And that is the problem here with people that want to continue arguing about the magical effectiveness of the iron mask switch on the GT. How a detector copes with the problem of iron masking depends on a lot of things but it has nothing to do with seeing through iron. No detector made will see through iron. The detector has to at least see part of the target. How it sees that target close to iron is dependent on many different things like mineralization, sensitivity setting, sweep speed, the discrimination range through adding more or less bias to certain size iron coupled with the response or recovery speed of the detector. Even when setting the discrimination for iron when it comes to masking there is a fine line that comes into play. The goal is to set it at a point where you are neither fulling accepting the iron or fully rejecting the iron. You really can't depend on that all the time either as it's size sensitive also. Either one though is still useful in certain situations depending on the the other features above. If people want to continue thinking that the Iron mask on the Sovereigns means that it will work on all size iron regardless of discrimination, orientation, ground mineralization, so on and so on then fine. I never read Tom's book testing masking effects where he blew some minds and big myths about target masking using something as small as a staple to mask out coins but I should though.
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iron mask memory
- Thread starter wildherre
- Start date
The problem that I see is the fact that many people would like to believe that Iron Mask really is majgical ..... It's like the nail and the coin trick .....Everybody is WOW'd by this trick , when in reality , that is all that it is .......You and I BOTH know that there are machines out there that will blow the doors off of a Soveriegn as far as masking iron if the iron is nearby ....I showed a video on an Omega 8000 on another forum where they did not appreciate seeing that demonstration either .....Nobody wants to believe the truth about what the features on thier machines really do, or don't do ...... At this point , it doesn't really matter to me anymore ...... I know the truth and they are guessing, or are being led to believe that whatever they hear is true ......They are arguing a point from what they read , and not from actual hands on EXPERIENCE !!.....I have a Sovereign GT and an E Trac right there at the very same time checking the very same targets ...... Some folks say " the target is too deep for the Sovereign with it 's 10 inch coil ......yet the same people will talk about being in mineralized ground and digging out dimes at 10 inches !!!.....You CAN"T have it both ways ..... A Silver dime down 6 or 7 inches in the ground , should not be a problem for either machine to hit ......I've also heard that there is nothing that can come close to the Sovereign in ID'ing a target ..... That too is not true !!..... I can prove it .... and have proved it to myself , and to my partner three times in 2 hunts ..... I wish we all lived closer together ....I would LOVE to go out to ANY park and check targets machine for machine .... Bring a neutral judge to watch the entire process ...... You are NOT going to teach or explain anything to someone who does NOT want to hear it ..... I KNOW I can prove what I am saying ...... I'm sure that if I put it on video , that there would SURELY be some other excuse for why I got the results that did ..... The soil was different , the clouds were not sitting right in the sky, your coil was different , there was too much trash in the ground , there was not enough trash in the ground .....It would always be something .... ( in my best Jack Nicholson voice ) " YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH " .....
The Sovereign is a wonderful machine , and does it's job admirably .... It is very old technology that was way ahead of it's time when it first came out ..... It still holds it's own and then some today ....I will not take that away from the Sovereign and will defeind the Sovereign until I die ..... I will NOT however tell people sometihing about the Sovereign that it is NOT ....I'm not going to fool people into thinking that its better than what it really is ..... It has it's limitations ....Few as they are , they are there as plain as the nose on the end of your face ..... Few people can make the comparisons that I do , because they do not have these machines right there in front of them to compare ...... There is no sense in me , or you for that matter , to try to explain the differences or the reality of these machines ..... Everybody wants to think that they have a machine that for a cost that is next to nothing, will bury Minelabs flagship machine ..... So be it .....I've tried ot share my experiences with others , and I have tried my best to give HONEST reports , and there are some folks out there that really DO get it ..... Most don't want to get involved , and in a big way, I don't blame them ..... I don't believe in what I believe in because of what somebody told me ....I believe in what I believe in because I have EXPERIENCED IT !!...... Jim
The Sovereign is a wonderful machine , and does it's job admirably .... It is very old technology that was way ahead of it's time when it first came out ..... It still holds it's own and then some today ....I will not take that away from the Sovereign and will defeind the Sovereign until I die ..... I will NOT however tell people sometihing about the Sovereign that it is NOT ....I'm not going to fool people into thinking that its better than what it really is ..... It has it's limitations ....Few as they are , they are there as plain as the nose on the end of your face ..... Few people can make the comparisons that I do , because they do not have these machines right there in front of them to compare ...... There is no sense in me , or you for that matter , to try to explain the differences or the reality of these machines ..... Everybody wants to think that they have a machine that for a cost that is next to nothing, will bury Minelabs flagship machine ..... So be it .....I've tried ot share my experiences with others , and I have tried my best to give HONEST reports , and there are some folks out there that really DO get it ..... Most don't want to get involved , and in a big way, I don't blame them ..... I don't believe in what I believe in because of what somebody told me ....I believe in what I believe in because I have EXPERIENCED IT !!...... Jim
Neil
Well-known member
crazyman said:
I didnt know Tom D. even had a book out, I might look into that. I did buy and watch his video several times before I resold it to someone. The silent masking was an eye opener and really the staple he shows and references is the same as some soils, quite possibly the same as the irons spots you hunt.
