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ID segments
- Thread starter jspeedy
- Start date
BarnacleBill
New member
n/t
BarnacleBill
New member
Well.......this could turn into an enormously long thread.
The E-Trac is a row/column arrangement of 1-35, 1-50 displaying conductivity & ferrous ID.
But that being said there is a constant tension for the designer, especially with modern digital detectors, of how to treat resolution, precision, and assignment.
Let's say a designer decides to use a scale of 0 to 1000. Now on paper a potential buyer is going to look at this and rub their hands with glee. Oh boy! I surely be able to tell the difference between say a U.S. Clad Dime or U.S. Silver Dime. That is until they discover that the meter keeps swinging from 750 to 850 so quickly that they can't visually track it. So without precision and stability, the extra resolution is worse than useless, it's an impediment.
Next let's think about an imaginary X-Terra, since the segment display is easy to visualize along the bottom of the LCD screen. Our X-Terra is going to have 20 segments above iron. So we start at foil and work our way up.
During our product meeting we line up 20 empty buckets in a line to represent our segments. I then tell you we have 100 degrees of phase to split up within the buckets, and hand you 100 marbles plus a chart showing where along the phase line different targets respond. Now it's your job to decide how many degrees of phase you want in each bucket(segment). The easy way out is to just put five marbles in each bucket and go rip the tops off of a couple cold ones. But come Monday morning we won't have a job of course.
So let's assume we're making this product for the U.S. market, and we want to have a lot of resolution between U.S. nickels and square tabs. Well in those three or four buckets(segments) we're only going to put a couple marbles(degrees) each, so that we get 2 to 3 segments displayed between nickel & square tabs of different types. But now we're going to have extra marbles we have add to some other buckets. A change was made between the Explorer & E-Trac that effected just such a redistribution and has caused some consternation among the Explorer Brethren.
That being said, various customers(users) have different priorities. For example, those of us that are primarily beach hunters would want zinc pennies through silver bullion bars in bucket(segment) 20. Now take the left over 19 buckets to expand everything below zinc. Other countries have coinage that have a different distribution, so they want their own mapping of the marbles into the buckets. So pleasing everyone is very difficult!
HH
BarnacleBill
The E-Trac is a row/column arrangement of 1-35, 1-50 displaying conductivity & ferrous ID.
But that being said there is a constant tension for the designer, especially with modern digital detectors, of how to treat resolution, precision, and assignment.
Let's say a designer decides to use a scale of 0 to 1000. Now on paper a potential buyer is going to look at this and rub their hands with glee. Oh boy! I surely be able to tell the difference between say a U.S. Clad Dime or U.S. Silver Dime. That is until they discover that the meter keeps swinging from 750 to 850 so quickly that they can't visually track it. So without precision and stability, the extra resolution is worse than useless, it's an impediment.
Next let's think about an imaginary X-Terra, since the segment display is easy to visualize along the bottom of the LCD screen. Our X-Terra is going to have 20 segments above iron. So we start at foil and work our way up.
During our product meeting we line up 20 empty buckets in a line to represent our segments. I then tell you we have 100 degrees of phase to split up within the buckets, and hand you 100 marbles plus a chart showing where along the phase line different targets respond. Now it's your job to decide how many degrees of phase you want in each bucket(segment). The easy way out is to just put five marbles in each bucket and go rip the tops off of a couple cold ones. But come Monday morning we won't have a job of course.
So let's assume we're making this product for the U.S. market, and we want to have a lot of resolution between U.S. nickels and square tabs. Well in those three or four buckets(segments) we're only going to put a couple marbles(degrees) each, so that we get 2 to 3 segments displayed between nickel & square tabs of different types. But now we're going to have extra marbles we have add to some other buckets. A change was made between the Explorer & E-Trac that effected just such a redistribution and has caused some consternation among the Explorer Brethren.
That being said, various customers(users) have different priorities. For example, those of us that are primarily beach hunters would want zinc pennies through silver bullion bars in bucket(segment) 20. Now take the left over 19 buckets to expand everything below zinc. Other countries have coinage that have a different distribution, so they want their own mapping of the marbles into the buckets. So pleasing everyone is very difficult!
