" up the audio of a particular pull tab. If a common pull-tab ID's as 25-26-27, you can notch out the middle number 26 which will alter the audio response of the tab yet if you go over a gold ring with a VDI of 27, it will still sound normal, if the ring has a VDI of 26, you are just SOL.
Most detectors will block out or notch an entire range of VDI's and those kind of detectors have the greatest risk of not detecting a gold ring when notching but some hunters have a very good ear and can tell by the audio response if they have a good target or trash under the coil
but I'm not one of them.JMHO...... the DFX is one of the best jewelry detectors I have ever used.........
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
Here is one of my favorite pictures, four of the gold targets were found with my DFX and the other two with the V3. I have found many more gold targets dirt hunting so they are out there, you just have to get the coil over them (and hear them).
[attachment 268928 TABS.jpg]
[attachment 268928 TABS.jpg]
REVIER
Well-known member
In my 3.5 years in this hobby I have found 15 gold rings and 2 gold chains.
They came in at all different areas and were pretty much evenly split between foil, nickels tabs and zinc...and they were not at the exact areas or numbers in each section, either.
One chain was so thin only the clasp can be detected and it was at iron.
I became a dig it all hunter a long time ago specifically to find gold, or at least a dig it all solid signal digger, and when I look at all the gold I have found I have never regretted that decision for an instant.
They came in at all different areas and were pretty much evenly split between foil, nickels tabs and zinc...and they were not at the exact areas or numbers in each section, either.
One chain was so thin only the clasp can be detected and it was at iron.
I became a dig it all hunter a long time ago specifically to find gold, or at least a dig it all solid signal digger, and when I look at all the gold I have found I have never regretted that decision for an instant.
Yes. As tabman, kingingkuns, Larry, and markcz have told you: not all gold reads at "pulltab" range.
And also, be aware, that it depends on what you mean by "pulltabs". They come in all over the scale, it seems, as there are a variety of sizes, shapes, bends, etc.... Everything from those little "treesweet" brand taps, and broke off beaver tails (which read down lower near nickels), up to some of the beefier fatter square tabs (not sure which brand they're coming off of) which can read up near corroded zinc. But assuming you meant just the "classic" round type tabs (rings with the beaver tails intact), then yes, you can notch those out, and still find gold rings.
Back in the very early 1980s, when the very first TID machines started making the circuit (Teknetics and Whites), there were a few people who studied this, in depth. Assuming the 100-point scale of Whites, they would, for example, take thousands of commonly recurring junk items that a person might find in a junky park (foil wads, tabs of various types, etc...). Then they also took thousands of gold rings to air sample-test as well (I guess they must've have a buddy who owned a big jewelry store! haha). They would make numerical records of where each item pegged at (this was before the days of 2-dimension axis readings). Then it was simply a matter of doing a computer spread sheet, to study the odds and demographics of where your best #'s were going to be. These studies were called "ring enhancement programs". Any oldtimers here remember those?
And I remember that the persons doing these studies found that..... only something like 12 or 13% of rings fell into strict "pulltab" range. The rest either fell below it, or above it. Thus yes, if one is to assume a study like that is accurate, he'd only miss "12 or 13% of gold rings" by passing the classic round tabs. The enhancement programs would have you edit in and out certain #'s, with the theory being that you'd statistically up your odds of rings, while lowering your odds at foil (like a Las Vegas odds sheet).
But .... the persons who tried to use these programs, still found themselves bedevilled by lots of trash, especially if they were in a place where can-slaw existed (which can read all over the scale). But nonetheless, it was an interesting concept.
