doc holiday232
New member
It's NOT the Deus or Nox videos that turn people off---it's HOW they are presented. Think on this.
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calabash said:..To be fair KYJOE that was a dime and a ring which are not the toughest targets to hit.
That thin ring weighed less than a gram, pretty darn small. Even at 14kHz I spend a lot of time digging targets at depth 1/3 that size.
Coming from a very humble/neutral place it seems this whole debate hinges on whether you believe Multi-IQ is better than single frequency. What can I say, I don't own a Nox. I'm still on the fence on this subject. From what I see some other machines equal or beat the Nox in niche areas.
The argument that I would have to hunt my site 3 times in 3 different frequencies with my Deus to equal hunting it once with the Nox may not hold water with me on my sites. At 14khz I dig the smallest shards of lead up to deep silver. I place the most value on target separation and ability to handle iron. Again, I don't have a Nox in hand that's why I'm still neutral.
Here's my quick impromptu video again, look how small that ring is! https://youtu.be/GKkw3O2-iVE
Definition of obsolete (No longer usefull) The Nox hasn't made all VLF's obsolete. We might need to find a more accurate word. For me I think the Nox will definitely have a place in my arsenal.
C
calabash digger
Guest
True ring is small.. Not to get in a debate but did you see the video I posted at the post above with my buddy cross checking targets. If you think you have a site cleaned out in just running 14 kh you might get a big surprise. I will wait till you get your Nox and see if you are impressed then...BTW I know the hf coil will hit small stuff in 14 kh it will also hit small stuff in 28kh and 54 kh that 14 kh will not see...
KyJoe said:..To be fair KYJOE that was a dime and a ring which are not the toughest targets to hit.
That thin ring weighed less than a gram, pretty darn small. Even at 14kHz I spend a lot of time digging targets at depth 1/3 that size.
Coming from a very humble/neutral place it seems this whole debate hinges on whether you believe Multi-IQ is better than single frequency. What can I say, I don't own a Nox. I'm still on the fence on this subject. From what I see some other machines equal or beat the Nox in niche areas.
The argument that I would have to hunt my site 3 times in 3 different frequencies with my Deus to equal hunting it once with the Nox may not hold water with me on my sites. At 14khz I dig the smallest shards of lead up to deep silver. I place the most value on target separation and ability to handle iron. Again, I don't have a Nox in hand that's why I'm still neutral.
Here's my quick impromptu video again, look how small that ring is! https://youtu.be/GKkw3O2-iVE
Definition of obsolete (No longer usefull) The Nox hasn't made all VLF's obsolete. We might need to find a more accurate word. For me I think the Nox will definitely have a place in my arsenal.
C
calabash digger
Guest
I'm not walking on egg shells to please folks. I have a lot of people who like my videos. I spend a lot of time and money doing this stuff. Can I be wrong yes I'm human. Can I get it right sometimes ? yes every now and then ...
doc holiday232 said:It's NOT the Deus or Nox videos that turn people off---it's HOW they are presented. Think on this.[/q
from Dictionary.com:
adjective
1.
no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
an obsolete expression.
2.
of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
an obsolete battleship.
3.
(of a linguistic form) no longer in use, especially, out of use for at least the past century.
Compare archaic.
4.
effaced by wearing down or away.
5.
Biology. imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in other individuals, as of the opposite sex or of a related species.
verb (used with object), obsoleted, obsoleting.
6.
to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:
Note: there's a very big difference between "no longer useful" and "out of date" or "replaced with something newer or better".
A horse is still useful as a means of transportation (It still works). But it's been replaced with something newer or better....in general use, you probably drive a car or truck instead.
adjective
1.
no longer in general use; fallen into disuse:
an obsolete expression.
2.
of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date:
an obsolete battleship.
3.
(of a linguistic form) no longer in use, especially, out of use for at least the past century.
Compare archaic.
4.
effaced by wearing down or away.
5.
Biology. imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in other individuals, as of the opposite sex or of a related species.
verb (used with object), obsoleted, obsoleting.
6.
to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate:
Note: there's a very big difference between "no longer useful" and "out of date" or "replaced with something newer or better".