HH
BarnacleBill
I know the more you have the jumpier your target ID. The XT30 has 12 notches. The XT70 has 28. The notch window on the XT30 is larger so it would seem more stable. Let's say a detector has198 notches - some do. How stable is that? Not much. The ground, sensitivity and trash targets close to a good target throws the whole thing off. Yes, in air tests everything is fine and dandy. But the old soil will make your TID jump around. On the XT70 what is a nickel in the ground? #10,#12,#14? Would you dig a #10 or a #14 on the XT70 thinking it's a nickel? Maybe not. But the XT30 you would because it would say #12. There are too many things on a lot of detectors that make us "not dig". When you dig a target you visual discriminator is 100% accurate. Time permitting it's best to dig most solid targets. Everyone gets tired. I hunted a new baseball field yesterday. I started in left field and worked across the field toward center. After 2 hours dark was near. I switched from all metal to coin mode and notched out the zinc too. For the next 30 minutes I cruised for high conductors that were 6 inches or deeper. Nothing wrong with that. Now that I cherry picked center field I can re hunt in all metal when I have more time.
Still the basics prevail even after all the advancements in machines.
1st - good beep.
2nd - target sizing using the pinpoint feature or prospecting mode with the XT70
3rd -if available - target notch
4th- if available - numeric indicator.
Good for any make or model.
I get that gut feeling when I'm positive I have a good target under my coil. But still I get fooled.
Still the basics prevail even after all the advancements in machines.
1st - good beep.
2nd - target sizing using the pinpoint feature or prospecting mode with the XT70
3rd -if available - target notch
4th- if available - numeric indicator.
Good for any make or model.
I get that gut feeling when I'm positive I have a good target under my coil. But still I get fooled.
In my opinion, TID segments are simply another "tool" that I use when determining whether to dig or not. Mostly I go by tones, audio changes as effected by sweep speed. Factors such as depth, adjacent targets, angle that the target is buried (etc) can all effect a TID, regardless of the make and model that you chose. The greater number of available TID numbers (notch segments), the more the display is likely to bounce between two or more numbers. That is apparent when you compare the three models I used for my TID chart, when the X-Terras were first introduced. As BB eluded to, digitized TID displays are not linear, as found in the "older" analog meters. With an analog meter, spacing within (and between) numbers was consistent. If you had a meter that went from 1 - 100, then each number could have represented an increase of 1% in target conductivity. However, with digital processing and digital displays, the manufacture controls the "size" of each segment via software.
As for the TID on my X-Terra.....I use it to help determine what is in the hole. Not so much to decide whether to dig or not. But to let me know what it is I should be looking for, once I get the hole opened up. JMHO HH Randy
As for the TID on my X-Terra.....I use it to help determine what is in the hole. Not so much to decide whether to dig or not. But to let me know what it is I should be looking for, once I get the hole opened up. JMHO HH Randy
Digger,
You hit it on the head when you said "what you expect is in the hole" Not a guaranty of what's in the hole. Maybe we all just like to look at something while detecting? I like to look at the display. It mesmerizes me. But I would trade all those numbers for the Playboy channel on the screen if it was available!
You hit it on the head when you said "what you expect is in the hole" Not a guaranty of what's in the hole. Maybe we all just like to look at something while detecting? I like to look at the display. It mesmerizes me. But I would trade all those numbers for the Playboy channel on the screen if it was available!
How important are ID segments? Not very important at all but it can be useful for a best guess along with other indicators a detector may provide to the user.
For instance, if someone is mainly a jewelry hunter at a beach, he might want to ignore the upper conductivity range in hopes on cutting down how many targets to dig.
For a coin hunter who is mostly looking for mercs, silver quarters and such, foil and iron can be ignored and maybe part of the pulltab range if gold coins and some of the older smaller coins are not to be expected to be found.
Now for relic hunting, the general rule is dig everything above iron ( if large iron items are expected to be junk).
The big problem we all face however is the amount of time we have out detecting so if the ID is used wisely, it can cut down on how many junk items are dug.