What was really eye opening is when he does this test where he slowly circles a target, telling you whats on the sides of it and you can hear the target dissappearing once some iron is introduced in the coils field of detection. Thats one of the main reasons we can rehunt some of the same spots over and over and still find stuff, simply the angle of approach.
He also clearly shows how to compare one detector against another. Tom is one of those guys who takes nothing for granted, doesnt take another persons word as gospel, does his homework and really excels in learning a detector.
and his detectors of choice are the F75 and T2, he uses others as well but those two specifically he states are the ones that are best for "unmasking targets".
His video is excellent, I recommend anyone who hunts to give it a good watch or two.
Neil, It might be a video instead of a book I was thinking about and I've only read some of his posts on target masking on the forums. Unmasking targets is not dependant on any single setting alone. The Sovereigns are unique in how the iron mask works. The iron mask switch is not just a separate discrimination function. For the iron mask switch to work as a separate discrimination function the Sovereign would have to have close to a full 360 degree range of discrimination with that setting to have a large effect on mineralization while only having a very narrow acceptance range of iron. Plus the acceptance range of iron is so narrow that it can only be seen when the iron is part of the ground matrix. The other problem is turning iron mask on and off effects the sensitivity to EMI also. What single setting or adjustment through the flick of a switch could effect the sensitivity to iron, mineralization and EMI all at the same time? Normally only an adjustment of the transmit or receive sensitivity would have an effect on all three at the same time but increasing the sensitivity to iron this way would normally have adverse effects when it comes to masking unless there was some additional filtering or some separate processing of the the iron signal through the microprocessor on the Sovereign GT. All I know for sure is the end results when turning it off or on. Only Minelab knows how it does it.
synthnut said:
I'm with you, if i'm invited or go to a new place i always reach for the Etrac just in case as its so adaptable(i'm sure other detectors are too) there are places the sovereign just doesn't cut it and i can't hunt there with it(iron mask on or off)not with any pleasure or confidence at least. Finds do come out but its much more pleasurable and easier to use something else more adaptable to the site, I still use the sovereign as i love its sounds and it works well in most cases but on ocasions its just not pleasurable and to me thats what hobbies are about. I've come away from places real frustrated and annoyed on varios occasions then gone back with the etrac and had good results. Some could say its because i'm maybe not experienced enough to benefit, or i was just having a bad day, there is always some excuse as you mentioned, but for all i'm always learning i can hold my own on most sites and enjoy my day finds or not.
Any detector has its limits whoever the operator, when you see for your own eyes that limit being exeeded by something else its time to move on and reap the rewards, not just with finds or keeping up with the joanses but personal satisfaction and enjoyment in the hobby, if you lose that you may well give up.
On reading some posts/forums the Sovereign appears like a CULT/Gold Deep Silver only machine and if you don't do well your just not up to its level, times move on.
I was one of those who just assumed that IM should always be on when working in iron (even though it is right there un the manual that it may be best off if the ground is mineralized)... this begs the question: Why is IM such a big deal... why is it pushed so hard as a fetature, as something to help unmask targets in iron when most places that have lots of iron are also mineralized? Besides that it increases falsing on iron and destabalizes the threshold. It certainly seems to me to be more of a feature that is there to be used in the rare occasion when conditions permit... sort of like the TX boost on the V3i, it is there but rare are the conditions where you should use it.
So... after your calling my attention to it, I re-read the manual and now I understand that the IM switch is there in case you happen to run into a place where you can turn IM on and get better results. Now I understand that the normal and best setting for me is IM=off.
I now see the IM switch as being there to turn IM on... not to turn it off. I don't have many, if any, places around here where IM=on might be a benefit, not even when I go to the beach because at the beach I usually want to move fast and look for shallow recently lost jewellry...