A horse is still useful as a means of transportation (It still works). But it's been replaced with something newer or better....in general use, you probably drive a car or truck instead.
I have read these posts with great interest on the Minelab Equinox Series. I have been behind a detector handle for 40 years. I hunt what I consider to be some of the toughest conditions known to a metal detector. A saltwater beach, in the surf line with an extremely heavy blanket of black sand, massive amounts of minute pieces of copper from old shipwreck hulls along with ladies bobby pins and a truck load of can slaw. Put on top of that, 100’s of nearby cell phones from beach goers, local hotel WiFi signals and the east coast defense radar systems, What more could you want to make the day easy?
But to the point, I have used since inception Fishers CZ systems and the early Minelab Multi Frequency units. What I have found to be true over many years of testing is that you can only put so much in so called air tests and test beds unless they have been established for years. There are many factors involved with a target in the ground when a detector sees it.
I look at a detector as a pair of eye glasses. Many Detectors see halo effects in very different ways and report the results that don’t always match rhyme or reason but leaves us guessing as to what it actually is. Thus the detector only becomes another tool in the tool box. Each one has its own character which I think we can all agree on.
I have found consistently for over many years 100 plus gold rings a season in the above conditions, by luck? Maybe... But I think mostly what I had at the end of my hand was the real reason. Notice I did not say what I have used, because different conditions dictate what will work on a given day. Pulse, multi or single frequency decided by again conditions.
I greatly appreciate all whom take the time to make the videos and report to us their opinions, to all whom post their comments because it becomes a wealth of knowledge for us to use as we as individuals see fit to suit our specific needs. But I would like to see more of a concerted effort of actual in field testing and specific dialogue as you recover those targets and what is actually going through your mind at the time. Such as what do you believe the target to be and why are you leaning towards that along with exactly what are your soil condition.
And remember your detector is actually an extension of your mind....and how well versed you are with it...
But to the point, I have used since inception Fishers CZ systems and the early Minelab Multi Frequency units. What I have found to be true over many years of testing is that you can only put so much in so called air tests and test beds unless they have been established for years. There are many factors involved with a target in the ground when a detector sees it.
I look at a detector as a pair of eye glasses. Many Detectors see halo effects in very different ways and report the results that don’t always match rhyme or reason but leaves us guessing as to what it actually is. Thus the detector only becomes another tool in the tool box. Each one has its own character which I think we can all agree on.
I have found consistently for over many years 100 plus gold rings a season in the above conditions, by luck? Maybe... But I think mostly what I had at the end of my hand was the real reason. Notice I did not say what I have used, because different conditions dictate what will work on a given day. Pulse, multi or single frequency decided by again conditions.
I greatly appreciate all whom take the time to make the videos and report to us their opinions, to all whom post their comments because it becomes a wealth of knowledge for us to use as we as individuals see fit to suit our specific needs. But I would like to see more of a concerted effort of actual in field testing and specific dialogue as you recover those targets and what is actually going through your mind at the time. Such as what do you believe the target to be and why are you leaning towards that along with exactly what are your soil condition.
And remember your detector is actually an extension of your mind....and how well versed you are with it...
Calabash said:BTW I know the hf coil will hit small stuff in 14 kh it will also hit small stuff in 28kh and 54 kh that 14 kh will not see...
I experimented with some small gold when I first got the 9" HF. Something the size of a grain of rice was better at 54kHz. Small jewelry, smaller than the ring I posted did great at 28 and even 14. In my soil (which is how we should start every conversation) which is very low mineralization I'm digging targets so small at 14kHz at depth I rarely use 28kHz. Running 54 at my sites wouldn't be productive, your soil may require it, I don't know. For me, I don't want to see the smallest slivers of metal that sometimes are hard to even locate with your pinpointer.
C
calabash digger
Guest
One point your missing though is 54 kh will unmask some targets in iron better than 14 kh and vice versa. I hunt thick as you know so I'm trying to clean it out. Can I find buttons in iron with 54 kh that 14 cant see? yes and vice versa.... that where the Nox comes in ...running the multi freqs. Let me know how your test go with the Nox.
Calabash said:One point your missing though is 54 kh will unmask some targets in iron better than 14 kh and vice versa.