Others have alluded to the fact that soil conditions, target corrosion, depth and a good item mixed in with trash items can cause the ID to read off.
The user must decide about these factors and what the risks are in advance and how he is willing to take the chance of missing a good find.
IMO, it is better to listen to tones and meter rather than use notch if there is a category I want to ignore.
How important is ID? Still not very important but notice that most use detectors that have meters and maybe tones too.......otherwise we would all be using a single tone, meterless detector and set the disc to knock out small nails
.
For instance, if someone is mainly a jewelry hunter at a beach, he might want to ignore the upper conductivity range in hopes on cutting down how many targets to dig.
For a coin hunter who is mostly looking for mercs, silver quarters and such, foil and iron can be ignored and maybe part of the pulltab range if gold coins and some of the older smaller coins are not to be expected to be found.
Now for relic hunting, the general rule is dig everything above iron ( if large iron items are expected to be junk).
The big problem we all face however is the amount of time we have out detecting so if the ID is used wisely, it can cut down on how many junk items are dug.
Others have alluded to the fact that soil conditions, target corrosion, depth and a good item mixed in with trash items can cause the ID to read off.
The user must decide about these factors and what the risks are in advance and how he is willing to take the chance of missing a good find.
IMO, it is better to listen to tones and meter rather than use notch if there is a category I want to ignore.
How important is ID? Still not very important but notice that most use detectors that have meters and maybe tones too.......otherwise we would all be using a single tone, meterless detector and set the disc to knock out small nails
.BarnacleBill
New member
That statement Steve is something I continue to marvel at. Buy a $1K machine and then set it up to run like a Compadre. I try to be circumspect about it, but I consistently hear users say that they set these detectors up to just reject iron, listen to the audio, and ignore the meter. Now with an X70, you can turn it into a beep/dig with incredible depth by just going into Prospecting Mode, set the Iron Mask, and away you go. No ID meter to be distracted by, Compadre Mode.
HH
BarnacleBill
HH
BarnacleBill
You know what Bill, I do just that once I've confirmed I'm in an area where there are relics to be found. I just recently added the 10.5 MF coil, so next time I'm in an area where I've confirmed there is stuff to be found (useful part of starting the hunt with tone ID, in AM, and watching the meter for a good signal) I'll try switching over to prospecting mode and digging everything. With any luck I'll dig a few goodies that are on my relic hunting wish list.
Canewrap, I wish I could do that here. The problem is there is iron trash everywhere I detect.
Back to the ID subject, a field I am detecting in has not only iron in the form of nails but a multitude of small to large iron junk pieces.
Also there is buckshot and small bits of lead around so when I tire of digging that stuff, I use the tone/meter reading and along with the sizing up/ depth reading to ignore the very small lead.
To each his own but I won't be going back to a single tone non-metered detector for most of my detecting.
An ultra lightweight unit of this category is good for searching large areas without much trash.
I understand the limitations of ID but I make use of it to sort thru the signals for a better chance at a good recovery.
Those who use use single tone detectors thumb the disc control to accomplish the same thing.
About the use of prospecting mode, it might be helpful in deciding which signals to go for to toggle between prospecting and AM mode.
Every site I go to, I evaluate it by how the detector is reacting, ground conditions, and the good finds/trash I dig then determine how I will make use of ID.
Back to the ID subject, a field I am detecting in has not only iron in the form of nails but a multitude of small to large iron junk pieces.
Also there is buckshot and small bits of lead around so when I tire of digging that stuff, I use the tone/meter reading and along with the sizing up/ depth reading to ignore the very small lead.
To each his own but I won't be going back to a single tone non-metered detector for most of my detecting.
An ultra lightweight unit of this category is good for searching large areas without much trash.
I understand the limitations of ID but I make use of it to sort thru the signals for a better chance at a good recovery.
Those who use use single tone detectors thumb the disc control to accomplish the same thing.
About the use of prospecting mode, it might be helpful in deciding which signals to go for to toggle between prospecting and AM mode.
