Initial Impressions Of 13" Ultimate, Size Comparison Pics With 10" Tornado & 12x10, & Actual Weight On Scale. Then In Day Or Two First Field Report. :

[Critterhunter]

Got the Detech 13" Ultimate in the mail today that a forum member so generously offered me to try out since he can't get around to using it for several weeks yet. Took some pics of it with the stock 10" Tornado and SEF 12x10 for size comparison, overlaying them with each other so you can get a good judge of the sizes in comparison.

I picked up the package and my first initial impression was that it didn't really feel like anything was in the box! Man, I heard the coil was light but I didn't realize it felt this light, and that's still in the box with the packaging to protect it during shipping. Anxious removed it from the box and saw that it was the white version, as Detech is now making a black version too due to popular demand. Picked it up and WOW! This thing is light. I've got to throw it on a scale right now and see what we are talking about here...

I've got a good digital scale and with the coil cover still on and coil cable included on the scale it was a scant 22.2 ounces in total weight!

Removed the coil cover and weighed the coil again and it's now only 20.2 ounces! What did they put inside this thing, feathers?

Along with the pictures at the bottom of this post, you'll also see a picture of a coil weight chart I put together with it compared to others in it's class that will make it even more shocking when you realize we are talking about a 13" ROUND coil here! I would expect a lighter than expected weight from SEF shaped coils, but not from a "conventional" round coil that is true to it's size in total diameter from any angle.

I like to ditch the coil cover on my coils and use spray on bed liner to protect the bottom and sides of the coil. Makes for less hassle with cleaning under covers, looks great, and even a few ounces saved makes all the difference when you are talking about that weight being at the end of your shaft after a long day's hunt. I've seen a WOT coil painted top and bottom with spray on liner and it looked great, just like a factory textured finish. I was never a fan of the orange color of the WOT so that's what I'd probably do if I owned one, and if I got a white version of the 13" Ultimate I would for sure paint it top and bottom too with bed liner. The stuff is indestructible and the looks would really give it the "wow" factor like the WOT I saw. 4 or 5 coats weigh next to nothing. Mere grams, and much lighter than any coil cover I every weighed.

This coil is of course a loaner so I'll be using the cover at all times. With the cover removed I can't say it was the must sturdy looking coil cover I've ever seen. It'll do the job for sure, but for one thing it doesn't go as far up the sides of the coil as a typical cover does. I guess that's to be expected because this is one thin coil from top to bottom. Not really an issue, just thought I'd point it out.

I next gave the coil a good once over and was impressed with it. I hear these coils are not rated waterproof so I'm guessing that means they aren't filled with epoxy, hence the super light weight. I've owned solid coils on other machines that weren't water proof and they were mushy if you used your thumb to squeeze the top of them. This coil is not mushy on top, so something else is going on here then just a hollow/soft casing. Happy with the quality of that. By the way, I have seen at least I think 2 Excalibur users using this coil in the water, but not being (I guess?) epoxy filled if there is one breach in the casing of a coil not filled with epoxy it could mean disaster. If you do decide to chance water hunting with it, make sure you read this next paragraph...

Next I checked the coil cable nut where the cable goes into the top of the cable. Sure enough it was very loose, just like many have reported with Detech's SEF coils when shipped. I'm not sure if they do that to take stress off the cable due to the potential of the top of the box pressing down on it, or as somebody suggested perhaps it's to equalize the pressure during cargo flights. Either way, not a big issue. Just tighten it down and give it a hair more of a turn with a wrench. Not too much or you might crack it. This one I only hand tightened since it's not my coil. My normal routine with all my coils is to put silicon or rubber cement on the nut threads and also under the rubber cable sleeve to seal them both before tightening the nut down.

Over all impression of the coil? It's sharp looking and unbelievable light. I only wish it was the black version, but if I like this coil and decide to buy my own I'll ask Kellyco if they've got any black models in stock. Failing that, 4 or 5 light coats of spray on bed liner top and bottom and I'll be good to go.

Next post will be the first field report on it. Taking it to one of my deepest coin spots. Fairly clean large mowed grass field that sits very low, so even with it's heavy clay soil it gets very swampy at times and has caused coins to sink very deep. I've pulled my two deepest coins at this site at around 11" deep with the 10" Tornado and I'm sure more lurk about the place just waiting to be found. I've only used the 12x10 there a few times and the soil was bone dry, although I did pop several 8 or 9" wheats that I think I passed over with the Tornado before yet due to the dry conditions I missed them with it while the 12x10 seems to give me that "easy" 8 or 9" depth even when the soil is bone dry. That might not sound too impressive but my soil tends to range from moderate to higher minerals, although I do have some sites where the mineralization is very low, but not at this spot. We'll see how the Ultimate does there.

Notice in the pictures below how the Ultimate makes the 10" Tornado look like the 8" Tornado in size almost. That's why I like seeing pictures like this with various coils laid over each other for size comparison, as it really gives you a good idea of what to expect and judge sizes by compared to your present coil when shopping for others.

Also included below is a coil weight chart I just put together with the Utlimate compared to our weighed weights of various other coils in it's size/class range for comparison...

 

[deepdiger60]

Nice Critter ill be3 looking forward to hearing how good it works on a hunt , iam looking today at both 13" and the sef 12x10 haven't made my mind up yet . Jim

 

[Critterhunter]

Sorry, ran out of time to fix to blaring mistakes in the coil weight chart. I said 8 ounces of bed liner on the Tornado when I meant 8 coats, which only added up to about point 2 ounces. I also screwed up the order from light to heaviest coals, so I fixed all that...

