Going strictly by memory here, We debated the iron mask on/off deal 6 or 8 years ago, even did a poll.. Seems like it was about 80 percent saying iron mask on worked better, 10 percent no difference 10 percent iron mask off better.... Back then David Keith was kicking azz relic hunting with an original with iron mask off ( Tennessee, Georgia area I believe.. In the field test Andy did, he reported better results with iron mask on.. Ive got an email somewhere from Andy where I ask him about it and he acknowledged that he was aware David was using iron mask off for great depths in the South but where he( Andy) did the field test it was not the preferred mode.. We even were able to figure out how to turn off the iron mask off/on the XS and later models but dont think anyone beside myself actually did it & I converted it back when I sold the detector... Around here, (Indiana) on was/is better.........If off works better where you are, do it .. No big deal either way.. Turn it on, turn it off , who really cares?? Set it where you want it & go out & have some fun..........wildherre
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iron mask memory
- Thread starter wildherre
- Start date
Neil
Well-known member
David was actually the first one I remember from back then that was promoting the all metal pinpoint mode on the sov, I know he used that alot and swore he could distinguish between a lot of targets, but claimed it took quite awhile to learn it. Interesting isnt it how the old becomes new again, given enough time.
For what its worth, the minelab engineers eliminated the on/off toggle option on the iron mask after the first Sov and then all the way up to the GT, then they reintroduced it. The Elite was where the real changes in the sov appeared, new control box and battery system were the major changes and then it just looks like minelab took the stuff they had inside that was switchable with jumpers and the other options and bundled them up in the GT. and of course on the GT, besides the standard all metal pinpoint mode thats been on them since day one, they added the tracking all metal mode that was taken off the Eureka I believe it was, so the GT has the two types of all metal modes. the GT is really the cadillac of the sovs, its got all the options
I agree its best to see what works for you, where your at, always. sometimes we all seem to loose sight of just plain hunting for the fun of it.
Ever wonder what finds you would all have if the time you spent here on the forums was time spent actually detecting?
For what its worth, the minelab engineers eliminated the on/off toggle option on the iron mask after the first Sov and then all the way up to the GT, then they reintroduced it. The Elite was where the real changes in the sov appeared, new control box and battery system were the major changes and then it just looks like minelab took the stuff they had inside that was switchable with jumpers and the other options and bundled them up in the GT. and of course on the GT, besides the standard all metal pinpoint mode thats been on them since day one, they added the tracking all metal mode that was taken off the Eureka I believe it was, so the GT has the two types of all metal modes. the GT is really the cadillac of the sovs, its got all the options
I agree its best to see what works for you, where your at, always. sometimes we all seem to loose sight of just plain hunting for the fun of it.
Ever wonder what finds you would all have if the time you spent here on the forums was time spent actually detecting?
And that will negate the need to turn iron mask off in some cases. Turning iron mask off in bad ground is like using auto sens. but without the depth loss. Andy also in his field test of the Original Sovereign not only used auto sens. but also turned iron mask off when hunting in the thick iron.
I know what the results are in my ground between on and off but I'm still curious as to how it actually works. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with just iron discrimination alone. I bet most people don't give the iron mask switch a second thought and since iron mask has always been associated as a major part of the detectors legend it's only natural they would leave it on.
It's surely not going to make a big difference for everyone. If Minelab hadn't suggested turning it off years ago I would never of thought of turning it off because I thought the iron mask was what made the Sovereign so special and I thought I would have a less effective detector if I turned it off. In my case it made the detector more effective in some bad conditions. I think what some people consider bad ground in one part of the country might be considered mild in another so the benefits of turning it off might not have the same results for everyone. The only way to know is to try it.
Crazyman,
I am sure somewhere in one of these threads there is an answer on this issue, what is the indication that you have soil that is so bad that you decide to turn off the iron masking? Honestly I am not sure when this is the case? Is it no stable threshold, or frequent false signals, nulls? Maybe I just missed it in be background noise around here.
How does one make that decision?