Every site I go to, I evaluate it by how the detector is reacting, ground conditions, and the good finds/trash I dig then determine how I will make use of ID.
Quote "Buy a $1K machine and then set it up to run like a Compadre." Wow, what a statement.and a very good one.
Baffles me too. I use evey aspect of my $1,000.00 machine for enhancing my pleasure while detecting. Discrimination is a wonderful thing that George Payne came up with.
I suspect that many who use all metal did not experience the 1970, and early 80's detectors. I have dug more than my share of pull-tabs, and foil.
Baffles me too. I use evey aspect of my $1,000.00 machine for enhancing my pleasure while detecting. Discrimination is a wonderful thing that George Payne came up with.
I suspect that many who use all metal did not experience the 1970, and early 80's detectors. I have dug more than my share of pull-tabs, and foil.
I'll admit I forgot to mention that I have toggled between the two to get an idea of how deep the target is when I'm looking for deep targets, because the arrows system doesn't work all that well on my unit. And, yeah when you have a ton of iron all bets are off on any seemingly foolproof method.
I read everything and this is one of the most interesting threads for a while. Yes I hear you all about more TID segments may cause more jumping around between the numbers and going by tone is just as important as TID, etc.
1) I own an X-70 which has 28 segments but I have never used a Sovereign GT with optional meter, MXT, DFX, or F-75 which all have many more TID segments. Is the many more segments on these machines of no value over the X-70 or does it make these machines more accurate at TIDing ??
2) "The E-Trac is a row/column arrangement of 1-35, 1-50 displaying conductivity & ferrous ID."
Also as compared to a X-70, generally would I dig less trash if I used an E-Trac because of these 35x50=1750 TID segments ??
(Yes I know the three disadvantages-drawbacks of the E-Trac being much slower in swing speed, heavy in weight, and about double the co$t.)
1) I own an X-70 which has 28 segments but I have never used a Sovereign GT with optional meter, MXT, DFX, or F-75 which all have many more TID segments. Is the many more segments on these machines of no value over the X-70 or does it make these machines more accurate at TIDing ??
2) "The E-Trac is a row/column arrangement of 1-35, 1-50 displaying conductivity & ferrous ID."
Also as compared to a X-70, generally would I dig less trash if I used an E-Trac because of these 35x50=1750 TID segments ??
(Yes I know the three disadvantages-drawbacks of the E-Trac being much slower in swing speed, heavy in weight, and about double the co$t.)
BarnacleBill
New member
You see those pictures of used detectors with all the silk screened numbers worn off around the Disc knob. 
A telltale sign just like those footprints of SasQuatch.......meanwhile somewhere in Northern Michigan, the JackPine Savage stalks treasure.
[attachment 119995 Sasq.gif]
HH
BarnacleBill
A telltale sign just like those footprints of SasQuatch.......meanwhile somewhere in Northern Michigan, the JackPine Savage stalks treasure. [attachment 119995 Sasq.gif]
HH
BarnacleBill
Many of you are reiterating the very reasons I consider the X-Terra 70 to be one of the best (if not THE best) detector value available today. It allows the user to hunt with whatever amount of "refinement" that the person choses. As someone who "cut their teeth" on the early BFO's and TR detectors, I am of the opinion that the X-70 is the cat's meow! The non-metered BFO's would beep when you passed over just about everything. The metered BFO's were an improvement as they would tell us if it were mineral or metal. When I got my hands on my first TR with discrimination, I was in hog heaven! You could fill your pouch with coins just about every outing. Unfortunately, most of those coins were half as deep as we can detect today. In the mid-70's, along came the VLF/TRs that gave us more "non-discriminating" depth in the VLF mode. And by using "reverse discrimination" we could rescan the target in an attempt to give us some idea of whether to dig or not. More of a signal strength meter than anything else. So if a target was detected in the VLF mode, when you switched to TR to confirm it, you dug those that didn't register "bad". If the depth was beyond the TR mode, you dug it hoping it was good! And then we had analog TID meters. And I still have a trusty XLPro. I learn more about a target using that analog meter than I can with any digital meter. (?old dog - new tricks?) But no matter how good the meter is, my XLPro only offers variable discrimination, one tone and it requires a fairly fast sweep speed. (aftermarket four tone audio enhancements are now becoming available)
the beauty of the X-Terra 70......