 

[rl48off]

Hey Critter
I just purchased the Ultimate last week and if it isn't waterproof I need to sell it. but what really gets my goat the company I bought it from should have told me knowing that I beach hunt and water hunt too. I need to find out if this coil is ok to water hunt like my 10x12 sef is. I'm really going to be very upset if it isn't

Ron

 

[Critterhunter]

If you search this forum for "Ultimate" there was a thread about two months back roughly that had two different guys using it to water hunt and they didn't report any problems that I saw. These were two of the lucky ones that got the only two Sovereign versions of this coil way early, long before when Kellyco got them in only a few weeks ago. And since Kellyco is the only authorized US source for Detech coils as far as I know, this coil is just begging for some Sovereign field reports. I plan to do my part and hope others will too.

Back to the two Excalibur guys...I *think* I remember one might have mentioned it was slightly buoyant, which would be expected if the coil isn't filled with epoxy. I think he said it was only slight though and not really a problem. I suspect it's not epoxy filled perhaps because that's when a coil is rated waterproof as far as I understand, because even with a breach in the casing water can't get to the vitals because they are incased in epoxy is what I always heard and it would seem to make logical sense.

BUT, if you are going to risk water hunting with it (I'm not, especially since it ain't my coil), be sure to remove the coil cable nut where it connects to the coil and slide it and the rubber cable sleeve back. Put silicon or rubber cement on the threads and also thickly on the cable where the rubber coil sleeve is going to slide down so it too is sealed to the cable. I prefer Shoe Goo which is super thick and dries clear, yet stays elastic so it won't crack. Great for waterproofing things, as it was originally invented for repairing holes in shoes I think. Then hand tighten the nut down and then turn it just a hair more with a wrench. Not too much or you might crack it.

I do this with all my coils, whether I use them in the water or not, because there is no point in being able to remove the nut anyway. If the wires break down past the nut you can pretty much kiss the coil goodbye anyway, and coils can't be taken apart for repair so why a removable nut? Well, I have seen Sovereign/Excal coils taken apart and the pre-amp fixed (a somewhat unique circuit found only on the BBS machines and Xterra line as far as I know), but that doesn't require removing the nut.

Only real way that I saw you can get them open is to use an angle grinder to cut away the outer casing and then peal it back, and then have to dig into the epoxy to get at it. Not worth the effort IMO. And about the only thing you could fix is the pre-amp or a broken wire connecting to it or the TX/RX coils, because if there is a problem with the RX or TX coil windings themselves like a bare spot lacking varnish to insulate the wires from each other you'd never find it. By the time you did you'd have the entire coil disintegrated and chipped out of the epoxy. And that would destroy the positioning balance of the two coils by the time you got that drastic.

WARNING: I wouldn't seal the nut/rubber sleeve if you're under some kind of warranty as that could void it. Same deal with using spray on bed liner. About the only thing I'd do until a coil was out of warranty would be to perhaps tighten the nut down a bit without using any sealer on the threads, but who knows even tightening the loose nut down might be an issue for a warranty on a coil?

By the way, if you are using your 12x10 in the water a lot of people have reported those coil nuts being loose too. The SEF coils are rated waterproof so I assume they are epoxy filled, but my fear is that water might wick down the wires to the pre-amp or something. If it's under warranty I'd at least make sure that nut is snug, and if it's not under warranty I'd do the precautions with Shoe Goo or something I just described above. Going to say it again, if you tighten a coil cable nut down just get it as hand tight as you can and then only turn it a hair more with a wrench or you risk cracking it. Don't ask me how I know. If it cracks that will destroy the seal, but it didn't matter anyway because I had that hole below the cap caked with Shoe Goo anyway.

 

[rl48off]

OK thanks for that info....already did that with the goo !! I was under the impression that all the coils were waterproof or at leasts 99%

 

[Critterhunter]

A lot of the solid coils back in the day weren't waterproof because they weren't filled with epoxy or otherwise they'd be too heavy. Most spiderweb coils for various machines are waterproof far as I know because most are probably filled with epoxy and wouldn't be as heavy due to not being solid coils. The old BBS 8 and 10" coils were filled with epoxy but they were boat anchors.

Along comes what I think coils have been using for the last 5 or 10 years maybe (???) called micro balloon technology. I only know of it because people use it in glassing (using epoxy) foam RC plane wings to drop some weight from the epoxy. Micro ballons are tiny little plastic deals or something that are very tiny and contain air. You mix it with the epoxy and it will lighten it up beyond belief and yet still the epoxy is waterproof and strong.

I suspect that's what is being used in many coils these days. Even probably the SEF coils because they are dirt light for their size. I bet the Tornado coils are using something like this maybe because they are so much lighter than the old BBS versions of the same size coils? I suspect the Ultimate isn't epoxy filled though because it's not rated waterproof, just water resistant.

 

[stumppass]

I've had one on an Excal for several months now, it's not very stable in or around the salt water however it's a beast in the dry sand!

I'll keep it on till the end of summer then may try the 10 x 12.

13 Ultimate on Excal

 

[Critterhunter]

OK, yesterday I couldn't make it out for a hunt but did have enough time to take both coils out for a little depth testing on a freshly buried dime. Yea, I know, Minelabs do better on coins in the ground for years but I tested the 12x10 against the 10" Tornado this way and I feel it's a good general rule of thumb of depth at certain sensitivity levels to compare both coils on which gets deeper at the same static manual sensitivity setting for both. I'll explain in a minute on that.

Went to a remote wooded area nearby where I like to test coils because I can park right next to the clear spot in the woods so I can swap coils on the bed door of my truck with it opened to act as a table, and don't have to walk a mile away to get in a nice flat/open area in the woods far away from EMI. This soil is rich black loamy stuff from rotted leaves. Like quality black topsoil you buy in the store, but with a tiny bit of clay mixed in it perhaps. The soil was dry and before testing I scanned the spot to make sure no iron or other junk was nearby to screw up the testing.

