Fors Core is SO CLOSE

[Trashfinder]

I had to get my Id mask above the pull tab before i could see the solid 81-83 ID's i was getting just wish it would sound off as well. I have the Relic now and i have only put in about 30 minutes with it so far trying to get a tone and ID on the dime. I liked your video , very well done. I think i might have set my masking test hole a bit too hard. So far without naming names i have tried all the big name machines and mid range machines and no luck. With the square tab so close to the dime and only about 2 inches down from the surface it really makes it a masking nightmare. I do believe if i had cut a plug as big as yours in the video and maybe moved the tab another inch away from the dime i do believe the Fors Core and the 2 Fbs machines i own would not only ID but tone as well. The very expensive FBS machine would give me a jumpy ID but when i did get an ID the CO number was fairly stable and correct for a dime. But honestly no machine was as solid as the Fors Core on ID and so far even the Relic is not as solid as the Core,,,,, but i still have more testing to do before i call the winner. But i will throw this out there , i am extremely impressed with the depth Nokta achieved with the Relic at 19kz all my other machines that run at that frequency do not even come close in depth!

 

[Monte]

and Makro Racer 2, using comparable search coils, settings, and the same effective sweep speed, AND sweep direction for search coil presentation, should provide very similar performance. If there is any make or model on the market that comes close to competing with their excellent level of target response, recovery and unmasking [size=small](and I can't think of a single one I have ever handled that achieves such performance)[/size], they will/could also provide close performance on a highly challenging test scenario.

I like to use as many 'test scenarios' as I can that duplicate actual in-the-field encounters I have made over many years that I feel are both practical and a more logical-to-occur type 'test' for all makes and models and search coils. To me, keeping things simple and practical is all that is necessary to find both the strengths and weaknesses in detector/coil performance. I believe it is a waste of time, and can even add to a personas frustrations or disappointment when a 'test' is not from an actual former field encounter, or is simply illogical and/or impractical in the first place.

So, let's take a look at your test set-up and results:

Here is the scenario, i have a masking test that no detector has ever passed or even come close to passing.

Okay, so you have devised a test that is NOT based on any in-the-field encounter you have had where you could find a deeper-positioned and smaller-size US coin that is masked by two different types of metal targets which are each positioned much shallower than the coin, and within a very, very close proximity.

Well, since it is a contrived 'test' using three different alloy samples of different shapes and all fitted in a 270 cu. in. hunk of dirt with the smaller-size sample, a U.S. 10¢ coin at the bottom of the 7½" depth, that can be a tough enough challenge for many people to find even if un-masked. In your case you have a higher-conductive aluminum rectangle pry-tab positioned only 2" off-center axis away from the coin but 5" higher than the coin and closer to the induced EMF, and worse yet, a ferrous nail 2½" above the coin and angled such that one end [size=small](head or point ??)[/size] is only 1" from the axis of the coin.

Considering the desired target's smaller size and depth, and the two undesired ferrous and non-ferrous targets shallower position in close proximity to the center-axis of the coin, I would say you have made up an impractical 'test scenario.' Is it possible to get a response from the deeply located U.S. Dime? Yes, if everything just happens to be in your favor on a particular sweep from a perfect direction and an ideal sweep speed and with optimum settings.

Otherwise, the general answer is No, it is not a 'practical' test scenario. My opinion, but it is based on over fifty years of detecting and forty-seven years of very avid Relic Hunting many very challenging sites littered with primarily ferrous junk with an abundance of non-ferrous trash mixed in. And I always strive to have the best multi-purpose detectors in my personal arsenal that excel at Relic Hunting and that requires top-end performance when it comes to unmasking 'keepers' in amongst a lot of trash.

I have tried machines that cost from 500 to 2500 dollars all the big names all with small coils.

Smaller size coils are important, but I haven't always been impressed with the higher-dollar detectors. My primary-use, specialty units, and reserve models are listed in my signature below, and none of them are what I would consider 'high-dollar' detectors or detector packages. Not high-dollar, but affordable mid-priced detectors with exceptional in-the-field performance.

Found a used Fors Core and purchased it to see if it could pass. I have included a basic picture of my 6x6 inch plug that is 7.5 inches deep. Bottom of hole slightly off center is a dime, two and half inches up and at an angle to the dime is a two inch long crusty old nail that i found while detecting. The head of the old nail is about 1 inch from the dime. At 2.5 inches from surface i put a square tab that that is 2 inches from the dime.