As someone who likes to hunt for old coins at old sites, the X-70 allows me to set my detector as I chose. I can set any Pattern to accept or reject any of the 28 target notches available. I can dig everything or reject target notches that I don't want to hear. I can set the audio response to be a single tone, dual tone, tri-tone, quad-tone or multiple tone. I can run with whatever degree of threshold sound I want. Or I could (I don't) run in silent search mode. I can adjust my sensitivity to allow for the coil and the soil. I can run in fixed GB or with a couple different tracking options. I can run with a low frequency coil, one of several mid frequency coils or one of the higher frequency coils. I can use DD coils for the higher mineralized sites and concentrics for moderate ground. Noise Cancel and the inherit characteristics of VFLEX allows me to minimize the effects of RFI or other ambient interference. My performance is not limited by sweep speeds. I can use the Pinpoint mode for narrowing down the "dig here" location and for determining target depth. Or I can switch to Prospecting mode to size up the target AND determine the precise target location. All of this PLUS a darn accurate target ID display that will tell you so much more than the target's conductivity, if you learn what to look (and listen) for.
Personally, I hunt in the C/T All Metal mode, slight threshold, with multiple tones. I prefer to set my GB using Auto GB. Then set it a couple numbers toward the positive phase. (lower number) This can cause the detector to be a bit more noisy at times. Especially if you are hunting a site that does not allow you to keep your coil parallel to the surface. Or if you are sweeping in rough ground or vegetation. But running in those areas with it HOT is the reason I like this capability as I can keep my coil an inch or so off the ground and still maximize my depth of detection. Living in an area with moderate mineralization, I find the concentrics offer me the most depth. As a coinshooter who loves the old silver, I prefer the 3 kHz coil for the sites I hunt. It may not go any deeper than the other 9-inch coils. But as I've said many times, the 3 kHz coil provides a very distinct audio response on deeply buried iron. At old homesteads and farmsites, this allows me to "skip" over most of the scrap iron. If I get into a site that has multiple adjacent targets (as in 6 or more per sweep), I use the 6-inch DD coil at 18.75 kHz. I like the lower frequency better for where I hunt. But (in my opinion) the 6-inch DD separates better than the 6-inch concentric. Therefore, until they come out with a small DD coil at 3 kHz, I'll put up with digging more aluminum than I would likely dig, using a lower frequency coil.
I can hunt with just about any detector out there. And frankly, I have. But the flexible functionality offered by the X-70 raises the bar for future generations of detectors. I've chosen (and mentioned) those that work for me. And appreciate all of them. Yours may differ. But again, the beauty of the X-70 is that we have a multitude of choices for "refining" it to our sites and styles. JMHO HH Randy
the beauty of the X-Terra 70......
As someone who likes to hunt for old coins at old sites, the X-70 allows me to set my detector as I chose. I can set any Pattern to accept or reject any of the 28 target notches available. I can dig everything or reject target notches that I don't want to hear. I can set the audio response to be a single tone, dual tone, tri-tone, quad-tone or multiple tone. I can run with whatever degree of threshold sound I want. Or I could (I don't) run in silent search mode. I can adjust my sensitivity to allow for the coil and the soil. I can run in fixed GB or with a couple different tracking options. I can run with a low frequency coil, one of several mid frequency coils or one of the higher frequency coils. I can use DD coils for the higher mineralized sites and concentrics for moderate ground. Noise Cancel and the inherit characteristics of VFLEX allows me to minimize the effects of RFI or other ambient interference. My performance is not limited by sweep speeds. I can use the Pinpoint mode for narrowing down the "dig here" location and for determining target depth. Or I can switch to Prospecting mode to size up the target AND determine the precise target location. All of this PLUS a darn accurate target ID display that will tell you so much more than the target's conductivity, if you learn what to look (and listen) for.
