Which one do you use and why. Seems the operating instructions only refers to using Ground coin in mineralized soil for better operation. I don't have enough emperical data to suggest whcih to use, but consider what we know about the etrac. In Andy's etrac handbook he suggests if the suggested sensivity is 21 and below to use the difficult ground setting for improved ops. In and around where I live my CTX tracks at around 27 and higher in most places in Auto sensivity. Thats 2-3 points higher than my etrac with the stock coil over the same ground. One thing though I have never seen my CTX give me a suggested suggested sensivity ever above 21. Most of my hunting has been in Ferrous coin and high trash target separation modes. The CTX's operating instructions does say that high trash is good to use in higher mineralized ground and I made a few nice deep silver dime finds using it. So as far as I know there's no published standard as to when to use either ground coin versus ferrous coin. I plan on running ground coin target separation mode for the next week. Any targets that are 6 inches and deeper according to the CTX's screen I plan on cross checking in ferrous coin and high trash modes to see if I can draw any real conclusions.
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Ground coin or Ferrous coin analysis
- Thread starter squirrel1
- Start date
EtracTom-AdirondacksNY
New member
Thanks for that I have only used High Trash and Ferrous Coin so far myself. Here my soil runs at 17-19 in Auto +3 on the Etrac and I see the CTX getting 21-23 in Auto +3 which is how I mostly run it so far. I still get deep for my area as I haven't ever found anything deeper than 8-9" hunting for many, many years since a teenager, I'm 54 now and have used many different detectors. Soil is somewhat rocky and has a deep clay layer down about 8"-9" here.
earthmansurfer
Active member
What is interesting and I have this in a lot of my videos, is I find ferrous coin to be much more stable (and overall better) in my somewhat iron mineralized ground than high trash. Though, sometimes high trash is very stable (as far as the crosshairs not bouncing around goes). I would not have guessed high trash to be good in higher mineralized grounds as the instructions state. I have compared signals on almost all targets with these two settings and ferrous coin almost always wins. Ground coin doesn't see to work as well as ferrous coin but it seems a bit more stable than high trash. I don't think my iron mineralization level is that high - I mean I can run pretty hot and running not hot hurts depth.
Like Tom, I seem to be stuck at the 9" level on coins. I do think I'd get a large silver deeper than that though.
I will keep comparing signals though and hope others do the same, the more data the better off we are. Sometimes what engineers figure is best in theory is not the case in the field (no offense meant to the engineers!) Anyway, lots of factors involved, so it's not as simple as just mineralization level.
Albert
Like Tom, I seem to be stuck at the 9" level on coins. I do think I'd get a large silver deeper than that though.
I will keep comparing signals though and hope others do the same, the more data the better off we are. Sometimes what engineers figure is best in theory is not the case in the field (no offense meant to the engineers!) Anyway, lots of factors involved, so it's not as simple as just mineralization level.
Albert
Albert you say you're stuck at the 9 inch level on coins. Ever consider this. I believe, if I read correctly, you found an American silver dime not too long ago. That was a great find in Germany where you live. What's the alloy makeup of most of the coins you find where you live. I'll bet they are not silver. If this is indeed the case that in itself may be one of the driving factors in conjunction with your soil for the 9 inch barrier. I may be wrong but I'll bet the etrac/explorer, still not sure about CTX, will find a silver dime deeper than a US nickel. And consider the nickel is somewhat bigger than the dime. I believe a lot of your coins you're diggin are moderate conductors. Hence that's why in your utube videos we see a lot of 12-31/36 coin readings. Up the coin conductivity and I'll bet the CTX/etrac/explorer would detect deeper. Cheers
earthmansurfer
Active member
squirrel1 - I agree with you. It really crossed my mind after I found that exactly quarter sized Silver Dmark at 9" or so. Even though it wasn't a 4 way signal, the 2 way angle was hard, not at all like a typical 9" coin.
The dime I got at 8" hit pretty good. I imagine it would have hit at 9" but not sure about 10". Most of the coins I found hit right in that VID range you mention (and a few are 25 ish). The bronze and copper ones I seem to find
down to 8" but not as many as the zinc coins I find at 9". It is really odd, as those Zinc coins were only made during the Nazi years, so I should be finding a lot of other coins deeper - they should just outnumber the zincs.