The Nokta FORS CoRe is one of the best general-purpose detectors on the market, and the one you had is now in my oldest son's arsenal. It will be his primary-use detector as his others are for his wife and children to use. I checked it out completely, and both search coils, and the only issue I had with it was the extra hole someone put in the lower rod. Actually, I had three issues with that:

1.. It wasn't centered between the existing lower-rod holes, and I like things in order and it isn't. Plus drilling the hole in the metal tube leaves a bit of a bare spot around the edge of the hole.

2.. I have made rod-length adjustments for decades in order to get a better 'fit' but never drilled the metal rod. Instead, I have extra snap-lock springs. I use an adjacent existing hole in the middle rod and mark a circle in the lower rod in the hole next to where the spring-clip button is. Next, I measure the exact distance from the center of the marked hole and current hole in the lower rod, THEN I drill a matching hole in the lower rod. I put one spring-clip in the hole closer to the coil-end with the bended spring pointed toward the coil, and another spring-clip in the factory drilled hole with the spring bend facing the end, away from the coil.

That way I can make half-step adjustments I might feel necessary based upon the size of the search coil used and the rod-mount point on the coil to get a proper and comfortable balance.

3.. Noticing the new hole to position the lower rod and that it was much closer to the coil-end of the middle rod, that suggested to me that the operator most likely searches with a coil that is extended too far out from them to balance well and it can also lead to poor search coil presentation, overlapping, and sweep speed. This is something I have witnesses all too often for many, many years. Generally, most manufacturers have suggested the search coil be positioned about 12"-18" in from of your leading toe. It is also encouraged, by me and in m=nay newer manuals and other instructions, that the search coil should be worked about ±2" off the ground, swept in a more-or-less straight line, and only be about a 30" to 3' length from side-to-side.

Coils that are out there on extended rods usually cause the operator to sweep broader sweeps, they don't overlap very well, the bigger sweep coverage often leads to a faster pace and that results in more area that isn't covered or overlapped. Too fast a sweep speed can also impair the response and recovery rate of many detectors, and definitely cuts down on performance when it is necessary to work in and around trash and unmask desired targets close to junk.

In case anyone asks or thinks about asking, I am 6' tall and I usually work the smaller-size coil, a 5½X10 second most often, and the 7X11 only in more open, sparse-target sites. I usually have my search coil rod adjusted to the shortest position possible, but at times I do extend it to the 2nd hole based upon the coil used. I know that taller folks might want a little more rod extension, but having worked with newcomers and more seasoned people at seminars and presentations since the latter '70s, I can guarantee that most who have used a more extended coil set-up have converted to using a shorter length rod set-up and have slowed their sweep speed and improved the coverage as well with very favorable results and improvements afield.

The Fors Core will only see the dime if you have Id masked out both the iron and the tab. Will see the dime in Di2 or DI3 very rock solid 81-83 it is not jumpy in the least and when i say solid i mean solid.

Okay so you say what is the problem right? Well it is only a visual ID no sound period, it will not tone on the dime at all, but yet, the ID rock solid every swing of the coil. So bottom line is the machine sees the dime but will not sound off and i do not hunt watching the little ID screen i wait for tone then check ID. If there was a way to tweak ID mask somehow to go ahead and sound off on the 81-83 ID this machine could not be touched in trash hunting.

I know Nokta reads some of these forums i hope they see what i posted.

A lot of visual Target ID indications you get can be from the mixture of nearby targets, and also from the iron nail. Due to the nature of conductivities associated with iron junk due to the way man shaped them, more specifically the head of a nail, you can get a higher TID read-out that isn't anticipated for a ferrous target. Plus the nearby non-ferrous objects can add to the processing confusion.

Tried that today jack pine it didn't work, I have a fors relic on the way will update on how it does.

The Nokta FORS Relic is my #1 general-purpose detector in my entire arsenal. The Nokta FORS Gold + and FORS CoRe also provide me with exceptional in-the-field performance, but the Relic gives me some added adjustment functions to help in the highly iron littered sites, especially those with an abundance of rusty tin.