I am very happy to now have more stability and the ability to run the sens a little higher by running IM=off... this completely got by me, even though it isin the manual, I missed it and learning this has made a big difference in where I can set the controls. In my test garden, which is not santized, it works better, especially on some deeper targets.
Thanks...
J
So... after your calling my attention to it, I re-read the manual and now I understand that the IM switch is there in case you happen to run into a place where you can turn IM on and get better results. Now I understand that the normal and best setting for me is IM=off.
I now see the IM switch as being there to turn IM on... not to turn it off. I don't have many, if any, places around here where IM=on might be a benefit, not even when I go to the beach because at the beach I usually want to move fast and look for shallow recently lost jewellry...
I am very happy to now have more stability and the ability to run the sens a little higher by running IM=off... this completely got by me, even though it isin the manual, I missed it and learning this has made a big difference in where I can set the controls. In my test garden, which is not santized, it works better, especially on some deeper targets.
Thanks...
J
his detectors of choice are the F75 and T2, he uses others as well but those two specifically he states are the ones that are best for "unmasking targets".
His testing is done in inert, non-mineralized Florida soil and isn't much different from air testing, except that iron and other metals are involved. In mineralized ground the T2/F75 will not touch the E-TRAC for unmasking... nothing will. Well... maybe the GBSE/G2 but that is hearsay, though from a good source. I intend to find out!
J
His testing is done in inert, non-mineralized Florida soil and isn't much different from air testing, except that iron and other metals are involved. In mineralized ground the T2/F75 will not touch the E-TRAC for unmasking... nothing will. Well... maybe the GBSE/G2 but that is hearsay, though from a good source. I intend to find out!
J
Neil
Well-known member
jbow said:
that is correct Julien, florida is where he hunts mostly. Ive never hunted it but will take your word for it on it being inert but please dont compare it to air testing, its not the same. and those other metals you mention, specifically iron, well thats a large part of what we are talking about isnt it?
I dont know if your statement is true about the mineralized ground, the stuff we have here isnt to bad so I cant personally say. if its true why do you muddle around with other detectors when you have an etrac? looks like you have both the T2 and F75, so what are you getting out of them that you cant get out of your etrac?
I've advised people in the past to try iron mask off if they have bad ground and were having trouble with with stability and depth but I didn't push what I knew about the iron mask myth until Des posted the video using trickery to make people think that it did something it actually can't do. I assumed people would at least try it for themselves before defending the outcome of that silly test.
It is like they are saying... with the IM on the Sovereign will detect a non-ferrous target in a bed of nails... however, it may detect a non-ferrous target in a bed of nails better with the IM off.
Huh?
I guess I get it... you have to use your brain, you have to see what works at each site and what works for you and your hunting style at each site. In some cases the IM on will enable the Sovereign to unmask non-ferrous targets in iron, in other cases IM off will enable the Sovereign to unmask non-ferrous targets in iron.... well... ok then.
They are trying to make the IM on seem like something that will ignore iron and detect non-ferrous metals in and around iron BUT... if that were the case, why cover their arse by saying... "maybe it will, maybe it wont"...?
What have I learned from this ongoing and very good discussion? I have learned to not just switch IM on and hunt with the best TH I can get... I have learned that when I go detecting with the Sovereign I need to either grid a small area and hunt it both with IM off and IM on... and/or I need to find an iffy target and check it from multiple approaches with IM on, IM off, auto sens with IM off and on, and manual sens with IM off and on site... and I need to check it in AM. I need to see how everything works at that site... and not only at that site but at that site on that day because EMI and ground moisture changes, sunspot activity can affect settings... I have learned that I should take NOTHING for granted, not only with the Sovereign but with all detectors because I seem to learn something new every day. So I am going to use what I know and at the same time assume I may be wrong about everything.
So does Iron Mask help to unmask non-ferrous targets close to iron... sometimes yes, sometimes no.... you better check it out at every site every time.
That is what I think... of course, I must assume I am wrong... but that changes nothing... it just reinforces my thinking that I need to assume nothing and check everything, everywhere, everytime.
Heck... this solves everything!
Julien
Huh?
I guess I get it... you have to use your brain, you have to see what works at each site and what works for you and your hunting style at each site. In some cases the IM on will enable the Sovereign to unmask non-ferrous targets in iron, in other cases IM off will enable the Sovereign to unmask non-ferrous targets in iron.... well... ok then.
They are trying to make the IM on seem like something that will ignore iron and detect non-ferrous metals in and around iron BUT... if that were the case, why cover their arse by saying... "maybe it will, maybe it wont"...?