I buried a clad dime at 5" and started with the 12x10. My plan was to keep slightly lowering sensitivity until I could no longer hear the coin or get any kind of response (even a null from it), only dropping sensitivity by tiny amounts and then trying hard to pull a signal at different sweep speeds from super slow to fast to make sure I just am barely dropping sensitivity to a point far enough where the last little bit of any kind of response is impossible now. As a side note, I found that the coin hit harder with what you might call a medium to fast sweep speed versus a slow one, but keep in mind this is a freshly buried coin and also that even medium or fast on the Sovereign is probably what you'd call medium to slow on a fast sweep machine.

Before doing the lowering thing I first wanted to see how high sensitivity could go with the threshold staying rock stable. Found, as I often do, that the 12x10 allowed full blast manual as far high as it will go before clicking into Auto and the machine was stable as can be with no threshold roaming/resetting as I swept around. I would do the same with the Ultimate when I threw that on to compare and will mention the results in a minute here.

Keep in mind that the sensitivity dial goes counterclockwise, so the more clockwise you turn it the lower it gets, and the more counter clockwise the higher before finally clicking into Auto.

Anyway, so as I barley lowered sensitivity more and more while sweeping from slow to fast to insure I just barely reach the spot that any kind of response or null is no longer possible, I found that even at the lowest manual sensitivity setting possible this 5" dime was still hitting just fine and banging coin easily. Wow, pretty impressive. Time to bury the coin deeper because I need to be able to keep sensitivity low enough to no longer hear the coin. Stuck it at 7" deep this time (measured with a ruler) and now the point where no response no matter what sweep speed was 5PM, or the dial pointing right at the letter "T" in the word "sensitivity" on the GT's face plate. Pretty darn low to kill any response at 7", so that's impressive. People shouldn't fear turning down sensitivity to get the machine stable. It still gets killer depth at a low setting.

OK, played with the dial up and down a few more times to make sure I was just hitting the right spot where no response to be had despite changing sweep speed. Once I was happy I had it right I never touched the sensitivity again and threw the 13" Ultimate on. I wanted to see if the Ultimate could get a response from the coin at the same sensitivity where the 12x10 couldn't anymore. Tried super slow all the way up to super fast and no response from the Ultimate. That at least says the Ultimate is no deeper at the same sensitivity setting perhaps. Where as when I lowered the sensitivity before on the 10" Tornado until I just lost the signal completely and then threw on the 12x10 the 12x10 had no trouble hitting the coin, telling me the SEF is deeper at the same sensitivity setting as the Tornado. That's why I like to do this test as one of several types when comparing coils.

Now I wanted to judge how high I had to turn sensitivity before I finally started getting any kind of response, even a null, from the Ultimate. It was about 3PM on the dial (from the point of 5PM where no response was heard by it or the 12x10) where the Ultimate started responding to the coin in any way. That's a good bit higher than 5PM. Two hours worth. I did not judge the point where the 12x10 started sounding off to the coin by looking at the dial (wish I would have) but I think it was just a hair above the 5PM by feel. Like maybe 4 to 4:30 or so, so I'm pretty sure the 12x10 starts giving a response at a lower sensitivity setting than the Ultimate. But don't bet on that 100%, as I had only done that by feel and forgot to look at the dial when I tested that on the 12x10. I'm going to do the same test again later and will record that "first response" spot for both coils again so I can say for sure, but I think the 12x10 was just a tad higher than 5PM when it started giving a response.

So next, wanted to see how high I needed to raise the sensitivity before the Ultimate would go 180 on a coin. That was about 2:30 PM on the dial. Only a half hour difference between where the coil first would hit the coin and where it could ID this 7" dime. That tells me it will ID almost as deep as it sees. Pretty good. Forgot to note that point of first proper ID on the 12x10 to compare, so will do that next time for both.

Next I raised the sensitivity of the Ultimate to see how high it would go before it became unstable. At full blast sensitivity the coil was a bit unstable. Not too much to where it's not huntable, because I tend to ride my coils at this level of instability. Right on the edge where the threshold will reset here and there. So I was pleased in this low EMI environment at full blast it was only a tad unstable, but as noted the 12x10 was completely stable at full blast, so I'd have to give this one to the 12x10 as well as the depth at lowest sensitivity test above too. I am thinking perhaps the Ultimate might never be able to ride full blast without a touch of instability anywhere, because this was good low or no mineral topsoil and in a remote valley far away from any potential sources of EMI. Now, it could be that the EMI suddenly was stronger in the area (that can happen) and the 12x10 would have also been a tad unstable at full at this moment in time too. That's why it's not fair to judge until all these same tests above are done over again.

I'd have to give the max sensitivity still being rock solid stable and most depth at lowest sensitivity setting to the 12x10 for this first round of tests, but don't read a ton into this. I need to do this same series of tests one or two more times to be sure of results, because often results can be subjective or with changing conditions (soil, EMI) one coil might do better than the other at another site.

Also, just because it appears the 12x10 is deeper at lower sensitivity settings on a 7" dime, that does NOT mean that the Ultimate might not take the lead at higher sensitivity settings on deeper coins. A dime buried at 9" will of course require a higher minimal sensitivity setting for both coils to see the coin, say just losing the signal at perhaps a 1PM setting as you drop it down to see where it no longer responds, and it may be that the Ultimate is more "in tune" with it's design when it's ran at higher sensitivity settings. Know what I mean? Like the difference between a guy who runs marathons and a guy who runs sprints. Both are out of their leagues if they try to compete with each other in each's style of race.

