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Garrett ATX and batteries

Hi Jerry and Joe !

Thanks to both of you and all the other posters for some good battery info!
On my GPX soon to be someone else's :clapping: I played around with some lipos that sat right under the control box.
It has worked well....and at least I got rid of the cords...

Jerry curiosity is good in all things and most of the time...I don't mind at all..I got some question myself..:)
I think Joe's right....about discussing other topics in a general discussion area of this forum....unless you use the word ...battery in every sentence..:biggrin:

Let me see where we might have a go at a few non MD topics if ya like....

I'll post some thing here...

Cheers Jerry & Joe et al

Tye
 
Hi Jerry ...Joe,

I started a topic called 'Things that Fly'. On the 'Other hobbies forum' of this site...

Cheers,

Tye
 
Hi Joe & Tye,

Joe thanks for that DS info. Actually $40 for 2 sets is quite good. Can't argue with that.

Sorry to both of you guys, I didn't quite realize the fact we were straying or I was straying from the MD topic. Now I realize why that thread about meteorites and our posts have disappeared. Probably not quite MD for gold so it was taken out. Just a thought...

Tye, if you come up with the solution it would be great. To help each other and share experiences even outside the MD is the way to go!

I will let you know about the results of my BATTERY tests, probably late tomorrow.

All the best Joe & Tye.

Jerry
 
Hey Jerry
I wasn't getting on at you. Just thought people coming onto this post wouldn't be too happy if we started to change the subject.
Looks like this post is helping people to make up their minds on the battery types and chargers too. Great to know that the post will help people save money and hopefully no dead batteries left out in the :detecting: fields.
Looking forward to seeing the test results from Jerry too.
Cheers
Joe
 
OK so you take the 1.2 volt 1900mah batt and start discharging it into a load.at a rate of 1900 ma for one hour. At what point in time will it become 1.2 volt 1425 mah battery ? Will it be dead flat after one hour at 1900mah or does it still retain enough capacity to be able to deliver 1.2 volts at 1425mah? (Into a short cct maybe but not into a load like a metal detector) The terminal voltage of these batteries drops as the capacity is reduced during discharge and as this voltage drops so does the current delivering power into a load.
At what point in the discharge cycle will it become a 1.2 volt 1425mah batt? It would have to be after one hour otherwise it could not be rated as a 1900mah battery in the first place.
I have had enough do with batteries to know that the rated capacity is only theoretical . The reality is very different.

For instance my Infinium draws 130ma constant current no matter whether it is idling or detecting a big target.(Clever design by garrett) I use 2300mah batt therfore I should be able to get 17.7 hours of detecting but in reality these batteries will run the infinium for approx 10 hours and by then the battery voltage is close to 0.9 volts per cell and the Infinium will be already down to one battery test beep and the detector will not be running very well at all. The regulated voltage for the Infinium is 7.2 volts. The batteries may well still be capable of delivering much more than 130ma into a short cct but the Infinium cct does not draw enough current at below 7.2 volts to be able to function correctly..no matter what the capacity of the battery may be.

NiMh batts are not constant current batteries whereas NiCds are and as a result the detector will run near pefectly from these batteries up until when the batteries are discharged and then all of a sudden the detector stops functioning . There is no gradual tapering off of performance as with NiMh and alkalines.


This is interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(electricity)
 
Hi Fishers Ghost
When I started this post I didn't think it was going to get so technical. Looks like you have done a good bit of research and good to put it out there for others to comment on. I am just going to have a go with the Eneloops and see how long they last. If they are no good then it's back to the drawing board :confused:
Looks like you have your batteries sorted.
Cheers
Joe
 
I just got two 8 packs of the 1900 mAH Eneloop AA's from Best Buy for $21.00 each.
 
Hi Jerry !

I started a topic called 'Things that Fly'. On the 'Other hobbies forum' of this site...
We should be able to talk about any subject....there....let me know if you can't find it.

See you there...Jerry! For a little non MD talk....

Cheers,

Tye
 
Hi Tye & Joe,

Tye, I have found the new location for our non MD & Flying stuff talk. Great! Thanks for creating it. I will see you there in a few days because I have to go away.

Joe, I didn't think you were getting on at me, but you have made me aware of the fact, which I at that moment was not taking into consideration. We'll talk on the new location if you have any Multirotor questions.

And now to my battery tests. OK, guys, be glad you chose to go Eneloop. After extensive tests with different resistive loads this is my conclusion:

Although the cheep Chinese batteries will perform more than 12 hours in the VLF detector, their rated 3000mAh capacity has now diminishes considerably. Some of those that I've had for 2 years have dropped down to about 900mAh which is mere 30% of their capacity.

This fact has escaped me as when I did the test the batts were new and they were up to the rating. Since then I've been using them where the load is not too high and kept charging them before running them down low.

Therefore their weakness has not manifest itself to me.

Nevertheless, at the cost of $5.35 per set of 8, even if you get only 100 cycles, it would cost you a little over 5 cents per about 12 hours of your MD operation. MILLION times cheaper than even the cheapest set of Alkaline batteries.

So there you have it.

I also have about 20 Jaycar 2500mAh Powertech batts @ $16.95 per set of 4. These are absolutely excellent, displaying their full capacity into a hefty 1.4 Ohm load at 0.85 Amps and 1.19V holding this for just under 2 and half hours. I've had them for 2 years, recharged many times.