Getting back to your question though, your objective of finding more gold rings, ... is not so much whether or how to notch out certain things, but rather WHERE YOU HUNT. Unfortunately, all too often, whenever a newbie asks "how can I find gold", he gets the advice "lower your disc. and dig junk till your arms fall off" (as if that's all there is to the "recipe", doh!). And then pity the poor newbie who goes to the local junky blighted park, and does just that! Oh sure, he can maybe fiddle around with notching to lessen the pain (then he gets chastised and made to feel guilty that he might miss some gold rings, blah blah blah). But this is all silly to begin with! The trick to finding gold rings has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THAT. It's already a "given" that gold rings are mostly low conductors. Thus the recipe for finding gold rings is not *only* to lower the disc, and be prepared to dig junk, but it's MUCH MORE a function of where you're hunting.
In my next post, I'll address that.
And also, be aware, that it depends on what you mean by "pulltabs". They come in all over the scale, it seems, as there are a variety of sizes, shapes, bends, etc.... Everything from those little "treesweet" brand taps, and broke off beaver tails (which read down lower near nickels), up to some of the beefier fatter square tabs (not sure which brand they're coming off of) which can read up near corroded zinc. But assuming you meant just the "classic" round type tabs (rings with the beaver tails intact), then yes, you can notch those out, and still find gold rings.
Back in the very early 1980s, when the very first TID machines started making the circuit (Teknetics and Whites), there were a few people who studied this, in depth. Assuming the 100-point scale of Whites, they would, for example, take thousands of commonly recurring junk items that a person might find in a junky park (foil wads, tabs of various types, etc...). Then they also took thousands of gold rings to air sample-test as well (I guess they must've have a buddy who owned a big jewelry store! haha). They would make numerical records of where each item pegged at (this was before the days of 2-dimension axis readings). Then it was simply a matter of doing a computer spread sheet, to study the odds and demographics of where your best #'s were going to be. These studies were called "ring enhancement programs". Any oldtimers here remember those?
And I remember that the persons doing these studies found that..... only something like 12 or 13% of rings fell into strict "pulltab" range. The rest either fell below it, or above it. Thus yes, if one is to assume a study like that is accurate, he'd only miss "12 or 13% of gold rings" by passing the classic round tabs. The enhancement programs would have you edit in and out certain #'s, with the theory being that you'd statistically up your odds of rings, while lowering your odds at foil (like a Las Vegas odds sheet).
But .... the persons who tried to use these programs, still found themselves bedevilled by lots of trash, especially if they were in a place where can-slaw existed (which can read all over the scale). But nonetheless, it was an interesting concept.
Getting back to your question though, your objective of finding more gold rings, ... is not so much whether or how to notch out certain things, but rather WHERE YOU HUNT. Unfortunately, all too often, whenever a newbie asks "how can I find gold", he gets the advice "lower your disc. and dig junk till your arms fall off" (as if that's all there is to the "recipe", doh!). And then pity the poor newbie who goes to the local junky blighted park, and does just that! Oh sure, he can maybe fiddle around with notching to lessen the pain (then he gets chastised and made to feel guilty that he might miss some gold rings, blah blah blah). But this is all silly to begin with! The trick to finding gold rings has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THAT. It's already a "given" that gold rings are mostly low conductors. Thus the recipe for finding gold rings is not *only* to lower the disc, and be prepared to dig junk, but it's MUCH MORE a function of where you're hunting.
In my next post, I'll address that.
Here's part II, to the "yes" post I just posted:
finding gold rings is more a function of WHERE you're hunting. Not how low you can go with your disc, or playing with notches, how much junk you can or have to dig, etc.... Because let's face it fellows: there are some hunt spots that are just not worth it! Picnic table/BBQ pit areas are amongst the worst. Why? Because think of it: people at picnic tables and BBQ pit areas are doing what? EATING AND DRINKING, of course. And that spells tabs off cans, foil off their food wrappers, molten aluminun can blobs from people chucking their cans onto the fires, foil from the cooking, and so forth. So why oh why oh why would someone want to be a "hero" and go try to look for gold rings at a place like that?
Contrast to athletic field usages (specifically fields strictly for athletics, where you do not typically see people eating, drinking, and picnicking), are MUCH more condusive for jewelry losses. Less people eating and drinking, and an environment that's MEANT for people doing frolicking motions (which is more condusive for people to loose jewelry, to begin with). You know, like soccer, baseball, football, etc... (assuming the fields don't double as picnic spots).