Maybe the Ultimate at higher sensitivity settings will reach deeper than the 12x10. That's why more tests are in order to see and such. And, this time the Ultimate goes first with dropping sensitivity until I just lose the coin and get no response. That way it's fair as each coil got the chance to go first. If the 12x10 is indeed deeper then when the Ultimate loses the signal and the sensitivity dial is not touched, the 12x10 should be able to hear the coin when I swap over to it and there will be no excuses because the sensitivity isn't being adjusted between coils which could alter the results. That's why I do this test this way, so there's no doubt.

I'm also going to have a second dime buried on edge for the next test. One flat for the depth/sensitivity thing (this time at about 9"), and the other shallower (say 6") but on edge. That way we can see if one coil hits coins on edge better than the other. The 12x10 for sure likes coins on edge. Maybe the Ultimate is better though. By the way, I did stick a dime at 6" at the start and completely on edge before I got started with the other tests. I had planned to include it in the series of tests yesterday but I found the 12x10 (before lowering sensitivity to do the other test) could bang on that dime completely vertical with a perfect ID from any angle. That was impressive, but I was running out of light so I didn't want to waste time sticking it deeper. I want the dime on edge to be just deep enough so that one coil is having trouble hitting perfectly on it from certain angles. That way with one coil borderline having trouble it will make it clear if the other is better at on edge coins at that depth. Anyway, I didn't check the Ultimate on that dime because of the above reason I just gave to wanting the coin deep enough on edge to give the first coil I use trouble so I can clearly see what the other does with it.

 

[Critterhunter]

By the way, in my testing of the two coils yesterday even though my 12x10 is 2.2 ounces lighter, (as I don't use a coil cover but instead spray on bed liner on the 12x10, and as the Ultimate has it's coil cover on and weighs 2.2 ounces heavier when both are compared that way), the Ultimate "felt" lighter on the end of the shaft. It must be a subjective thing, seeing that big of a coil (and a white one at that) at the end of your shaft, yet the weight seems impossibly light for that big of an image at the end of the coil. Felt like I had a big paper plate on the end of the shaft. The fact that this 13" coil is lighter than the S-12 (but I don't know if the S-12 weight was with or without a coil cover in the chart) and is lighter than the 10" Tornado with the coil cover off even too, makes the weight of this coil all that more impressive for a 13" round coil. Just boggles the mind. The fact that the Ultimate with coil cover is still almost a full ounce lighter (.9 ounces) lighter than the 10" Tornado WITHOUT a coil cover is something to behold for a coil that is 3" bigger in diameter. Very impressive.

Oh, by the way, I measured the Ultimate to be sure of it's actual size. While it is a true 13" wide at it's widest point, measuring from tip to toe at it's longest point this coil is only 12 & 1/2" long. That means it's got only 1/4 of an inch more coverage at the tip and tail than the 12x10. Sure, it's got 3" more width than the 12x10, but when I think of coverage per sweep I think in terms of tip to tail because the DD line is like a wiper blade. The center of the coil from tip to tail is what "covers" the ground as you sweep left/right. The extra bit of wideness width wise in a coil is only giving you that extra bit of inches at the left and right end of a sweep, if you know what I mean. It doesn't add more coverage as you sweep, just a bit more at the end of each sweep. Hope you see what I mean here.

One final note: after the testing of the Ultimate I noticed when I got home that it had already got dirt trapped around the lip of the coil cover. Not a lot, but much more than you would expect for the little bit of testing I did in one spot. I had mentioned the coil cover doesn't ride very high up the side of the coil. About halfway up. I *think* most coil covers I've used go all the way up the side of the coil or at least further than half way? Either way, even if other coil covers don't, keep in mind this coil is SUPER thin. Never seen a spiderweb design coil this thin. So the halfway point up the side of the coil is not as much as it would be on a thicker coil, thus probably more prone to picking up fine dirt or sand between the coil cover and the coil. Not a big issue as I'd use spray on bed liner and ditch the coil cover like I do with all my coils, but I figured I'd mention it. The coil cover is also not a pain in the backside to take off compared to some others, so it would be a fairly easy task to clean under it, as I didn't need to use a screwdriver or anything to pry it off. Just my fingers.

As a side note about the super thin thickness of this coil, that could be a big perk to water hunters. Being round it should glide through the water much easier than say the 12x10 or for sure the 15x12 in that they are kind of squarish in shape (equalling more water resistance), and the fact that the Ultimate is the thinnest coil I've ever seen height wise also means it should offer very little water resistance in that respect as well. I bet this coil might be even less drag in the water than even somewhat smaller round coils perhaps.

One more thing before I forget about the shape of the SEF coils. Keep in mind these coils hold their width more uniformly over the entire length of the coil, so a round 10" coil might be just as wide, but in fact that's only at the very center of the coil for a very tiny part of the length of a round 10" coil, where as the 12x10 maintains a wider width for more of the length of the coil. For a 12" round coil it may in fact be wider than the 12x10, but I would like to see a picture of one over it to see if the 12x10 is wider towards the tip and tail if you know what I mean. Judging by the pictures though, you can see the 13" Ultimate is for sure wider than the 12x10 over it's entire length pretty much. But, far as I know, the depth of a DD coil is more dependent on it's length than it's width. Think about it...Little SEF like trash coils like an 8x6 are an attempt to increase separation (6" wide coil) while still maintaining excellent depth (8" long). Same deal with the 12x10. Depth of a 12" coil (and in fact I believe deeper due to it's unique detection field generated), but with the separation of a 10" coil. In fact, that's not the best way to put it, because the 12x10 is better (easier) at separation left/right wise than my 10" Tornado, and the Tornado is an excellent coil in separation.