I know what the FORS Gold + and FORS Relic provided me in the way of unmasking performance that is partly due to the 19 kHz operating frequency and added Tone Break and Iron Audio of the Relic, but the FORS CoRe has some strengths in its favor, too. I enjoy them all and I really doubt that you will see any major difference in performance with the FORS Relic you have coming. That said, if you get an urge to let it go as well, and if it is still in excellent, 'as-new' condition, I would be inter4ested in it. I would like one more Relic to mount another coil on, so if it doesn't cut it on your 'test' and you want to let it go, just e-mail me as that might save you some time.

Monte

 

[Monte]

I think i might have set my masking test hole a bit too hard. So far without naming names i have tried all the big name machines and mid range machines and no luck. With the square tab so close to the dime and only about 2 inches down from the surface it really makes it a masking nightmare. I do believe if i had cut a plug as big as yours in the video and maybe moved the tab another inch away from the dime i do believe the Fors Core and the 2 Fbs machines i own would not only ID but tone as well.

I agree, as I stated above, that the test scenario you set up was a bit too impractical. Still, it was a good effort to try and learn the strengths of different detectors, and the FORS CoRe and Relic models are some of the best out there.

But honestly no machine was as solid as the Fors Core on ID and so far even the Relic is not as solid as the Core,,,,, but i still have more testing to do before i call the winner.

Also as I mentioned in my post a few minutes ago, both the Relic and CoRe have their own strengths and weaknesses, and depending upon the search mode used, the Sensitivity and ID Mask settings, and search coil used, I have also seen some performance 'edge' with the CoRe over the Relic. Still, the Relic is my #1 unit and the CoRe serves a purpose for me mainly in more open environments.

But i will throw this out there , i am extremely impressed with the depth Nokta achieved with the Relic at 19kz all my other machines that run at that frequency do not even come close in depth!

Yes, indeed! I have owned and used several 19 kHz models of recent manufacture and none of them come close to the performance, depth and results at unmasking that I get from the FORS Relic and even the Gold + when the main culprit is just iron nails.

Monte

 

[Trashfinder]

As far as a real world situation i do not see why the masking setup is not practical, there is no reason to believe that it could not happen and it very likely happens. Tons of nails everywhere i hunt, and pull tabs while not as abundant as iron are still very plentiful. I actually have not dug a plug in real life with this scenario most likely because detectors would never see the dime for it to be found in the real world. But it is very likely and probable that this scenario or something like it does in fact exist and i believe that there are actually worse case scenarios than this in real life. Most masking tests performed by most people now days are in the same plane or close to same plane. If i had reversed the setup and the dime had been the top target i am sure that most detectors from the 250 dollar range up would have no difficulty finding the dime. My goal was to see if there exists a detector in the sub $2500 fbs range machine down that could pull the dime from the trash. And the answer is yes, the 2500 dollar machine with 6 in coil did see it , it was jumpy but obvious, and this machine would not tone either btw. Only thing that came close after that was the Fors Core which would give a rock solid ID every time if the tab and nail were masked out ,, but no tone, i believe that Nokta can fix this. If the machine can ID the dime perfectly why can't they make it tone as well? If they do they will jump even farther ahead of the competition in unmasking abilities than they already are. Only reason i buy and sell the machines is i cannot afford them all. I kept the relic over the Fors Core because from my testing i liked it even more than i did my Fors Core.

One solution is to dig every pull tab and then re-sweep the area , which i do, especially in areas where i do not see many pull tabs. I have only been detecting 38 years so you have a few years on me. I would not even have posted this thread in the first place ,,,except that i was so impressed with the ability of the Fors Core to actually unmask the dime in this very difficult test and the fact that i believe that if Nokta reads these forums and i believe they do , that they can tweak the Fors Core to tone as well as ID which it does ID very rock solid.

From your responses it would seem you are being defensive of Nokta ,,, no need as i am not attacking Nokta or putting them down. If you truly read all the posts you would actually see that i am giving them an extreme amount of credit for the Fors Core and it is the best machine sub 2500 dollar range at unmasking. But as i just stated if they can tweak the machine to give tone to the dime which the machine clearly sees(or i would not get a ID of 81-83 with every sweep of the coil) they elevate this machine to a level that is out of this world.

Every where you read it says that they have done all that can be done with single Freq machines. Well if they can pull this off they definitely have something that FBS cannot begin to touch , at least with what is available right now.