The unmasking ability of 54kHz has not been my experience. The elevated nail video I posted was in 14kHz, the results were less at 28 and 54. I like 14kHz the best in my soil.
I hate it I'm so slow to jump on the multi frequency bandwagon but I've been here before with the Explorer and CTX. They were not better for my sites. I know the Nox goes about multi frequency differently than the CTX. I like most of what I hear and see with the Nox but I see a couple of things I don't like.
I hate it if I come off argumentative, I don't mean to be, just relaying my experiences. Might be like 2 people watching the same movie, one likes it the other thinks it wasn't entertaining at all. lol
MiTreasureHunter
New member
Get in the water and run it submerged for multiple hours, several days. I want to know Durabilty, the thing is not going be worth anything to me if it don't stand up to years of water use.
Side note, if the NOX is God's gift to metal detecting why are people wasting precious time making "test" videos and hanging out in forums bragging how great it is instead of going out and finding all the missed treasure that only the NOX can find and every other detector ever built has missed (heavy sarcasm)
Side note, if the NOX is God's gift to metal detecting why are people wasting precious time making "test" videos and hanging out in forums bragging how great it is instead of going out and finding all the missed treasure that only the NOX can find and every other detector ever built has missed (heavy sarcasm)
C
calabash digger
Guest
That's funny , people always like to say stuff like that . I'm not only a tester I'm also a avid relic hunter so no my yard is not the only place I hang out. This is the nox on a beat up civil war site.. check the cool civil war video out in the video that I pulled from where others beat.. [video]https://youtu.be/k0Cp-K1nsWU[/video]
C
calabash digger
Guest
heres another one from a beat up colonial plantation... check the silvers and buttons out...[video]https://youtu.be/9kH4o_BhHP8[/video]
It certainly is a very interesting machine,but has it made 'ALL' single freq VLF machines obsolete,then my reply would be 'no',the biggest advantage of course with this new machine is the ability of using either single freqs or all of them together,and of course the benefits are in say wet sand environments and also high mineral contents and a few others......but of course some down sides as well and they may in the future address these problems and that is the availability of using other size coils,especially on the permissions and targets that i mainly hunt after.
On say some of my really trashy roman/saxon sites then its all about coil size here,getting in between the targets requires a very small coil,this is when i would use say my T2 with the 5'' coil and also for getting into tight places and during harvest time the crops come off,has this detector made by T2 obsolete ?? No !!
Another scenario is for pure depth on say open pasture or deep ploughed and rolled when i am looking for raw depth and here i am not on about 10'' on say a dime but much deeper on the more desirable targets,its situations like this when you need a VLF machine that has more 'oomph' and both Nexus MP and SE that i use both being single freq machines,but the freq can be changed by changing coils,certainly have that 'oomph' due mainly of the ability of increasing the voltage into the coil like the Nautilus machines can do,but the Nexus provides even more power to the coil than what the Nauty can.Once again has this new machine made my single freq machines absolute ?? once again the answer is 'NO'.
As a general all round detector then i would say that it is about at the pinnacle of what current detectors are,but i certainly would not say that they have made 'all' single freq machines obsolete,CB your YT videos make good watching and informative,as you hunt mainly CW type of sites for buttons and those types of targets then the new Minelab offering suits your type of detecting and gives you the type of depth that you are happy with.But on some of my pasture sites and for my types of detecting for deep artifacts and hoard hunting then the Equinox certainly is never going too be a game changer for me.
Will i be buying a Equinox ?? my answer is a resounding NO,not for me,please note i am not knocking this machine or anything like that,all i am saying is that it certainly wont obsolete everything that i own,i use what works for me,those folks who do buy them or are looking at getting one i wish them good luck.
On say some of my really trashy roman/saxon sites then its all about coil size here,getting in between the targets requires a very small coil,this is when i would use say my T2 with the 5'' coil and also for getting into tight places and during harvest time the crops come off,has this detector made by T2 obsolete ?? No !!
