Monte, thanks for those very informative posts as I HAVE learned alot from you. I appreciate the extra effort to help me and others out. I have actually learned tons from you! Go with the best units for the areas you hunt(yes a MXT is top but a person could look for an older Lobo, run a Tiger Shark or Excalibur II, Compadre, Musky, E-Trac, or a Whites with Bill's mods, CZ, an F75, etc.), go with what you know to be succe$$ful with all your knowledge. But more importantly with the non-monetary benifit benifit of healthy excercise and the outdoors, the outing and fellowship, the adventure, exploring, collecting, looking forward to things and visualizing, making things happen, the hunt, the lows and highs, the satisfaction, learning, memories, keeps our mind active and stories a person cannot put a price on in this pastime-hobby that is our lifestyle, is THE best thing! Along with camping-RVing along the way seeing the beautiful country, new places and things, and meeting people...
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HOT vs non-HOT and behavior around iron
- Thread starter tvr
- Start date
downeaster
New member
Exactly David! The whole idea, for me, is to have fun, an aspect that's often overlooked. I have been metal detecting since 1971 and the best things I have found are the people I've met and the memories. Priceless! The advice I would give to anyone is: find a detector YOU like, learn to use it really well. and have FUN!!
Steve
Steve
Neil's question "do you think theres a cost involved with better iron discriminators, do you think they mask more?"
Opinion, I doubt that cost by it self drives better iron (particularly larger iron) discrimination characteristics. I suspect it is a combination of trade-offs in the circuit and software designs.
With respect to masking, a few months back I did a little experimenting by discriminating out a tab on the surface and seeing if I could hit a dime that was three inches deep and off-set to the side of the tab.
The ability to see the dime was dependent on coil size, which side of the target was approached (dime or tab side first), the sweep speed and detector recovery or re-tune speed. Smaller coil, slower sweep, approach from dime side first and the faster recover speeds all improved ability to detect the dime.
My CZ's, if I approached the target from the dime side with a small coil I might get a slight sound then nothing on any subsequent sweep until I slowed to barely moving the coil with the dime at a 6 inch offset. I could hear the dime when sweeping across the dime first but not the other direction with a very slow, barely moving, sweep. When I moved the tab a foot or more away I could start picking up the dime at a more normal but still relaxed sweep speed.
With the Tejon I could clearly get the dime when coming from the dime side but not on the return sweep (one way response) with a normal sweep and the dime 6 inches from the tab. Slow down, could get two way response and with smaller coil could get closer. With the 12 x 10 coil, 6 inches separation with a slow sweep was as good as I could get. I could get the tab down to about 3 inches off set from the dime and hit the dime consistently with the 5.75 concentric sweeping at a fairly slow rate.
Haven't tried setting up masking tests with the other detectors.
I've made it a practice to walk around the target and slow way down if I get a one-way response or had a sharp hit that went away.
tvr
Opinion, I doubt that cost by it self drives better iron (particularly larger iron) discrimination characteristics. I suspect it is a combination of trade-offs in the circuit and software designs.
With respect to masking, a few months back I did a little experimenting by discriminating out a tab on the surface and seeing if I could hit a dime that was three inches deep and off-set to the side of the tab.
The ability to see the dime was dependent on coil size, which side of the target was approached (dime or tab side first), the sweep speed and detector recovery or re-tune speed. Smaller coil, slower sweep, approach from dime side first and the faster recover speeds all improved ability to detect the dime.
My CZ's, if I approached the target from the dime side with a small coil I might get a slight sound then nothing on any subsequent sweep until I slowed to barely moving the coil with the dime at a 6 inch offset. I could hear the dime when sweeping across the dime first but not the other direction with a very slow, barely moving, sweep. When I moved the tab a foot or more away I could start picking up the dime at a more normal but still relaxed sweep speed.
With the Tejon I could clearly get the dime when coming from the dime side but not on the return sweep (one way response) with a normal sweep and the dime 6 inches from the tab. Slow down, could get two way response and with smaller coil could get closer. With the 12 x 10 coil, 6 inches separation with a slow sweep was as good as I could get. I could get the tab down to about 3 inches off set from the dime and hit the dime consistently with the 5.75 concentric sweeping at a fairly slow rate.
Haven't tried setting up masking tests with the other detectors.
I've made it a practice to walk around the target and slow way down if I get a one-way response or had a sharp hit that went away.
tvr
Neil
Well-known member
tvr said:
tvr what I mean by cost is the masking, asking does a discriminator that knocks out iron completely(ie compadre) suffer more from masking versus one that doesnt(ie cibola). Monte brought up the thing about high gain versus lower gain circuits which makes sens. youve also brought up a good couple of points with coils and recovery speed, those are the two I think of when I think of masking.
any idea what the other lower gain circuit tesoros there are besides the compadre, would they be the ones without the red zone past the number 10 on the sens dial?