I imagine the zinc coins, due to corrosion, leave a large "halo" like signature which allows the machine to pick them up better?
Anyway, I agree with your analysis/observation. I guess the good news for me is that my future deepest coin will probably be a silver! (There just aren't a lot of silver coins in Germany, relative to the States)
Thanks,
Albert
The dime I got at 8" hit pretty good. I imagine it would have hit at 9" but not sure about 10". Most of the coins I found hit right in that VID range you mention (and a few are 25 ish). The bronze and copper ones I seem to find
down to 8" but not as many as the zinc coins I find at 9". It is really odd, as those Zinc coins were only made during the Nazi years, so I should be finding a lot of other coins deeper - they should just outnumber the zincs.
I imagine the zinc coins, due to corrosion, leave a large "halo" like signature which allows the machine to pick them up better?
Anyway, I agree with your analysis/observation. I guess the good news for me is that my future deepest coin will probably be a silver! (There just aren't a lot of silver coins in Germany, relative to the States)
Thanks,
Albert
Silvermaster
New member
Boys I think the 9 inch limit your seeing on the ctx will be its undoing.
I have done everything except to pull my hair out and cannot get mine to lock on Minnie ball targets any deeper even though I regularly find them with a f75 ace 250 or v3i at depths exceeding a foot.
My etrac seems to locate silver really well but again I ain't never exceeded the 10 inch depth limit.
My v3i loves wheats up to a foot as the fisher love Minnie balls so I really think m/l may have sold us a goat on this one !
Don't get me wrong I luv them all and detect probably more than anyone but I don't get performance in the field out of the ctx yet-- maybe in the future but not yet and I never give up!
I have done everything except to pull my hair out and cannot get mine to lock on Minnie ball targets any deeper even though I regularly find them with a f75 ace 250 or v3i at depths exceeding a foot.
My etrac seems to locate silver really well but again I ain't never exceeded the 10 inch depth limit.
My v3i loves wheats up to a foot as the fisher love Minnie balls so I really think m/l may have sold us a goat on this one !
Don't get me wrong I luv them all and detect probably more than anyone but I don't get performance in the field out of the ctx yet-- maybe in the future but not yet and I never give up!
earthmansurfer
Active member
Silvermaster - As I've said on another forum to you - In my somewhat mineralized iron soil, the V3i won't go more than 7" (maybe 8" on silver) on coins. Starting around 6" its VID is all over the place (same for the Deus but it will go deeper). I had a T2 (which is basically an F75 with more of an iron range) for years and I never got past 6" for the same reasons - my soil.
Now, you have 3 posts on the other forum and as of now, 7 posts on this forum. You have not listed your settings but say you have all the machines. I'm not saying what you are experiencing isn't real, as different soils will do that, but you come here with general statements as well as on Toms site, you are not listing settings and say the V3i gets great depth.
Well, if you want people to work with you, you got to give more information. You got to post better things than "If everyone is as dissatisfied with the CTX as I am then no wonder they're coming up for sale. ... " Something just don't add up here. I am a pretty critical guy of machines in general, ask anyone on this or other forums. But I call it as I see it. Something is a miss with your posts.
Give us the details, the settings, the conditions, etc. You have a V3i, give us the ground probe readings, I understand all that and can make sense of it. And, while you are at it, give us some video cross checking the signals since you own all the machines in question.
Albert
Now, you have 3 posts on the other forum and as of now, 7 posts on this forum. You have not listed your settings but say you have all the machines. I'm not saying what you are experiencing isn't real, as different soils will do that, but you come here with general statements as well as on Toms site, you are not listing settings and say the V3i gets great depth.
Well, if you want people to work with you, you got to give more information. You got to post better things than "If everyone is as dissatisfied with the CTX as I am then no wonder they're coming up for sale. ... " Something just don't add up here. I am a pretty critical guy of machines in general, ask anyone on this or other forums. But I call it as I see it. Something is a miss with your posts.
Give us the details, the settings, the conditions, etc. You have a V3i, give us the ground probe readings, I understand all that and can make sense of it. And, while you are at it, give us some video cross checking the signals since you own all the machines in question.