I am sure somewhere in one of these threads there is an answer on this issue, what is the indication that you have soil that is so bad that you decide to turn off the iron masking? Honestly I am not sure when this is the case? Is it no stable threshold, or frequent false signals, nulls? Maybe I just missed it in be background noise around here.
How does one make that decision?
otlew .....
Turn your Sovereign on , and ajust it just like you would normally adjust it .......Go somewhere , where you find your Soveriegn particularly noisy .... For example I had mine on the beach today , and it was a lot more noisy than the parks that I frequent ...... I flipped the band switch to band 1 and that did not make a lot of diffence , so I knew that I was not dealing with RFI ...... I could lower the threshold , or lower the sensitivity , but rather than do that , I merely went into Iron Mask OFF ...... That quieted things down for me on the beach that I was detecting on, and made the Soveriegn usable , WITHOUT having to turn down sensitivity or Threshold ...... I have NEVER noticed any lack of depth using Iron Mask OFF ..... Jim
Turn your Sovereign on , and ajust it just like you would normally adjust it .......Go somewhere , where you find your Soveriegn particularly noisy .... For example I had mine on the beach today , and it was a lot more noisy than the parks that I frequent ...... I flipped the band switch to band 1 and that did not make a lot of diffence , so I knew that I was not dealing with RFI ...... I could lower the threshold , or lower the sensitivity , but rather than do that , I merely went into Iron Mask OFF ...... That quieted things down for me on the beach that I was detecting on, and made the Soveriegn usable , WITHOUT having to turn down sensitivity or Threshold ...... I have NEVER noticed any lack of depth using Iron Mask OFF ..... Jim
If Iron Mask was suppose to always be on, Minelab would have hardwired it to be on as they did in earlier models .....They changed it when enough people complained .. ......They realized that there are certain conditions ( High Mineralization ) where turning it OFF could work in the detectorists favor .... It's THERE for a reason .... If your soil warrants leaving it ON , that's great !!.....If you run into soil that does not want to cooperate with you, turn it OFF and that is also GREAT ...... You also have a band 1 and band 2 switch ..... If Band 1 runs quieter than Band 2, would you stay in Band 2 ? ...... It's all up to the individual ..... There is nothing etched in stone that says it should be ON all the time, and there is nothing that is etched in stone that says it should be OFF all the time ..... It's there for you to use as you see fit ....There NO RIGHT OR WRONG here .... The manual states that the depth is a little greater with Iron Mask ON ..... I don't know about you, but if I'm not hearing my targets clearly because there is so much noise from High Mineralization the added depth is not going to help me ....Its just going to introduce even MORE noise ......Sometimes, and I'm finding A LOT OF TIMES , seperation and audibility superseeds depth by a longshot !!......If you can't hear your targets , it doesn't matter how deep your macine can go ........It's a matter of preference and convienience ..... It's one more control to try out if you need to ..... Jim
Neil
Well-known member
synthnut said:
Jim youve got it wrong here. Minelab eliminated the iron mask switch which was on the first sov series because they considered the best operation of the sov was with it on. Was there alot of complaining to remove the switch then? No, they wanted the best results to be had from the sov and thats the way they figured it worked best. what would they know right, I mean they are the engineers/testers/builders of the sov
Even when they revamped the sov series by creating the Elite, they did not install a toggle to turn the iron mask on/off. So the longest run of time on the Sov was with the iron mask hardwired in, no option to turn it off. Take a look at time frames of the prior sovs and you will see that.
The GT is just a culmination of everything Sov, plus they added an extra all metal tracking mode(which is really what sov users should be trying and testing out instead of homing in on iron mask on/off). Theres just to much emphasis on this toggle and for someone new to the sov that could lead someone to look for something that just isnt there. It wasnt mentioned alot over time by users for a reason. Alot of us had the orignal sov and tried everything imaginable with it, so its not some long forgotten function that breaths new life into the sov.
Im not an electronics guy who works for minelab and I dont think your are either so lets keep things real here for everyones benefit. On the Explorer and Etrac the iron mask is just a discrimination point. period. nothing more. My money says its the same on the sov, why would it be any different? the explorer and etrac evolved off the sov, took its functions and made them better and also added alot of new functions.