What's I'm saying is that if the 13" Ultimate is deeper than the 12x10, that is going to be counting on perhaps (just IMO) the extra 1/4" length of the Ultimate maybe, and not it's 3" wider width at the very center of it. Then again, I don't know what is going on in terms of the technology used in the windings of the Ultimate or the pre-amp (it might be using the very latest in low noise/high amp amplification ICs in the pre-amp circuit, but then again the SEFs are only a few years old so probably using the same chip). It might be that should the Ultimate be deeper it's due to something unique inside the coil and not just it's physical size.

I doubt the Ultimate is going to separate left/right wise as good as the 12x10 just due to the smaller size of the 12x10 if not anything else, but also because of the unique field generated by these SEF coils which really compresses the width of the DD line. They also generate a less "fuzzy" field compared to round DD coils IMO. But, I have read a few blurbs on the FBS machines that the Ultimate tends to sound off to coins in iron better than conventional round DD coils. That sounds interesting and I'm going to work some heavy iron areas with it to see what it can do. Also, the Ultimate is said to separate rather well for a round coil of it's size. And, look at the shape of it. It's not a "conventional" round DD coil. Looks suspiciously much like the Pro Coil in many respects, and we all know how the FBS guys loved the depth and separation of the 11" Pro Coil over the old 10" Explorer coils.

 

[Critterhunter]

Forgot to add...If I do find the Ultimate looks to be not as deep in my soil than my 12x10, don't assume that to be gospel for you in your soil. I found the 15x12 got less depth than even my stock 10" Tornado in my soil due to the 15x12 taking in too much ground signal and thus washing out coin sized targets more at depth. Some people say the 15x12 is deeper than their stock 10" or 11" (pro coil on FBS machines) coils on coin/ring sized targets in their soil. Despite the mineralization at my fresh water beaches, the 15x12 was deeper than stock in the sand. Just not on land for some curious reason.

So, what I'm saying is that in my soil it's either going to be a 12 or 13" round coil as the max size to still see gains in depth on coin/ring sized targets in my moderate to heavier mineralized land sites. It might be that even a 12" round coil is beyond the point of no return in coin/ring sized target increases in depth. Just because my 12x10 shows me gains in depth over the stock 10" coil, a 12" round coil sees more ground than the unique field generated by the SEF. The SEF is a very "non-fuzzy" "tight" kind of field I've never seen before in any DD coil I've used so far. Sure, the 10" Tornado was excellent too and not generating a "sloppy" field, but the 12x10 seems like it's got a very "distinct outline" on it's field shape like I've never experienced before. For that reason I believe this coil rides on and sees less "ground stew", and so washes out targets at depth less by soaking in less of that ground signal. I suspect the Ultimate has a similar detection field to the Pro Coil. If that's the case, it too should be a rather "clean" field and so sucking in less ground as it goes.

For that reason I have high hopes this coil will show me depth increases in my soil. But, if it doesn't, that doesn't mean it won't in your soil if your minerals are a bit less or you have a different type of minerals than mine which might not conflict with the way these Minelabs ignore the ground signal as much. Just want to throw that out there, because just like some say the 15x12 is deeper than stock in their soil where it wasn't in mine, you may find the Ultimate deeper in your soil if it turns out is isn't for me. Heck, some guys say they get even more depth in their bad soil with an 8" coil than a 10" coil. Even on Minelabs that can happen, though not as commonly as on other machines due to how these Minelabs compensate for the ground signal which is unique among metal detectors. I think I remember Crazyman saying he got more depth with his 8" coil then he did his 10" Tornado in his soil.

 

[Critterhunter]

What's I'm saying is that if the 13" Ultimate is deeper than the 12x10, that is going to be counting on perhaps (just IMO) the extra 1/4" length of the Ultimate maybe, and not it's 3" wider width at the very center of it.

Ran out of time to edit this. Meant to say an extra 1/2" of length than the 12x10, and as said I don't know what is going on inside the coil so it may get more depth on that alone and not even be relying on it's 1/2" size advantage in length.

 

[rl48off]

I bought one 2 weeks ago and hope it's not a flop and a big worthless hype. So far I'm not really impressed with it. I think my SEF 10x12 puts it to shame. I'll wait to see what you come up with, before I sell it.

Ron

 

[Critterhunter]

The FBS guys seem to like the coil. Some say it will sound off to coins in iron better than other round DD coils and that it separates pretty good for a coil it's size. I've also heard that it makes deep coins sound loud just like the 12x10 compared to other coils. But, I've heard it doesn't separate as well as the 12x10 and the depth at the most (so far) might be a toss up between them. Haven't really seen any solid reports on the depth between the two compared on the FBS units. Then again, I THINK one guy a while back in the Etrac forum compared it to his 12x10 in the field but I don't remember what he said. I'll see if I can dig up a link to that thread and post it.

Keep in mind what I heard above is the FBS version. Some coils perform differently on other machines because of the unique internals to each coil for specific platforms.

 

[Critterhunter]

Keep in mind that these are FBS reports, so the coils might differ from machine to machine. For instance, while the SEF coils look to perform the same on the BBS and FBS units, a few coils in the past didn't. And, the FBS versions of the SEF coils are a good bit heavier than the BBS versions, so keep that in mind when they talk of the weight of the 12x10 to the Pro Coil or the Ultimate. For instance, on the BBS versions of 12x10 without coil cover is point two ounces lighter than the Ultimate without coil cover, and with coil covers the 12x10 is only point six ounces heavier. Note that when you see them talk about the 12x10 being a good bit heavier than the Ultimate or Pro Coil for the FBS machines. The BBS version of the SEF coils are pretty darn light as you can see in the coil weight chart in the coil sticky on page 1. You can also see the weights of the FBS versions of the SEF coils in that chart too. Also, these threads listed below go from newest to oldest as I listed them in the Etrac and Explorer forums because of the nature of how the search function brought them up for me. If you want to read them in order then start with the one at the bottom of each forum listed here and work your way to the top. That's what I'm going to do so I'm not lost, like watching a move from the end to the beginning would be.