 

[Monte]

As far as a real world situation i do not see why the masking setup is not practical, there is no reason to believe that it could not happen and it very likely happens.

I agree that it is very possible such a scenario exists, but I also believe that such challenging conditions can't be defeated only to produce a totally perfect or correct audio Tone ID response and visual Target ID read-out.

Tons of nails everywhere i hunt, and pull tabs while not as abundant as iron are still very plentiful.

I do a lot of urban Coin Hunting where pull tabs and iron nails exist, but the bulk of my detecting takes me to out-of-the-way locations [size=small](homesteads, stage stops, railroad depot sidings, pioneer and military encampments, military and Indian conflict sites, old barren ghost towns, etc.)[/size], and Relic Hunting these types of places for 47 years has presented me with unimaginable densities of iron nails, and even more challenging ferrous debris than that and practically never a modern aluminum pull tab. Other types of non-ferrous junk, but no tabs.

During this entire span of chasing relics, my preference has been to use no more Discrimination than only enough to reject common iron nails. That approach has helped my success rate a great deal, and with many newer models on the market, I search with even less Discrimination, listening to all the ferrous junk, but being able to audibly classify most of it using the Tone ID and visual Target ID responses.

I actually have not dug a plug in real life with this scenario most likely because detectors would never see the dime for it to be found in the real world. But it is very likely and probable that this scenario or something like it does in fact exist and i believe that there are actually worse case scenarios than this in real life.

I agree, agree and agree.


We seldom dig this type of plug because the desired target, the coin, is too deep and too masked to produce a hit. Yes, this and many other very challenging scenarios do exist, and I am with you in knowing that even worse masking situations are out there.

Most masking tests performed by most people now days are in the same plane or close to same plane.

Probably correct because those have been what we have encountered and dealt with in real life encounters, such as my Nail Board Performance Test. And I can assure you that many makes and models of detect6ors with a wide assortment of search coil sizes and types have been put-to-the-test on the NBPT and failed to provide any good response at all, or very few from eight directions of sweep to 'pass' such a test scenario challenge.

If i had reversed the setup and the dime had been the top target i am sure that most detectors from the 250 dollar range up would have no difficulty finding the dime.

I have used many other test set-ups that are very challenging, and most detectors don't leave us with a very good audio and/or visual target response. You might be correct that many detectors, low, mid and higher-cost models, might find the dime with a digable audio response, but some might not. Also, many wouldn't produce a desired, proper visual Target ID response, either.

Even visual targets don't always respond properly. In 1990 I was hunting my favorite ghost town with a good friend when I spotted a Shield Nickel on top of the ground. he was using a major brand detector, at that time, that featured visual Target ID. Even with his Discrimination level set at absolute minimum, he couldn't get an audio response from the Nickel, nor a decent visual Target ID indication. I was using a non-display detector, but my model had a Discrimination adjustment range that allowed me a lower setting, and at that minimum adjustment I got a very clean audio response.

So why didn't he get a visual or audio response on a Shield nicke4l that was in plain sight? After recovering the nickel I had spotted, I dug down and recovered a very rusted railroad spike at a depth of about 6" to 7", directly below the coin. Target Masking, even with a desired coin in plain view. I have had that happen many times to me when using a TID detector in very nasty iron littered sites.

My goal was to see if there exists a detector in the sub $2500 fbs range machine down that could pull the dime from the trash. And the answer is yes, the 2500 dollar machine with 6 in coil did see it , it was jumpy but obvious, and this machine would not tone either btw.

There are many variables that can cause an audio response or even a visual response that seem to be producing a desired response from a target in the area, but they can be caused by many factors such as the detector and settings and coil type used, and especially by the size, shape, position and alloy content of the targets that are causing the masking. Hot Rocks can cause it. Iron-based target can cause it.

Only thing that came close after that was the Fors Core which would give a rock solid ID every time if the tab and nail were masked out ,, but no tone, i believe that Nokta can fix this. If the machine can ID the dime perfectly why can't they make it tone as well? If they do they will jump even farther ahead of the competition in unmasking abilities than they already are. Only reason i buy and sell the machines is i cannot afford them all.