Minelabs very definition of the iron mask of the sov bears this out, they describe its function as a disc point.
One thing I agree with Crazymans posts are the Sovs lower end disc range(iron range) is both narrow and starts way to high. Lower the iron range acceptance and give it a broader range and then add in iron mask adjustability and you will have REALLY improved the sovs performace.
Now if Crazyman or yourself benefit from switching in and out of iron mask then so be it, but really take a look at all the posts on it and you have to admit your making it seem like a major adjustment on the Sov and its just not.
And if minelab was really changing the Sov as you say, based on complaints, then we would have a 3lb sov by now, and the GT is the heaviest of all the Sovs
BTW I see you sold a Sov on the forums, if you got the price you were asking, well done
Neil ,
I stand corrected on what models had or didn't have the Iron Mask on/off ....... I do agree that the E Trac has a wider Iron Range and discriminates much better than the Sovereign ...... What I am NOT doing is making the Iron Mask switch a major adjustment ......Quite the contrary !!...... I have said many times over that I use it merely as a filter to quiet things down a bit ..... As far as I am concerned , it is NOT adjustable, and is so narrow a range that it really isnt ALL THAT at all ..... Sorry if I made it seem like I was glorifying or overstating the Iron Mask feature .....It's like a noise reduction switch to me ......Going into Iron Mask ON , I really have not seen ANY depth improvement one way or the other on ANY of the targets that I have found with the Soveriegn .... The only REAL benefit that I have seen from this feature is the Sovereign runs more quietly with this switch OFF ....That's it !!....Nothing more , nothing less .....I'm sure that Mnelab had great intentions to descirminate iron better with this switch ....It didn't happen ....No I'm not an engineer , nor do I profess to be , but there is no way in the world that anybody can tell me that the Sovereign does a better job at unmasking targets better than the E Trac .... I have experienced this too many times in the field ......My partner is hunting with an E Trac , and I was with my Soveriegn ..... He could CLEARLY identify masked targets on numerous occasions that the Sovereign simply could not ..... It mattered not whether Iron Mask was ON, or OFF ..... The attempt was made on the Sovereign , and was accomplished with the E Trac ..... Again, I'm not an engineer , but I do know what works for me , and what doesn't ....... There were so many issues with Iron Mask whether it should be ON or OFF and whether or not they should include a switch for it as time went on .... You can see that also by following the history as you have pointed out to me .....So much confussion that they NOW call it " Quick Mask " on the E Trac .....It now is a broad discrimination that is adjustable ...... or you can run it wide open with no discrimination to check your targets .... There are other features on the E Trac that wil also enhance detecting ..... Fast ON /OFF ....Trash Density High / Low ....besides having a wide range of discrimination .... The E Trac really IS the evolvement of the Sovereign AND the older Explorers ...I have also seid that tme and time again .... I don't remember saying that Minelab was changing the Sovereign ....Is a matter of fact when everyone was talking about what they thought Minelab would do to the new Sovereign , I said that they would probably faze it out of the lineup ..... Thanks for your reply, and corrections on the Soveriegn lineup .... I'm glad to know that someone is out there keeping the details straight ..... Sincerely, Jim
I stand corrected on what models had or didn't have the Iron Mask on/off ....... I do agree that the E Trac has a wider Iron Range and discriminates much better than the Sovereign ...... What I am NOT doing is making the Iron Mask switch a major adjustment ......Quite the contrary !!...... I have said many times over that I use it merely as a filter to quiet things down a bit ..... As far as I am concerned , it is NOT adjustable, and is so narrow a range that it really isnt ALL THAT at all ..... Sorry if I made it seem like I was glorifying or overstating the Iron Mask feature .....It's like a noise reduction switch to me ......Going into Iron Mask ON , I really have not seen ANY depth improvement one way or the other on ANY of the targets that I have found with the Soveriegn .... The only REAL benefit that I have seen from this feature is the Sovereign runs more quietly with this switch OFF ....That's it !!....Nothing more , nothing less .....I'm sure that Mnelab had great intentions to descirminate iron better with this switch ....It didn't happen ....No I'm not an engineer , nor do I profess to be , but there is no way in the world that anybody can tell me that the Sovereign does a better job at unmasking targets better than the E Trac .... I have experienced this too many