Personally, I hunt in the C/T All Metal mode, slight threshold, with multiple tones. I prefer to set my GB using Auto GB. Then set it a couple numbers toward the positive phase. (lower number) This can cause the detector to be a bit more noisy at times. Especially if you are hunting a site that does not allow you to keep your coil parallel to the surface. Or if you are sweeping in rough ground or vegetation. But running in those areas with it HOT is the reason I like this capability as I can keep my coil an inch or so off the ground and still maximize my depth of detection. Living in an area with moderate mineralization, I find the concentrics offer me the most depth. As a coinshooter who loves the old silver, I prefer the 3 kHz coil for the sites I hunt. It may not go any deeper than the other 9-inch coils. But as I've said many times, the 3 kHz coil provides a very distinct audio response on deeply buried iron. At old homesteads and farmsites, this allows me to "skip" over most of the scrap iron. If I get into a site that has multiple adjacent targets (as in 6 or more per sweep), I use the 6-inch DD coil at 18.75 kHz. I like the lower frequency better for where I hunt. But (in my opinion) the 6-inch DD separates better than the 6-inch concentric. Therefore, until they come out with a small DD coil at 3 kHz, I'll put up with digging more aluminum than I would likely dig, using a lower frequency coil.
I can hunt with just about any detector out there. And frankly, I have. But the flexible functionality offered by the X-70 raises the bar for future generations of detectors. I've chosen (and mentioned) those that work for me. And appreciate all of them. Yours may differ. But again, the beauty of the X-70 is that we have a multitude of choices for "refining" it to our sites and styles. JMHO HH Randy
Many are of the belief that the Explorer (or eTrac) provides two readings, based on the target's actual conductivity and ferrous content. Just as many folks believe that the X-Terra bases it's TID numbers on a specific level of conductivity. I know I did for a long time. The best explanation that I have found was in Andy Sabisch's new book "The Minelab Explorer and E-Trac Handbook. On page 13 Mr. Sabisch goes into great detail explaining what the two numbers being displayed actually represent. In a nutshell..... "there is no true metallurgical analysis being performed on each target that the detector sees despite what the terminology infers. The FE and CO values are simply coordinates on a graph assigned arbitrarily by the software developed by Minelab engineers, which is processing the signals coming back from the coil." According to one of Minelab's engineers, "they are simply relative values that provide consistency when similar targets are passed under the coil in the air and as much as possible, buried in the ground. They are not a true measurement of a specific electrical property or parameter. Furthermore, the design of the software was such that the indicated values should not blend between one another, i.e. changes in the portion of the signal designated as "conductivity" should affect only the CO value and not the FE value and vice versa. In fact, this was our problem (with the numbers on the Explorer (with the S-shaped) curve there was some mixing between these variables) and users saw this by the way the cursor moved around on some buried targets."
What does this mean???? It means that numbers are just that......numbers. And, they do not represent the actual measurement of the conductivity or ferrous content of the target. The software is simply processing a signal and mapping it to a predefined value. On the E-Trac, it is two values commonly referred to as CO and FE. On the X-Terra, it is one number that we commonly refer to as the conductivity reading. The fact that the values differ between detectors (whether it be between the E-Trac and the Explorer, or the X-30, X-50 and X-70) simply confirms that the algoritm is different. Whether we call it conductive or simply place it as a value of "X", doesn't really matter. What is important is to identify targets consistently, based on the values applied.
HH Randy
What does this mean???? It means that numbers are just that......numbers. And, they do not represent the actual measurement of the conductivity or ferrous content of the target. The software is simply processing a signal and mapping it to a predefined value. On the E-Trac, it is two values commonly referred to as CO and FE. On the X-Terra, it is one number that we commonly refer to as the conductivity reading. The fact that the values differ between detectors (whether it be between the E-Trac and the Explorer, or the X-30, X-50 and X-70) simply confirms that the algoritm is different. Whether we call it conductive or simply place it as a value of "X", doesn't really matter. What is important is to identify targets consistently, based on the values applied.
HH Randy
Shenandoah Digger
New member
I thought I knew about everything involving the Xterra 70. Found out I didn't.