From the Etrac forum...

This thread talks about both compared...

13" Ultimate Coil vs 10x12 SEF Silver dime trio & Colonial Button

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1705938,1706159#msg-1706159

This one mentions the 12x10 too...

What I think of the new Detech Ultimate 13" coil after several hunts in the field.

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1695855,1695863#msg-1695863

From the Explorer Forum, Bryce, a master at coil field tests. You can REALLY put your trust in what this guy has to say!

Ultimate 13" coil vs pro coil and 10 x 12 SEF coil... short and directly to the POINT...and something I want you ALL to know

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?19,1692757,1692804#msg-1692804

This one mentions the 12x10 too because of course Bryce has used both

Field Test: 13" Detech Ultimate coil. Narrowly missed a silver dime grand slam...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?19,1673794,page=1

I don

 

[rl48off]

We need more info on Sovereign GT and the 13" DD Ultimate. I'm not fully impressed on the beach here in fl

 

[Critterhunter]

You may get your wish today, because I intend to compare it to the 12x10 on undug deep targets at a known deep coin spot later. I just got a handful of poker chips together that I numbered so I can lay them on spots of deep targets found with one coil, then record the chip # and response/quality/ID and such, and then later when I swap coils I'll re-check those spots and write down any difference in response between the two coils. Then I have to use the second coil to find more deep targets and let the coil that went first before re-check those, because that's the only way to find out if one coil is better at depth, on edge stuff, masked stuff, or targets at certain conductivity ranges (say nickles for instance) than the other. I'm really looking forward to this testing doing this poker chip thing. Any super deep target or one shallow but masked badly will be marked. I don't need any iffy coin hits but of course that would be my first choice. Just deep stuff or shallow/masked, regardless of what the machine thinks it is, would be revealing to the abilities of both coils. I'll then record what each target was when dug up.

 

[rl48off]

Great ! I think the 12x10 will outperform the Ultra DD I'm only saying this because from what I can tell having both coils. I really don't see a difference yet. My opinion .....the 12x10 SEF will prevail

I'm very curious to see what you can find out. I'm hunting the beach different ground but still curious
Ron

 

[Critterhunter]

OK, the scene...A remote mowed field, far away from roads, people, EMI and any other distractions. It's surrounded by woods so it's very exclusive. Rarely do I see a person here unless they are taking a long hike with a dog or something.

The soil. Somewhat mineralized. Bone dry with lots of limestone clay in it. Yet despite the heavy(er) clay in this soil, this field sits very low from the surrounding land and so gets very swampy at certain times of the year, thus the coins sink deep in this site. So far my two deepest coins ever have come from this site, an indian head and a v-nickle, both in separate holes at about 11". Both banged hard and IDed perfect with the stock 10" Tornado. The soil that day was ideal in terms of being wet but not overly soaked. I find that too wet can lose depth as much as too dry.

While I have hunted with the 12x10 here a few times before, those were dry soil days so I wouldn't expect to meet or beat the 11" the Tornado was able to achieve on that ideal moisture content day, especially with the moderate to higher mineralization at this site. At many of my sites (like this one) an 8 or 9" dime or wheat is a remarkable feat under dry conditions. Only the best two of my non-Minelab machines were able to reach 7.5" on a silver dime in any of my soils like this one, dry OR wet. Only my Minelabs were able to break that 7.5" barrier on a silver dime or wheat in this soil. The fact that my Minelabs got deeper in this soil even in dry conditions is a feat, because I have dug 8 or 9" wheats here the few times I took the 12x10 to this site and it was bone dry, yet they were fairly "easy" coins.

The Tornado could achieve those depths on a dime or penny in this soil too under dry conditions, but not with as "easy" of a signal (it required more work and didn't achieve as good of a hit on them at 8 or 9" when dry as good as the 12x10 does). I really need to work this site with the 12x10 when the moisture in the soil is ideal because every test and experience with it in the field has told me it's deeper than the Tornado. I just haven't proven that yet by breaking that 11" record when the soil is the right moisture, but as said in dry conditions it's getting 8 or 9" dimes/wheats easier than the Tornado and also my tests show the 12x10 is deeper even at the same sensitivity settings. And yet more stable, so I can often run it's sensitivity much higher than the Tornado.

Enough of the lead up about the site, let's get to the hunt with numbered poker chips in hand to mark undug targets! I didn't have as long as I would like, so even though I carried 10 numbered poker chips with me and a note pad to record responses, I wouldn't be marking that many targets today. The Ultimate would go first this time...

First I wanted to test highest sensitivity while remaining stable. At full blast sensitivity the threshold was unstable and kept dropping lower (without nulling). Not in pitch when I say lower, but in volume. That's another sign of too high of sensitivity. You have to be careful of that because it can seem "smooth" but you can tell the threshold has dropped a good bit in volume to where you can just hardly hear it. Not to mention the machine was somewhat erratic. Could I have hunted with sensitivity full blast like this? Yes, and I did some, but it was destroying the ID on targets making them impossible to "build up" to the proper ID #.