times in the field ......My partner is hunting with an E Trac , and I was with my Soveriegn ..... He could CLEARLY identify masked targets on numerous occasions that the Sovereign simply could not ..... It mattered not whether Iron Mask was ON, or OFF ..... The attempt was made on the Sovereign , and was accomplished with the E Trac ..... Again, I'm not an engineer , but I do know what works for me , and what doesn't ....... There were so many issues with Iron Mask whether it should be ON or OFF and whether or not they should include a switch for it as time went on .... You can see that also by following the history as you have pointed out to me .....So much confussion that they NOW call it " Quick Mask " on the E Trac .....It now is a broad discrimination that is adjustable ...... or you can run it wide open with no discrimination to check your targets .... There are other features on the E Trac that wil also enhance detecting ..... Fast ON /OFF ....Trash Density High / Low ....besides having a wide range of discrimination .... The E Trac really IS the evolvement of the Sovereign AND the older Explorers ...I have also seid that tme and time again .... I don't remember saying that Minelab was changing the Sovereign ....Is a matter of fact when everyone was talking about what they thought Minelab would do to the new Sovereign , I said that they would probably faze it out of the lineup ..... Thanks for your reply, and corrections on the Soveriegn lineup .... I'm glad to know that someone is out there keeping the details straight ..... Sincerely, Jim
Your right, you get better performance in moderate mineralization with iron mask on as far as slightly more depth and and the possibility of improved masking in some circumstances according to Minelab. Also according to Minelab in bad ground and trashy sites you could get better performance with iron mask off. There is no argument here because you can't argue with results on either sde of this debate and especially with Minelab and their suggestions of when to use iron mask and when not to use it. It's not just a narrow band of iron discrimination alone or Minelab wouldn't suggest turning it off to help cope with instability in bad ground. They also wouldn't suggest turning it off in trashy areas.The only argument then is the effectiveness of iron mask when it comes to masking of good targets by iron. Even Minelab has never over hyped the effectiveness of using iron mask on when it comes to masking because they state it is also dependant on other factors like settings and hunting conditions. So the effectiveness of using iron mask on or off also is solely dependant on the user, his ground and his hunting conditions.
Neil
Well-known member
synthnut said:
Jim I am with you 100% on the etrac, what a super detector. I still find it hard to put the explorer down as I did when I was sov hooked and was trying to learn the explorer. Ive made excellent finds with both.
I think Clive Clynick is right when he says one detector helps you learn about another one.
Neil
Well-known member
crazyman said:
Mike all Im gonna add at this point is using an explorer or etrac would show you more of how the sov really works.
also, why did you bother with the elite a while back when iron mask off was so important to you? I like the elite myself, never bothered me about the knobs location functions that some guys complained about. My biggest beef with it was cosmetic, it was painted instead of all the way through the plastic. That was straange minelab did that, I dont think they ever did that to any other detectors they made.
Neil, I'm not new at this and I know how masking works and the difference between the GT's iron mask and the Explorers when it come to having the same discrimination range to help with iron masking in any way are not even close. I bought the Elite for beach use only and auto sens. worked well there but on mineralized land in iron infested sites it didn't work as well. I bought the GT for the iron mask switch and sold the Elite because I had good success with the original Sovereign years back when hunting with iron mask off just as Minelab suggested both on the beach and on land. I hadn't planned on using the GT as my main detector especially in iron but as a deep coin hunter in cleaner ground. I'm sorry but the GT or any Sovereign is not considered a great detector for hunting iron infested sites. It's response is to slow and the iron mask is to limited. The switch on the Original Sovereign was marked normal mode and iron mask mode, not on and off. There is a reason why they gave you the choice of using the normal mode and it was explained in the manual. Right now I'm doing my best to find a good workaround for the GT's weakness in thick iron using what I know already of what it will do between on and off and the design of newer DD coils to help separate good targets from iron. If I can't make it work I will keep it as my deep coin machine and add the Minelab Musky back into the arsenal for the real thick iron.