Or better yet: swimming beaches. Cool waters shrink fingers. People lathering up with slippery suntan lotion. People thrusting their fingers/hands in and out of sand to build sand castles. People doing frolicking motions while pitching balls, frisbees, etc.. And my favorite: people taking off their jewelry for "safekeeping" while they go for a swim, and putting it hidden in their shoe, or hidden under a cup, etc... And let's face it: it's easier to dig in sand as well. And the beach need not necessarily be an ocean beach. Even land-locked states have fresh-water lake beaches. Even swimming pools that have grass around them too, will have higher ratios of gold rings, than other forms of turf (again, people taking off their jewelry for safe-keeping for going in to swim). I have done lots of posse-hunts for people's lost jewelry, and this is a common lament: "I took off my ring, for safekeeping, and gave it to my mom to hold on to" or "had it discreetly wrapped in paper at the edge of my beach blanket", blah blah. And, you guessed it, it goes missing.
So if gold jewelry is your goal, don't spend so much time fretting about notches, etc... Simply go to where the gold jewelry ratio is better .... to begin with!
finding gold rings is more a function of WHERE you're hunting. Not how low you can go with your disc, or playing with notches, how much junk you can or have to dig, etc.... Because let's face it fellows: there are some hunt spots that are just not worth it! Picnic table/BBQ pit areas are amongst the worst. Why? Because think of it: people at picnic tables and BBQ pit areas are doing what? EATING AND DRINKING, of course. And that spells tabs off cans, foil off their food wrappers, molten aluminun can blobs from people chucking their cans onto the fires, foil from the cooking, and so forth. So why oh why oh why would someone want to be a "hero" and go try to look for gold rings at a place like that?
Contrast to athletic field usages (specifically fields strictly for athletics, where you do not typically see people eating, drinking, and picnicking), are MUCH more condusive for jewelry losses. Less people eating and drinking, and an environment that's MEANT for people doing frolicking motions (which is more condusive for people to loose jewelry, to begin with). You know, like soccer, baseball, football, etc... (assuming the fields don't double as picnic spots).
Or better yet: swimming beaches. Cool waters shrink fingers. People lathering up with slippery suntan lotion. People thrusting their fingers/hands in and out of sand to build sand castles. People doing frolicking motions while pitching balls, frisbees, etc.. And my favorite: people taking off their jewelry for "safekeeping" while they go for a swim, and putting it hidden in their shoe, or hidden under a cup, etc... And let's face it: it's easier to dig in sand as well. And the beach need not necessarily be an ocean beach. Even land-locked states have fresh-water lake beaches. Even swimming pools that have grass around them too, will have higher ratios of gold rings, than other forms of turf (again, people taking off their jewelry for safe-keeping for going in to swim). I have done lots of posse-hunts for people's lost jewelry, and this is a common lament: "I took off my ring, for safekeeping, and gave it to my mom to hold on to" or "had it discreetly wrapped in paper at the edge of my beach blanket", blah blah. And, you guessed it, it goes missing.
So if gold jewelry is your goal, don't spend so much time fretting about notches, etc... Simply go to where the gold jewelry ratio is better .... to begin with!
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
Great post Tom....... location, location, location.......
By adjustable I assume you mean adjustable notch "width" which is something other machines have had for years plus other brands can not only adjust the width but also have as many notches as you wish so if you want to go the notch route you may as well go with a detector that can do it well.
I have to agree with Tom in part. Yes, location when hunting gold means a lot. But the original post never discussed location, which I am ssuming he understood. He asked about discrimination. Now, I know I'm going to catch heck for saying this, but I keep getting this feeling that everyone is fudging around discussing notching and discrimination levels and how you can play with them and still find the gold.
Yes, technically that is true. You can narrow you notch width or discrimination settings. So on some detectors you can notch out one kind of pulltab and still get other pulltabs and gold rings that don't fall within that notch pattern (lest we forget that pulltabs are not all created with equal conductivity).