Neil
Hi Neil
You asked " any idea what other lower gain circuit Tesoros there are besides the compadre, would they be the ones without the red zone past the number 10 on the sens dial? " Yes, but they are no longer being made by Tesoro. A couple come to mind: the original Bandido, Bandido ll, Pantera, and Silver Saber ll. They are ED 120 disc. circuit, with adjustable GB, except for the Silver Sabre, it has no GB. These older machines are great iron handlers,not bragging but I have the first three machines, B1, B11, and Pantera, that will get the job done, I don't have the Silver Sabre ll though. Have a good'n........Hombre
You asked " any idea what other lower gain circuit Tesoros there are besides the compadre, would they be the ones without the red zone past the number 10 on the sens dial? " Yes, but they are no longer being made by Tesoro. A couple come to mind: the original Bandido, Bandido ll, Pantera, and Silver Saber ll. They are ED 120 disc. circuit, with adjustable GB, except for the Silver Sabre, it has no GB. These older machines are great iron handlers,not bragging but I have the first three machines, B1, B11, and Pantera, that will get the job done, I don't have the Silver Sabre ll though. Have a good'n........Hombre
Neil and all,
Sorry I miss-read the cost reference.
Between rain showers this evening I took the Compadre and a quarter out to that iron anchor in the picture in the first post. Keep in mind I have a 9 x 8 coil on this Compadre. With the quarter flat on the ground the top of the anchor is about 3/4 inch above the quarter.
Discriminating out the anchor, I had to get the quarter 7 inches away from the anchor to see it at normal sweep speed with the iron and quarter side by side sweeping over both on the same sweep. Would hit on the approach to the quarter but not on the return sweep. At 10 inches I got the quarter in both directions.
I could only get it 5 inches from the anchor and see it at all with the Compadre moving very very slowly and approaching the quarter side first.
If I turned 90 degrees so that as I approach the targets, I swing across the quarter and have to move forward to get to the iron anchor, I clearly uncover the quarter until the COIL is about 3 inches from the iron and then the quarter disappears. If the quarter is 3 inches from the iron and the front of the coil is just approaching the quarter, I get a beep The coil needs to hit the quarter but not be too near the iron. If the quarter is any where under the coil, up to about 10 inches from the iron anchor but the coil is 3 inches or less from the iron anchor, the detector masks the quarter with the iron and there is not a whimper from the detector.
It looks like maybe the coil field reaches out further along the side than it does on the front edge of the 9 x 8 coil to cause the 5 inch vs 3 inch masking distance.
Seems like it makes the case for a lot of over lapping sweeps, small coils and working very slowly where there is trash in the ground.
tvr
Sorry I miss-read the cost reference.
Between rain showers this evening I took the Compadre and a quarter out to that iron anchor in the picture in the first post. Keep in mind I have a 9 x 8 coil on this Compadre. With the quarter flat on the ground the top of the anchor is about 3/4 inch above the quarter.
Discriminating out the anchor, I had to get the quarter 7 inches away from the anchor to see it at normal sweep speed with the iron and quarter side by side sweeping over both on the same sweep. Would hit on the approach to the quarter but not on the return sweep. At 10 inches I got the quarter in both directions.
I could only get it 5 inches from the anchor and see it at all with the Compadre moving very very slowly and approaching the quarter side first.
If I turned 90 degrees so that as I approach the targets, I swing across the quarter and have to move forward to get to the iron anchor, I clearly uncover the quarter until the COIL is about 3 inches from the iron and then the quarter disappears. If the quarter is 3 inches from the iron and the front of the coil is just approaching the quarter, I get a beep The coil needs to hit the quarter but not be too near the iron. If the quarter is any where under the coil, up to about 10 inches from the iron anchor but the coil is 3 inches or less from the iron anchor, the detector masks the quarter with the iron and there is not a whimper from the detector.
It looks like maybe the coil field reaches out further along the side than it does on the front edge of the 9 x 8 coil to cause the 5 inch vs 3 inch masking distance.
Seems like it makes the case for a lot of over lapping sweeps, small coils and working very slowly where there is trash in the ground.
tvr
fowlercharles
Member
Monte, I have put the question out there a couple of times about the chance of there being 2 different versions of the Compadre."Newer Compadres" and "older Compadres", one with low noise/ high gain, one without.(like the Amigo 2) Seems I have seen conflicting statements even in Compadre ads. Also, on the Mod Forum the discussion was had about the circuit boards being different and the threshold pots being in different locations on the older and newer ones.What is that all about? Sure triggered my thoughts on the matter. Maybe this old guy is just not getting it but something ain't smoothing out like I think it should. I think it will be a real "Hoot" if someone, (ANYONE WILL DO) could wiggle the system and come out now with that new version of the 1650 we all would surely enjoy.I know it would take some doing, but it sure makes you think the T folks could probabaly do it,easier than anyone. More to wonder on is why they don't. I believe it will happen one day. There ain't a whole lot of other stuff going on, and what is, is to pricey to keep the hobby enjoyable for most of us.