Another scenario is for pure depth on say open pasture or deep ploughed and rolled when i am looking for raw depth and here i am not on about 10'' on say a dime but much deeper on the more desirable targets,its situations like this when you need a VLF machine that has more 'oomph' and both Nexus MP and SE that i use both being single freq machines,but the freq can be changed by changing coils,certainly have that 'oomph' due mainly of the ability of increasing the voltage into the coil like the Nautilus machines can do,but the Nexus provides even more power to the coil than what the Nauty can.Once again has this new machine made my single freq machines absolute ?? once again the answer is 'NO'.
As a general all round detector then i would say that it is about at the pinnacle of what current detectors are,but i certainly would not say that they have made 'all' single freq machines obsolete,CB your YT videos make good watching and informative,as you hunt mainly CW type of sites for buttons and those types of targets then the new Minelab offering suits your type of detecting and gives you the type of depth that you are happy with.But on some of my pasture sites and for my types of detecting for deep artifacts and hoard hunting then the Equinox certainly is never going too be a game changer for me.
Will i be buying a Equinox ?? my answer is a resounding NO,not for me,please note i am not knocking this machine or anything like that,all i am saying is that it certainly wont obsolete everything that i own,i use what works for me,those folks who do buy them or are looking at getting one i wish them good luck.
Multi frequency detectors date back to the Minelab FBS system and the Fisher CZ. They have clear advantages over single frequency detectors for most environments and clear superiority in their ability to cope with wet salt at usable high sensitivity settings. Up to now they have failed to “make all single frequency detectors obselete” for a couple of reasons.
Slow processors - until the Nox, no multifreaker has had a truly fact processor. This has limited their usefulness in trashy environments.
Heavyweight and lousy ergonomics -
Weakness on small low conductors (but superior depth on high conductors in mineralization). No specialized VLF IB gold nugget detector to date uses multifrequency.
The Nox has a modern, fast processor. It is sensitive enough to small low conductors that the prospecting modes use multifrequency rather than 40kHz single frequency. Interestingly enough, I think I remember that initial reports of the earliest released models from last fall were that the prospecting mode used single freq - 20 or 40 kHz. If this is correct, the change in the software to the current configuration may have one of the things which delayed shipment. My own tests show that the 40 kHz single freq. is in fact more sensitive to tiny gold (14k bead with a diameter of about 0.1” or 2.5mm) in air testing - in the ground - who knows?
Any detector maker who expects to sell a machine at a price point above the Nox will have to offer something the Nox doesn’t. What could this be? Here are a couple of thoughts.
Ergonomic improvements. The Nox has nose heaviness with the standard coil and a poor ergonomic feature - in that a line extended from the bottom of the armrest to the middle of the handgrip - if projected to the ground - is several inches forward of the fromt edge of the coil. This induces rotation or torque around this axis when the coil is swung. resisting this rotation takes energy which is essentially wasted. There’s a reason most detectors have S-rods. Pick up a T2 or F75 and you will immediately feel the difference.
Simplification - The Nox is pretty simple - compared to the V3i, for example, but it still suffered from the issue of “am I doing this right? Is this set up correctly for the conditions?” That terrible feeling that “if I only had the optimum settings - I would find wonderful things”. A multifrequency detector which had the simplicity (control wise) of a Tesoro Compadre and which still performed excellently in high and low mineralization, salt and fresh water, would be very attractive.
Salt water “chops” - Great depth and good ferrous discrimination in seawater. The Nox manual recommends Beach 2 for actually in the water - it is a lower power mode with who knows what other adjustments to internal variables. - in some ways reminiscent of the CZ series “salt” mode. I am convinced that once a lightweight Pulse Induction detector, one with usable ferrous discrimination to full depth and a very short pulse delay (less than 10 microseconds) will revolutionize beach detecting. This machine when it arrives will sell for well over Nox prices.
For now - it’s king Nox. - but no king reigns forever.
Slow processors - until the Nox, no multifreaker has had a truly fact processor. This has limited their usefulness in trashy environments.
Heavyweight and lousy ergonomics -
Weakness on small low conductors (but superior depth on high conductors in mineralization). No specialized VLF IB gold nugget detector to date uses multifrequency.