This was a low EMI environment, and even with the coil held still so as to exclude the ground causing the problem, the machine was still resetting on me. Time to lower it to where it's just a tad unstable once in a great while. Swept around and kept playing with sensitivity. Found that 12 noon was right where I like to ride the edge of instability. Just a tad of threshold reset here and there (like maybe every 10 seconds or so at the most). That I can live with, and more importantly the threshold wasn't dropping out as I swept or kicking down in volume. Very important to only have the threshold resetting here and there without the lower volume thing or without falsing a bunch. Both of those or nulling from too high of sensitivity happening too much can cost you targets. You never want to ride sensitivity so high that you can no longer tell targets from falses without checking, or so high that the threshold keeps nulling out. If you suspect it's iron then re-sweep the spot. Doesn't null every time? Then you are either sweeping too fast or have sensitivity too high because iron would null every sweep.

Anyway, jumping forward to the 12x10 sensitivity thing. When I strapped it on at full blast sensitivity it was unstable too, but far less than the Ultimate was. I could easily hunt with the 12x10 at full this way, because it was not dropping out the threshold nearly as much nor was it cutting the threshold volume down like the Ultimate was at highest sensitivity. Odd, as I've ran full blast with the 12x10 here before with no problems. Must be EMI. Regardless, I found that with the 12x10 set at 11PM it was mimicking the same slight level of instability of the Ultimate at the noon setting. Roughly the same amount of off and on resetting every 10 seconds or so. One thing though, the 12x10 was "smoother" with the slight instability. Like a car riding over bumps that has better shocks to smooth out the ride. That's the best way I can put it. So it appears the 12x10 is allowing higher sensitivity without being unstable at this site, and that jives with the Ultimate being a bit unstable at full blast at the other site the other day where I did the dime test, while at full blast the 12x10 was solid as a rock there. And I also turned the 12x10 today up to noon where the Ultimate was right where I wanted it's stability (meaning sightly unstable) and the 12x10 was completely tame without a hint of resetting or anything. Sure looks like the 12x10 is more stable at higher sensitivity levels, but before putting a stamp on that a third testing session should prove out one way or the other on this. It might be stray EMI that the Ultimate doesn't like but the 12x10 can handle, while at another site it might be the reverse. If the 12x10 is still riding higher sensitivity at a third site then I'd say we've got a conclusion on that. BUT, does that mean more depth? Not so fast...Read on...

Flashing back using the Ultimate...First thing I notice while looking for the first target to mark was when I hit a super shallow target this coil made them much louder than the 12x10 does. I keep the volume on my GT all the way down because I don't have volume controls on my headphones. If I turn it up higher than lowest setting on the GT surface targets are uncomfortably loud. The Ultimate made them louder but not beyond comfort. I wasn't sure if this was my imagination but found out later it wasn't, which I'll cover further in this post.

The targets, the Ultimate finding them first. I marked all targets with the Ultimate first and then later put the 12x10 on to check them, but will report both coil's response as I list the targets for streamlining sake here...

A) First one marked was a 176 # two different ways, a 180 one other way. Not easy to work up but there for both coils. Same exact difficulty, same three angles only to get those numbers. Turned out to be a rusty piece of steel about the size and thickness of a quarter cut in half at 8" deep (I'm using a ruler to measure this stuff). Verdict? No difference from either coil. But with one important difference.

The Ultimate made the target much louder! Not that I couldn't easily hear it (or any of the following targets) with the 12x10, it's just that the Ultimate makes them sound perhaps approaching twice as loud maybe! I might as well spill the beans right here. I noticed this on several of the deeper targets. The Ultimate was distinctly louder.

Now, I keep the volume all the way down and even still the 12x10 was plenty loud enough to hear these targets, but there is no doubt the Ultimate makes them louder. In fact, they sounded roughly half the deep or maybe even only 3 or so inches deep with the Ultimate on all these 7 to 9" targets. Now, could that mean the Ultimate will see deeper by hitting on weaker signals deeper even while running the needed lower sensitivity setting to keep it at the same stability of the 12x10? Don't know, but it's interesting to ponder that question, ain't it?

As a side note before moving on, remember I can run the volume all the way up if need be for the 12x10 to make deep stuff sound louder so I don't think that's an issue. And besides, I find that even with the volume on the GT all the way down I can hear the slightest/deepest/first response the GT is able to see. But, Minelab does say to run volume all the way up and then turn it down some on your headphones (or use a headphone with a limiter circuit like the popular Sun Ray Pro Golds...I need to get a pair of those just in case I'm costing myself depth, but I don't think so). If Minelab techs say max volume on the Sovereign to insure hearing the deepest of targets got to be something too that. I doubt it boosts the depth of the machine but it might insure that the slightest AUDIO RESPONSE is amplified and not ignored. Know what I mean?

Target B) 106 to 108 VDI. Good any direction but slightly roaming ID. A sure sign of trash if the VDI ranges by 3 digits or more. Good hit from any directions. Same response/ID for both coils. Turned out it was a blob of foil roughly twice the size of a quarter at 2" deep. Appears both coils are sensitive to lower conductors at least this big. No difference between machines, and oddly I didn't think the Ultimate was any louder this time.

C) Target ranging from 70's to 80's in VDI. Shallow sounding. Same response from both machines from any direction. Turned out to be a blob of foil about 2" in size and very thin. A 70's to 80's VDI is pretty low on the conductivity scale, and with both coils hitting as good on it I saw no difference here. I need to test on tiny stuff and see which is more sensitive on say earrings and such.