Albert
I pulled a Mercury dime at 10" yesterday with solid Fe-Co 12-44 numbers using Ground-Coin, and checking it with Ferrous-Coin both in Combine, and it was very stable once I got the coil right over the sweet spot and started to wiggle it. I would've never dug a 10" dime with my ETRAC, so I'm in unfamiliar territory with these deeper targets. This machine is better than my ETRAC is. My results and comparable data from hunting the same areas with both machines suggests it.
My soil is some what mineralized also and Ferrous coin is what i run tried Ground coin on some signals and was not as good as Ferrous coin so i'm sticking with Ferrous coin. Also found a wheat at 9 1/2 and a clad dime at 10 so i know it well go deep if you get the coil over it.
I 90% of the time use ground coin. I have found that GC really hits those deep targets. Ferrous coin is much faster in recovery time than GC and more stable, but I have had great success with GC even in trashy parks. My rule of thumb is I always use GC unless its way too trashy and the CTX nulls too much. In regards to depth, I easily hit a quarter 15" away doing an air test. Sometimes targets will not go any deeper than the soil allows. As you get deeper in the soil, the density increases as the presure of the soil causes it to compact. Thus the coin sinks to a level that is equal to its density. Around here, most places will not see targets deeper than 6-8" At the 8" level you will find all of the rocks and larger items in the soil. So perhaps where you live, 9" is the level at which the density is equal to most of the coins.
EtracTom-AdirondacksNY
New member
I never said I couldn't find a coin deeper than 9" and I have found coins at up to 11-12" the depth gauge was burried. What I said was that around here there is a hardpan layer made up of clay that will stop most coins from going deeper and that layer is at about 8-9" deep around here. First there is a black soil layer, then a layer of yellow soil, then a thick deep clay layer. What's under that or how deep I don't know cause at that point I stop digging in the parks and schools and homes around here. If I was in farm fields with a shovel that would be a different story. I found a barber quarter in a local park back on fathers day in 2001 and it was every bit of 11-12" deep with my first experience with an explorer my Explorer 2 and the depth guage was all white no black at all. Most coins are just not too deep is all.
At the risk of upsetting some people I think too many are to fixated about and with finding DEEP coins and they just aren't there (not necessarily meaning or singling you out Albert but I'm just saying) . Most are so busy looking for the deep signals to dig passing over what they call shallow signals thinking they are going to find goodies cause they are deep and it's the old good coins/targets they are passing over that they are looking for because they aren't deep just missed because alot think this way. Just like the people who want to get into detecting and just go out and find only rings and jewlery and don't want to dig any tabs or caps or foil it's unrealistic expectational thinking.
I have in the last 3 years with an Etrac dug just about every signal I got at only 2 small local parks so far that I have been hunting and I am surprised at what turns up in only these 2 small park locations down the street from my home. I'm in no hurry to move on. Saving other spots for later on I like to try to clena out a place before moving on. But I believe that may be unrealistic expectation on my part due to frost heaving in the winter moving things in the soil around and now you can find them amoung other things like moisture helping out the depth go deeper due to halo effects of targets. This dry ground is hampering that and that may be why you guys aren't finding targets deeper right now. Wait till wet moist soil and you will be surprised at the added depth you'll get.
Well people tell others that to find gold it's all over the place so don't discriminate too much and dig lots of pop tops and pull tabs and you will find some gold that's good advice!! Well so are the coins due to many factors and angles in the ground and soil types and conditions and co-locations with other objects and iron among other things in the matrix mix. They aren't just all deep.
I constantly find things that don't read right but sound good, for instance I got a sliver canadian 1951 quarter yesterday at a sandy soiled ballfield near a friends house at only 4-5" deep and it read CO 29-30 I don't recall the ferrous no. as I don't really give a darn about ferrous numbers, just the sounds of the targets and sometimes co. numbers is what I go by. I dug a 1934 rusty buffalo nickle at co. 26-29 and the ferrous was a bad high number and it was only 5-6" deep at my local park with the new CTX and I have pounded the ever living crap out of this ballfield with many machines and angles just last year but it must have been a really crappy signal masquerading as iron or garbage but the CTX nailed it cause it sounded good, clean sounding. Found a 1817 large cent under a penny with a CZ-5 couple of years ago and only found it cause I dug up the penny trying to clean out a maybe 30x30 spot of grass near a building in this park. The Large cent coin was only about 5-6" deep and the penny was 4" deep over it and I only got the penny signal. I reswept the hole like I always do before filling it in so I don't have to redig it just in case this happens.