The Nox has a modern, fast processor. It is sensitive enough to small low conductors that the prospecting modes use multifrequency rather than 40kHz single frequency. Interestingly enough, I think I remember that initial reports of the earliest released models from last fall were that the prospecting mode used single freq - 20 or 40 kHz. If this is correct, the change in the software to the current configuration may have one of the things which delayed shipment. My own tests show that the 40 kHz single freq. is in fact more sensitive to tiny gold (14k bead with a diameter of about 0.1” or 2.5mm) in air testing - in the ground - who knows?
Any detector maker who expects to sell a machine at a price point above the Nox will have to offer something the Nox doesn’t. What could this be? Here are a couple of thoughts.
Ergonomic improvements. The Nox has nose heaviness with the standard coil and a poor ergonomic feature - in that a line extended from the bottom of the armrest to the middle of the handgrip - if projected to the ground - is several inches forward of the fromt edge of the coil. This induces rotation or torque around this axis when the coil is swung. resisting this rotation takes energy which is essentially wasted. There’s a reason most detectors have S-rods. Pick up a T2 or F75 and you will immediately feel the difference.
Simplification - The Nox is pretty simple - compared to the V3i, for example, but it still suffered from the issue of “am I doing this right? Is this set up correctly for the conditions?” That terrible feeling that “if I only had the optimum settings - I would find wonderful things”. A multifrequency detector which had the simplicity (control wise) of a Tesoro Compadre and which still performed excellently in high and low mineralization, salt and fresh water, would be very attractive.
Salt water “chops” - Great depth and good ferrous discrimination in seawater. The Nox manual recommends Beach 2 for actually in the water - it is a lower power mode with who knows what other adjustments to internal variables. - in some ways reminiscent of the CZ series “salt” mode. I am convinced that once a lightweight Pulse Induction detector, one with usable ferrous discrimination to full depth and a very short pulse delay (less than 10 microseconds) will revolutionize beach detecting. This machine when it arrives will sell for well over Nox prices.
For now - it’s king Nox. - but no king reigns forever.
Excellent analysis, Rick.
I'm nowhere near as tech savvy as you, but it seems logical to me that if the depth of pulse gets combined with effective discrimination...potentially the biggest paradigm shift since VLF...Carl Moreland has been over at First Texas for several years now and nothing new from FT in a long time except tweaks to existing platforms...and they are not a Tesoro sized company with minimal budget for r&d...you see where I'm going here, Rick?
I'm nowhere near as tech savvy as you, but it seems logical to me that if the depth of pulse gets combined with effective discrimination...potentially the biggest paradigm shift since VLF...Carl Moreland has been over at First Texas for several years now and nothing new from FT in a long time except tweaks to existing platforms...and they are not a Tesoro sized company with minimal budget for r&d...you see where I'm going here, Rick?
Minelab said:How does Multi-IQ compare to BBS/FBS?
Multi-IQ uses a different group of fundamental frequencies than BBS/FBS to generate a wide-band multi-frequency transmission signal that is more sensitive to high frequency targets and slightly less sensitive to low frequency targets. Multi-IQ uses the latest high-speed processors and advanced digital filtering techniques for a much faster recovery speed than BBS/FBS technologies. Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions almost as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions.
Found this on Minelab's site. So if deep silver is your game stick with your E-trac and CTX? I think the speed the Nox's processors and Multi-IQ will work better for me, target seperation is paramount. Slow recovery speed is why multi freq hasn't worked for me in the past. Wonder if the Nox will hit harder on silver running at 5 or 10khz alone. It may process the signal better only looking at one freq. Wait.....forget I even asked...... that would make it a single freq vlf.......the irony. Please nobody even try that, it's fraught with danger!
I saw a listing of a guy selling his 800 and keeping his Explorer II. Said he liked his old setup for deep turf. I think the Nox offers so much more but it just shows that people have different soil, objectives, and preferences dictating what they need in a detector. Forum rules prohibit me from posting a link or I would.
C
calabash digger
Guest
It does not hit silver in 5 kh better than multi been there and tried it already. The machine will smack deep silver but it will not id at depth like the ctx. Its as deep or deeper than the deus on deep silver even running the deus in 7kh.. Multi is where its at on this machine...BTW I thought it would do better in the lower freqs. Tom is a die hard explorer fan...