What have I learned from this ongoing and very good discussion? I have learned to not just switch IM on and hunt with the best TH I can get... I have learned that when I go detecting with the Sovereign I need to either grid a small area and hunt it both with IM off and IM on... and/or I need to find an iffy target and check it from multiple approaches with IM on, IM off, auto sens with IM off and on, and manual sens with IM off and on site... and I need to check it in AM. I need to see how everything works at that site... and not only at that site but at that site on that day because EMI and ground moisture changes, sunspot activity can affect settings... I have learned that I should take NOTHING for granted, not only with the Sovereign but with all detectors because I seem to learn something new every day. So I am going to use what I know and at the same time assume I may be wrong about everything.
So does Iron Mask help to unmask non-ferrous targets close to iron... sometimes yes, sometimes no.... you better check it out at every site every time.
That is what I think... of course, I must assume I am wrong... but that changes nothing... it just reinforces my thinking that I need to assume nothing and check everything, everywhere, everytime.
Heck... this solves everything!
Julien
Going out and checking things for YOURSELF is what I have been advocating all along ....I pleaded with people to do the same experiment as Des did, and then report back and see what THEY came up with ...... Everybody was so busy patting Des on the back for a great report , and NOBODY even bothered to check out what was shown .....Are we THAT lazy that we can't try things out for ourselves ? ........ There are MANY things that are not written in the manuals that you will learn in the field ..... It's hard for most people to compare their detectors with other machines , so they really can't judge right from wrong in some cases, however , you CAN check tests that are done online if you have the same machine ...... Learn from others , but DOUBLE CHECK to make sure that what they are telling you is true .....
Kered ,
You are in the same boat that am in .....I think the same way you are thinking ....Why should I GUESS at what the numbers are telling me , and why should I have to go thru all these measures to try to figure out what a target is , when I can set up a preset and have the best discriminaton out there, and have a machine that will do the unmasking for me , iinstead of getting some wierd number and having to dig to find out what it is ? ......That's what the EVOLVEMENT of the machines is all about ....I paid a high price for my machine ......When you see what it does in the background for you , you know that it's worth every penny !!......
Crazyman ,
Normal and Difficult is a BRILLIANT idea and this is what SHOULD have been put on that switch !!......Look now on the E Trac ....Minelab now calls this "QUICK MASK " .....NO MORE IRON MASK !!!....... YES !!!!!!!!
Kered ,
You are in the same boat that am in .....I think the same way you are thinking ....Why should I GUESS at what the numbers are telling me , and why should I have to go thru all these measures to try to figure out what a target is , when I can set up a preset and have the best discriminaton out there, and have a machine that will do the unmasking for me , iinstead of getting some wierd number and having to dig to find out what it is ? ......That's what the EVOLVEMENT of the machines is all about ....I paid a high price for my machine ......When you see what it does in the background for you , you know that it's worth every penny !!......
Crazyman ,
Normal and Difficult is a BRILLIANT idea and this is what SHOULD have been put on that switch !!......Look now on the E Trac ....Minelab now calls this "QUICK MASK " .....NO MORE IRON MASK !!!....... YES !!!!!!!!
I have found, as Crazyman has said, the soil to be, in Oregon, so horrendous that achieving a threshold tone without nulling is impossible with iron mask on (except if I use auto sens). I found that I can detect a dime at 7", in the ground where I search, with sens ~1:00 to 2:00 with iron mask switched in the off position. In fact, since I learned this, I have noticed that almost every place I detect in the PDX area requires these settings to achieve a decent threshold.
Old comes to new ......There is a setting in the "Expert" area of the E Trac that says "Ground" .....You have your choice of Neutral , or Difficult .....It has to do with high mineralization or low mineralizaton .... Has nothing to do on the E Trac with "Mask" !!.....Funny when you trace things from the beginning , you see the EVOLVEMENT and what cntrols stay with other machines, and they become more clear to you what they REALLY are !!!....
The switch was never meant to be a discriminator. If it was they would not have needed to have a separate switch, they would have just expanded the discrimination range on the discriminator the same as they did on some of their first single frequency models but they still kept the ground switch. Since the BBS technology separates ferrous from non ferrous in most cases according to them there was no need to add the expanded discrimination. The ground switch/ Iron mask switch operate the same. They both react to mineralization the same and in bad ground they both respond to some hot rocks and certain size iron only when they are part of the ground matrix when iron mask is on and/or the ground switch is set to normal. This is why people who deal with heavy mineralization see the effect more so when the switch is set to off.