If the coins/objects aren't there and aren't deep they can't and aren't going to be found I don't care what one does or uses for a machine. I'd rather up my finds and go for the signals rather than fretting and lamenting about depth or lack thereof or a machines supposed short comings. Some machines are better at finding at certain objects than others are and they were specifically designed for doing so so use that machine.
If I was really going for just nickles and gold/jewlery I would just swing my G2, if really deep relics my F75LTD with boost mode, maybe the CTX if it was set right for what I was looking for but it's I think designed to be a deep coin especially silver machine and has been seen time and time again over the years with all these different forums and posts in them from the different Minelab machines. Minelabs work better with some discrimination especially in the High Trash setting it has that to work off of comparing signals.
At the risk of upsetting some people I think too many are to fixated about and with finding DEEP coins and they just aren't there (not necessarily meaning or singling you out Albert but I'm just saying) . Most are so busy looking for the deep signals to dig passing over what they call shallow signals thinking they are going to find goodies cause they are deep and it's the old good coins/targets they are passing over that they are looking for because they aren't deep just missed because alot think this way. Just like the people who want to get into detecting and just go out and find only rings and jewlery and don't want to dig any tabs or caps or foil it's unrealistic expectational thinking.
I have in the last 3 years with an Etrac dug just about every signal I got at only 2 small local parks so far that I have been hunting and I am surprised at what turns up in only these 2 small park locations down the street from my home. I'm in no hurry to move on. Saving other spots for later on I like to try to clena out a place before moving on. But I believe that may be unrealistic expectation on my part due to frost heaving in the winter moving things in the soil around and now you can find them amoung other things like moisture helping out the depth go deeper due to halo effects of targets. This dry ground is hampering that and that may be why you guys aren't finding targets deeper right now. Wait till wet moist soil and you will be surprised at the added depth you'll get.
Well people tell others that to find gold it's all over the place so don't discriminate too much and dig lots of pop tops and pull tabs and you will find some gold that's good advice!! Well so are the coins due to many factors and angles in the ground and soil types and conditions and co-locations with other objects and iron among other things in the matrix mix. They aren't just all deep.
I constantly find things that don't read right but sound good, for instance I got a sliver canadian 1951 quarter yesterday at a sandy soiled ballfield near a friends house at only 4-5" deep and it read CO 29-30 I don't recall the ferrous no. as I don't really give a darn about ferrous numbers, just the sounds of the targets and sometimes co. numbers is what I go by. I dug a 1934 rusty buffalo nickle at co. 26-29 and the ferrous was a bad high number and it was only 5-6" deep at my local park with the new CTX and I have pounded the ever living crap out of this ballfield with many machines and angles just last year but it must have been a really crappy signal masquerading as iron or garbage but the CTX nailed it cause it sounded good, clean sounding. Found a 1817 large cent under a penny with a CZ-5 couple of years ago and only found it cause I dug up the penny trying to clean out a maybe 30x30 spot of grass near a building in this park. The Large cent coin was only about 5-6" deep and the penny was 4" deep over it and I only got the penny signal. I reswept the hole like I always do before filling it in so I don't have to redig it just in case this happens.
If the coins/objects aren't there and aren't deep they can't and aren't going to be found I don't care what one does or uses for a machine. I'd rather up my finds and go for the signals rather than fretting and lamenting about depth or lack thereof or a machines supposed short comings. Some machines are better at finding at certain objects than others are and they were specifically designed for doing so so use that machine.
If I was really going for just nickles and gold/jewlery I would just swing my G2, if really deep relics my F75LTD with boost mode, maybe the CTX if it was set right for what I was looking for but it's I think designed to be a deep coin especially silver machine and has been seen time and time again over the years with all these different forums and posts in them from the different Minelab machines. Minelabs work better with some discrimination especially in the High Trash setting it has that to work off of comparing signals.