But I think we tend to over complicate a very simple issue, and it goes back to what I said earlier: you knock out foil and a lot of women's jewlery goes with it. Knock out pulltabs and most men's jewelry is gone. If you do so, you can still occassionally find gold items, but it becomes much rarer.
But we as detectorists have developed a real aversion to digging trash. I guess its because of the high tech detectors we are using these days with all thier target ID information leading us to believe we can find a formula to keep most of the gold and knock out most of the trash. Sorry. The technology just isn't there yet, no matter how expensive the machine you are using.
God knows I hate creating competition for myself. The more notching and discrimination people use the better it is for me. Honestly, they are leaving a lot of gold (and trash) behind and thats good for me. Some people are clearly comfortable with their finds based on their current settings and that is all that matters.
But if someone's sole focus is finding gold, then yes, as Tom pointed out, you really do have turn your discrimiantion down and dig trash until your arm falls off. Just make sure you are hunting an area where the reward potential is there and make sure you are using a higher frequency machine capable of finding the smaller bits of gold that makes your hunt worthwhile.
I guess the point of my original post was to make it clear that if someone notchs or discriminates when hunting for gold, and someone comes right behind them and finds a ring or pendant that they discriminated out, they should not be upset about that. That's the breaks in gold hunting. It all depends on what your "trash to treasure" ratio is. The lower it is, the less successful you are going to be, IMHO.
Yes, technically that is true. You can narrow you notch width or discrimination settings. So on some detectors you can notch out one kind of pulltab and still get other pulltabs and gold rings that don't fall within that notch pattern (lest we forget that pulltabs are not all created with equal conductivity).
But I think we tend to over complicate a very simple issue, and it goes back to what I said earlier: you knock out foil and a lot of women's jewlery goes with it. Knock out pulltabs and most men's jewelry is gone. If you do so, you can still occassionally find gold items, but it becomes much rarer.
But we as detectorists have developed a real aversion to digging trash. I guess its because of the high tech detectors we are using these days with all thier target ID information leading us to believe we can find a formula to keep most of the gold and knock out most of the trash. Sorry. The technology just isn't there yet, no matter how expensive the machine you are using.
God knows I hate creating competition for myself. The more notching and discrimination people use the better it is for me. Honestly, they are leaving a lot of gold (and trash) behind and thats good for me. Some people are clearly comfortable with their finds based on their current settings and that is all that matters.
But if someone's sole focus is finding gold, then yes, as Tom pointed out, you really do have turn your discrimiantion down and dig trash until your arm falls off. Just make sure you are hunting an area where the reward potential is there and make sure you are using a higher frequency machine capable of finding the smaller bits of gold that makes your hunt worthwhile.
I guess the point of my original post was to make it clear that if someone notchs or discriminates when hunting for gold, and someone comes right behind them and finds a ring or pendant that they discriminated out, they should not be upset about that. That's the breaks in gold hunting. It all depends on what your "trash to treasure" ratio is. The lower it is, the less successful you are going to be, IMHO.
CladDog: How do you explan the results that 53 Silver is getting with his Golden uMAX in the videos below. They seem to suggest that you can very easily "notch" out foil and pulltabs and still find gold rings. After watching them I wanted to run right out and buy a Golden uMAX. However, your cautionary response has me reconsidering. Is there a reason I shouldn't base my buying decision solely on the results I see in those videos?
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
I would not make ANY decision based on what you see in videos.........
The trouble with notching out everything between a nickel and a zinc cent covers a LOT of the spectrum that harbors nice sized gold rings. On a White's VDI spectrum that is rejecting everything from +19 to +68, half of the targets in the non ferrous spectrum.
The trouble with notching out everything between a nickel and a zinc cent covers a LOT of the spectrum that harbors nice sized gold rings. On a White's VDI spectrum that is rejecting everything from +19 to +68, half of the targets in the non ferrous spectrum.