The Manta project - the work of Alexandre Tartar in France - was acquired - and Alexandre hired - by First Texas last year. An iron id/reject PI detector, fully waterproof and sensitive to tiny gold will emerge soon - it won’t be called Manta - Fisher is picky about names! How soon? - not as soon as we’d like.
As far as Carl Moreland, Dave Johnson, John Gardner, Jorge Anton Saad and the rest of First Texas’s engineering staff, they are all busy. Tom Walsh who is the CEO doesn’t like paying folks to sit around.
Having said all that, designing a totally new multifrequency platform isn’t easy. If it were, Fisher, Minelab and Whites would have been cranking a new model out - using new technology - every few years - that didn’t happen. My uneducated guess is that the development of a new multifreq platform would take about as long as Apple says their design horizon for new iPhones - 3-5 years.
The key to thinking about truly new detectors is to look realistically at what still remains to be done in metal detecting and of all that, what new CAPABILITITES will make a top-line new detector sell in the marketplace. I’m not talking about pie-in-the sky stuff aboult ground penetrating radar, shape recognition and imaging - I’m thinking in terms of what we lack in extracting the ever-scarcer targets from the matrix of minerals and trash.
Depth is no longer a major issue, except where high mineralization is concerned. Alternate target ID and speed and defeating ferrous masking is job #1 in my opinion. Precise numeric id is pointless except for coin shooting, since nonferrous relics and jewelry can be anywhere on the scale above iron. Having said that, how about a machine which gives dramatically better numerical US coin id in one mode and relies on enhanced and expanded audio feedback for dealing with masking.
Tiny gold (especially 10k and white gold) in wet salt is another unaddressed area. No detector today is very good at finding this stuff. It remains to be seen of the Nox will change that. The Manta which I mentioned above is very likely to do so.
As far as Carl Moreland, Dave Johnson, John Gardner, Jorge Anton Saad and the rest of First Texas’s engineering staff, they are all busy. Tom Walsh who is the CEO doesn’t like paying folks to sit around.
Having said all that, designing a totally new multifrequency platform isn’t easy. If it were, Fisher, Minelab and Whites would have been cranking a new model out - using new technology - every few years - that didn’t happen. My uneducated guess is that the development of a new multifreq platform would take about as long as Apple says their design horizon for new iPhones - 3-5 years.
The key to thinking about truly new detectors is to look realistically at what still remains to be done in metal detecting and of all that, what new CAPABILITITES will make a top-line new detector sell in the marketplace. I’m not talking about pie-in-the sky stuff aboult ground penetrating radar, shape recognition and imaging - I’m thinking in terms of what we lack in extracting the ever-scarcer targets from the matrix of minerals and trash.
Depth is no longer a major issue, except where high mineralization is concerned. Alternate target ID and speed and defeating ferrous masking is job #1 in my opinion. Precise numeric id is pointless except for coin shooting, since nonferrous relics and jewelry can be anywhere on the scale above iron. Having said that, how about a machine which gives dramatically better numerical US coin id in one mode and relies on enhanced and expanded audio feedback for dealing with masking.
Tiny gold (especially 10k and white gold) in wet salt is another unaddressed area. No detector today is very good at finding this stuff. It remains to be seen of the Nox will change that. The Manta which I mentioned above is very likely to do so.
#1Leatherneck
Well-known member
Undoubtedly, there will soon be a video comparing the V3i to the Equinox 800. This in my honest opinion will determine if there is even one metal detector to prevent all obsolete. Even the V3i can not compete because of the higher frequency/kHz capability of the Equinox 800.
Facts: The Equinox 800 has dominated the market! It is a new metal detector with the highest technology! Living in a world with the computer age, realizing technology is changing almost daily is there another detector that will even come close to the Equinox 800?
The Equinox 800 is priced extremely competitive!
Technology!
This thread: Has the Equinox made all single vlf machines obsolete, in my opinion there is only one resounding answer, and that is to be in the affirmative.
Facts: The Equinox 800 has dominated the market! It is a new metal detector with the highest technology! Living in a world with the computer age, realizing technology is changing almost daily is there another detector that will even come close to the Equinox 800?
The Equinox 800 is priced extremely competitive!
Technology!
This thread: Has the Equinox made all single vlf machines obsolete, in my opinion there is only one resounding answer, and that is to be in the affirmative.