Here is the table:

Start............. 1 battery into 1.4 Ohm load.......measured 1.288V..........0.92A

After 1 hour..................................................................1.232V..........0.88A

After 2 hours.................................................................1.19V......... 0.85A

After 2 hours and 30 minutes.........................................1.092V......... 0.78A - last usable

After 2 hours and 40 minutes..........................................0.3V............ 0.23A - 10 minutes later flat

Please note that the discharge current is quite high and continuous.

I shoud imagine your Eneloop batts should demonstrate equally good current holding capacity, at just slightly reduced capacity - 2400mAh vs 1900mAh

See you in a few days, T & J

Cheers

Jerry
 
Interesting.......that's the same price I paid from Dell shipped. I am going to see if Best Buy carries them in Edmonton.

Just checked.....they don't carry them in Canada.
 
Hi Fishers Ghost

To answer your questions:
Firs lets go to this one:

You write: "OK so you take the 1.2 volt 1900mah batt and start discharging it into a load.at a rate of 1900 ma for one hour. At what point in time will it become 1.2 volt 1425 mah battery ? Will it be dead flat after one hour at 1900mah or does it still retain enough capacity to be able to deliver 1.2 volts at 1425mah? (Into a short cct maybe but not into a load like a metal detector) The terminal voltage of these batteries drops as the capacity is reduced during discharge and as this voltage drops so does the current delivering power into a load."

Example. You have a brand new 1900mAh battery. You are discharging at a rate of 1900mA. It will take 1 hour for the battery go flat.

At which point the 1900mAh batt becomes 1450mAh can not be predicted or calculated. You can calculate what it is at the moment by a known result. Your Infinium can work for only 10 hours before the voltage drops below 1.0V (considered flat). The Infinium draws constant 130mA.

Lets calculate: 130mA x 10hrs = 1300mAh. At this point after the length of time you've used these batts for, they have GRADUALLY become 1300mAh Up to this point of their capacity the voltage and current will be same as in a brand new battery.

Now, pay attention please.

As the battery gets older and number of times recharged grows higher, it's HOLDING CAPACITY gradually diminishes. The same battery might drop down to 1800mAh CAPACITY after one year, down to 1700mAh CAPACITY after the second year and so on. After it has reached its life limit, the capacity will be down to aproximately 1425mAh as above. This might take years! It depends how many recharge cycles it had.

It has nothing to do with any Voltage or Amperage! They will always have the same characteristics, only the battery will stay charged for 30% less time then it used to when it was brand new. It is exactly the same as if you go to the shop and buy a brand new NiMH battery at 1500mAh. You would have no questions about it's voltage or currents. You'll just paid a little less because its holding capacity is a bit less and it will stay charged for a little less time. As simple as that!

Another thing is, there is no such thing as a constant voltage or constant current battery. It cannot exist!

When on a FIXED load, the batterie's voltage drop goes down with the current drop. Let's say you are discharging a battery. Any battery. Rechargeable or not. The battery NiMH measures 1.25Volts. You hook it up tro a 10 Ohm resistor. By applying OHMS LAW the current drawn will be I = V/R , =1.25V/10Ohm = 0.125A or 125mA.

As the NiMh battery discharges it might drop to 1.2V after some time which will drop the current proportionally: I = V/R, = 1.2V/ 10Ohm = 0.12A or 120mA
When the battery Voltage drops to 1.0 V then the current becomes I=V/R, = 1.0V/10Ohm = 0.1A or 100mA and so on.

By now we have dropped from the initial 1.25V at 125mA to 1.0V at 100mA.

One more note on the batteries.

NiMH as well as NiCD batteries have a relatively flat discharge curve. Both of them, not just NiCD. Their nominal Voltage is lower than Alkalines, but stays put with only very little drop over the capacity of the battery. Then there is a sudden drop over the cliff and that's it.

Normal batteries and Alkalines are about 1.5 V per cell and start going down by tapering off the Voltage very slowly from the moment you put a load on them.

Now to your Infinium question. You have calculated it right! The batteries should comfortably power the Infinium for 17.7 hours. The reason they don't and go dead after just 10 hours is that the holding capacity of your batteries have OVER TIME diminshed from 2300mAh down to 1300mAh. This is a drop from 100% to about 56%. BTW, NiMH or NiCD under 1.0 Volt is considered flat. In other words, your batteries have aged, or were of doubtful quality when new, or have been always charged by a fast charger. They will still serve you, but go flat sooner. They're just not new anymore!

I hope I have been able to explain it clear enough.

Cheers

Jerry
 
Hi Jerry...

That's great info about the different battery chemistries! I did not know NiMH held THEIR voltage that well over the course of their discharge.

This is my favorite way to write OL. E = IR ..... I guess I've had to calc a lot of voltage drops with my ham radio stuff and what not over the years.

Jerry....I hope you have a safe trip that exceeds your expectations!

Cheers!

Tye
 
Hi JE....

I don't know if you have Costco up your way.....but that's where I bought enloops for about 13 bucks for 8 .

Cheers,

Tye
 
Ok. OK, Okaaaaaay. Maybe I shooda sed. Relatively constant current battery.
What I was trying to say was where you said.

Quote:

Jerry.

NiMH as well as NiCD batteries have a relatively flat discharge curve. Both of them, not just NiCD. Their nominal Voltage is lower than Alkalines, but stays put with only very little drop over the capacity of the battery. Then there is a sudden drop over the cliff and that's it. Unquote:

I need a little lay down now. :surrender:
 
Adrian ....

Those two sentences were a bit of a tough go..:cry:...perhaps a nap is in order..
Please come back when you're able.....

Cheers,

Tye
 
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