Tom well said!! I agree with your post totally. Big the coins aren't there, then they aren't there. I too hunt like yourself. Maybe I'm old school but I believe in cleaning out a place. My objective is to get every signal and make my spots signal free. In public places like parks, there are layers and layers of targets. To get the deep targets you need to remove the shallow ones. That means digging lots of trash.
earthmansurfer
Active member
It is interesting what everyone is saying regarding ferrous coin or ground coin working better. I have not given up on ground coin and jimzilla has peaked my interest there. Also, I get the feeling my iron mineralization is not so simple. I think there are a lot of ferrous flakes in my ground (not necessarily higher iron mineralization) and that is why ferrous coin works so solidly. (And that is why high trash sometimes bounces so violently at depth). I do know there are deeper coins in my ground as I found an iron clad coin at 12" (an anomaly of sorts).
What I would really like to see are ground balance and ground mineralization numbers displayed by the CTX so we could make better sense of the data in this discussion. The numbers are inside, just need to be displayed.
Albert
What I would really like to see are ground balance and ground mineralization numbers displayed by the CTX so we could make better sense of the data in this discussion. The numbers are inside, just need to be displayed.
Albert
Albert, here's something to try. Get some tape or something and mark your CTX coil. When you find another target at say 8-9 inches compare the CTX's signal over the span of the coil using both ferrous coin and ground coin. And also get you some really bright markers and mark the supposed deep target. Then approach the target from different angles with different sweep speeds. See if you can with enough targets of course see a trend at which coin mode actually ups the odds of finding with say a brisker sweep. I have noticed in ground coin, my CTX's threshold tends to blank in and out moreso than ferrous coin when using a somewhat fast sweep speed. I also notice the screen numbers seem to jump in the screen faster in ferrous coin vs ground coin. Are we having fun yet? I'm seeing things with this CTX every time I take it out that leads me to believe this detector is in a class all by itself. As more time passes and more target info versus conditions come in we'll have more data to see if my hunch is right.
earthmansurfer
Active member
Squirrel - Yeah, I'm having fun. I enjoy learning a new machine and as I've mentioned a few times before, I'm leery of settling on any settings to early.
I like what you are saying with marking the coil. I use red golf tees for spotting targets so I am halfway there (guess I could use a blinking light but... eheheh) I'll get some narrow tape or the like for the coils and note the response I get with different ground settings (not to mention 50 CO vs. Combine) and try to get anything noteworthy on film.
I imagine that ground coin, by definition, is going to give a slower response as it's using "advanced signal processing" and probably some filters to ascertain the target and display information. Instead of us looking at the ground settings as what they are labelled at (e.g. - low, trash, high trash, ferrous coin & ground coin) I think it would open up things a bit to think of the actual filters being used (in some of them anyway.) This leads me to - So, why does ferrous coin work better in my ground than high trash when the manual states that high trash can be used in higher ground mineralization and ferrous coin in lower? That is why I mentioned iron flakes above. I also think it is why ground coin jumps a bit and doesn't seem as spot on in my somewhat iron mineralized ground.
Please Minelab - give us some ground reading information
When we have that, we will be able to really transmit and make sense of so much more.
Thanks,
Albert
I enjoy learning a new machine and as I've mentioned a few times before, I'm leery of settling on any settings to early. I like what you are saying with marking the coil. I use red golf tees for spotting targets so I am halfway there (guess I could use a blinking light but... eheheh) I'll get some narrow tape or the like for the coils and note the response I get with different ground settings (not to mention 50 CO vs. Combine) and try to get anything noteworthy on film.
I imagine that ground coin, by definition, is going to give a slower response as it's using "advanced signal processing" and probably some filters to ascertain the target and display information. Instead of us looking at the ground settings as what they are labelled at (e.g. - low, trash, high trash, ferrous coin & ground coin) I think it would open up things a bit to think of the actual filters being used (in some of them anyway.) This leads me to - So, why does ferrous coin work better in my ground than high trash when the manual states that high trash can be used in higher ground mineralization and ferrous coin in lower? That is why I mentioned iron flakes above. I also think it is why ground coin jumps a bit and doesn't seem as spot on in my somewhat iron mineralized ground.
Please Minelab - give us some ground reading information
When we have that, we will be able to really transmit and make sense of so much more.
Thanks,
Albert