D) This one should be interesting. Ultimate hits a 176/177 any direction. Fairly loud like it's 2 or 3" deep but I've already learned this coil makes stuff sound that shallow that is deeper. And by the way, don't let that throw you off. You just have to re-adjust to the loudness of a target to judge it's depth. Not like you lose the ability to tell depth with this coil. You just have to re-learn the "scale" of loudness from deep to super shallow in terms of the volume it gives. Anyway, since I had already learned that, I was fairly confident this target might be 6 or 7" deep based on how loud it was. 12x10? Same easy response any direction, and this time I knew...the 12x10 was not nearly as loud and confirmed my suspicions this was probably a 6 or 7" wheat. Dug it up and yep, 6" wheat! In this soil, this dry, having been hit so hard by so many of my machines (and other people's) over the years, ANY wheat out of here is a victory, and I can't imagine how any of us missed it because this site is mostly devoid of trash in this area and I know I've worked it hard before with prior machines/coils. Just that I haven't ran the 12x10 here much yet, but just the same the 12x10 hit it just as good, just not as loud, but still easily hearable.

C) OK, here's another interesting one. A 180 signal with the Ultimate from only two directions and it requires work to get it there. 12x10? Same response, but once again not as loud, but still once again easily hearable. Verdict? Another wheat and this time about 8 to 9" deep! Wow, two in this short of time at this time. And at 8 or 9" deep at a spot where that's the outer limits of this soil on a wheat when it's bone dry. What that told me is that both these coils can rumble in this somewhat mineralized soil and it being dry as I've ever seen it. That alone should say the Ultimate is a worthy competitor to the 12x10! I really must bring both coils back soon, and also work it harder with the 12x10 when the Ultimate goes back home to it's owner.

Conclusion? The Ultimate is getting deeper than any prior machine I've ever used at this site, just like the 12x10. That tells me this coil is no push over, but it doesn't tell me if it's deeper or not than the 12x10, and I still haven't tested the separation of them against each other as this site was clean. Oh, forget though...I did run it through one area near a large tree where there does happen to be a lot of iron. Seemed stable enough to me without the falsing some coils can have issues with in iron. As smooth in the iron as the 12x10? Well, that's saying a lot, but maybe. Haven't compared them enough yet in that respect to see, but let's just say the 12x10 will be hard to beat in that respect, because it's got a reputation among FBS and BBS guys as being smooth as butter in heavy iron or rough ground too. I can at least say the Ultimate wasn't giving me issues in that iron. To be fair though, I didn't walk but for about 5 minutes around in that iron patch, as today I only wanted to judge it's depth against the 12x10.

The biggest thing to take from today? Well, the target ability was a complete toss up at 8 or 9". Didn't see either coil get an easier read on targets, nor more stability with the ID making one easier to climb the target to proper numbers. But the biggest surprise, besides both coils hitting fine on a couple of deep-ish wheats *for this soil in dry conditions*, was that the Ultimate by far was surprisingly louder. Not just on the shallow stuff, but also on the 7 to 9-ish deep targets. Like I said, it made those targets sound 2 or 3" deep *at the most*, and maybe even like a 1" target perhaps! I'm not exaggerating here.

At first I thought I was imagining things, but this coil can carry a loud tune. In fact, forget if I mentioned it but when I switched to the 12x10 I had to turn up the threshold before I could hear it. Meaning, the Ultimate made the threshold louder at a lower setting on the dial. Is that possible? I don't know, maybe I bumped the dial when switching coils, but it seems to make sense if this coil is seemingly so much louder on targets. I saw this remark made about it in the FBS thread links I posted, so I feel safe to say it's not my imagination here and this coil has got a very loud voice. Again, not a drawback, because you'll quickly learn the new scale of volume to depth of targets. But the big question is this...Does that mean it's a deeper coil, because it for sure is louder with a lower sensitivity setting.

Now, remember my test the other day where it appears the 12x10 is deeper at lower sensitivity settings than the Ultimate? Ponder that for a while, because it gets to be a real gray area when the Ultimate is LOUDER at a lower sensitivity setting. How does that work?

Here's one more thing to ponder and chew on...Remember my remark about perhaps a newer coil (even though the SEFs are only a few years old and relatively new on the scene) might have the latest and greatest in an amplification IC on the pre-amp circuit, because they are always making those things better (meaning lower noise with higher amplifications)? Whelp, if it ain't the size of this coil, and it ain't just say the RX winding being real good at amplifying received signals more "robustly", then perhaps it's a newer/better IC amp? One of these issues might be why this coil is so much louder, see what I mean? But does that equate to more depth? Perhaps, if say the pre-amp (or RX coil, either one) is able to boost the received signal without as much distortion.

Which reminds me, just like the 12x10, the Ultimate has a rather "crispness" to it's audio. Much more "sharp" then the 10" Tornado IMO. Like hearing a sound outside on a cold winter day that has more "clarity" to it. Or, like strumming a guitar string with a guitar pic instead of your thumb. Probably due to the sharpness of the DD line generated on the Ultimate perhaps, because I think that is why the 12x10 makes tones sound so much more "crisp", and also why it separates so darn well.

But while I'll say the ultimate seems to be as "crisp" with it's tones, I get the impression it's not as "smooth" with it's tones. The 12x10 seems to be more "mellow" in it's melody, while the Ultimate seems to want to be a little more "in your face" with how it reports stuff. Now, I'm no musician, so that's as good as I can put it in words, and these are only vague impressions based on very little comparison so far. This could all be subjective and I don't have these impressions right. All I can do is relate what I think I am hearing/seeing, but that could change.

Think that should be more than enough to confuse and annoy people for the day. I seem to be one of those people that you either really enjoy reading my posts on, or it just bugs the heck out of you because of the detail and dragged out novels I tend to write. Either way, it is what it is. I can only say in my defense that in person I tend to keep my mouth shut more. Blame it on my teachers who taught me how to type fast in school.

 

[rl48off]

I enjoyed the reading because I was interested in the results. You did a good job and it is well appreciated by me. As I said before I wasn't over whlemed by the DD over the 12x10 I'm going to keep using it (Ultimate). see how I do. Whats next ????

Ron