Yes, I am certain that the good folks at Nokta and Makro detectors keep up with a lot of posts on many forums, but I honestly don't think there is anything that can be done to get a detector to produce a proper audio and visual response to a deeper dime with shallower trash nearby,

I kept the relic over the Fors Core because from my testing i liked it even more than i did my Fors Core.

I really like the FORS CoRe and always will, but, like you, the FORS Relic provides me with the adjustment functions and field performance that I prefer, which is why the Relic is my #1 use detector.

One solution is to dig every pull tab and then re-sweep the area , which i do, especially in areas where i do not see many pull tabs.

You could search through an area and recover most of the pull tabs, but that would still be leaving the iron nails, and it would also leave the tabs that are partially masked so as to not produce an anticipated pull-tab response and they would be missed and still be out there to cause more target masking of desired objects. Those, and the iron nails, would still need to be recovered.

I have only been detecting 38 years so you have a few years on me. I would not even have posted this thread in the first place ,,,except that i was so impressed with the ability of the Fors Core to actually unmask the dime in this very difficult test and the fact that i believe that if Nokta reads these forums and i believe they do , that they can tweak the Fors Core to tone as well as ID which it does ID very rock solid.

Good test scenario to post so that others can learn from it. I agree that the FORS CoRe provides us with a very good audio response and is one of the best detectors for unmasking that we have ever seen, but I don't think there is any tweaking Nokta engineers can do in this case.

From your responses it would seem you are being defensive of Nokta ,,, no need as i am not attacking Nokta or putting them down.

I will 'defend' any make or model that provides me/us with top-quality build and functional performance afield in tough, challenging conditions. The FORS series models are some of the best detector I have ever used to handle unmasking. I am not being 'defensive' as I am being 'supportive' of what they are providing both the average Coin Hunter as well as any more Avid Detectorist.

If you truly read all the posts you would actually see that i am giving them an extreme amount of credit for the Fors Core and it is the best machine sub 2500 dollar range at unmasking. But as i just stated if they can tweak the machine to give tone to the dime which the machine clearly sees(or i would not get a ID of 81-83 with every sweep of the coil) they elevate this machine to a level that is out of this world.

I did read all of your posts as well as all of the responses they have generated.

Every where you read it says that they have done all that can be done with single Freq machines. Well if they can pull this off they definitely have something that FBS cannot begin to touch , at least with what is available right now.

I think they have, and I believe they will continue to do whatever they can in future models as well. I much prefer a single frequency operation to most multi-frequency detectors I have owned or used, but I know a good selectable frequency detector can bring us many new variables to deal with and enjoy..

Monte

 

[amberjack]

sorry to butt in but you know the good and bad part about detecting nobody knows what they left behind

AJ

 

[Trashfinder]

Monte at least this once i hope you are wrong on Nokta engineers being able to tweak out a tone on the fors core when it gives a great ID on a very tough masking situation! Or maybe in a future machine that can. Sigh ,,,, another detector to buy!

 

[amberjack]

AJ

 

[Richard-N-FL]

Hey trashfinder, I'm glad you think like I do. I've been searching for someone who has done this kind of 3d test. Have you had any other machines put through this test? Have you made any YouTube videos? The Etrac setup in " how to hunt in iron" didn't work?

 

[Sonnyd]

Very cool test!!! Got me wondering.
I'd also like to see a comparison of the core and relic side by side. Never used the core but the videos on it pushed me to buy the relic. Was already saving for the core and figured why not.
I've only noticed the opposite in the field with there being faint or mixed tones but sometimes no ID coming through.
Very interesting.

That's the way my Relic is. I can get.a pretty good tone, but no visual, so I figure it's deep. Sometimes I will get bot ID and tone, and then almost immediately lose ID, with the signal remaining strong. Drives me crazy if I let it, LOL

 

[Trashfinder]

Richard , i will set it up like mowerdog and give it a go and see what happens.

Sonnyd: Dig those tones! Two old guys i hunt with are doing that with their Racer 2's and making some nice finds, they are deep and just will not ID but sure does tone good!

 

[Richard-N-FL]

Ok... please let me know what happens.

 

[Sonnyd]

Richard , i will set it up like mowerdog and give it a go and see what happens.

Sonnyd: Dig those tones! Two old guys i hunt with are doing that with their Racer 2's and making some nice finds, they are deep and just will not ID but sure does tone good!

Thanks, I'm going to give it a try.... Thanks for all your work....