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finding gold with the Eq. Is it because it is a new machine?
- Thread starter sandnsea49
- Start date
basstrackerman
Well-known member
No no and no... Calabash I'm 51 and been detecting since I was 11. I do not recall ever seeing what I'm seeing with the equinox.
doc holiday232
New member
The BIG question-----where are all those fine gold chains??
sprchng
Well-known member
basstrackerman said:
You're right , there has never been this amount of hype before around a machine , especially when incorporated along with a "shortage" of machines to make the demand seen greater. I have always managed to dig plenty of nickels with other machines simply because I know that is where the gold falls. In a "clad" public setting if you are not digging 60 or 70 percent the number of quarters in nickels you simply are not looking hard enough because the quarters are being picked up easily and the harder to find nickels are constantly left behind.
Certainly a machine that runs on higher frequency should technically hit the nickels harder , and the NOX has that ability , but the perception that a 13 is a NOX nickel is what makes people suddenly start finding nickels they were simply too lazy to chase before. What is ironic now is they are leaving behind the nickels that run 12 to 15 VDIs(-13) , simply because they haven't dug one yet , and the gold items that fall in that range as well. Every time I have used the NOX I have found at least one above or below 13 ,,, but I dig them , just like I dig the good sounding targets down to about 6 hoping for good stuff.
Did the same thing with the Deus and found 5 or 6 gold rings in short order in 12 khz digging 40 to 60 numbers , recent drops right on top , no talent needed , no "special" machine , just diligence.
vlad
Well-known member
While TX power and the cleanness of the RX side are huge factors, so is the severity of the mineral matrix (and quality of ground filters+not all loops are equal.)
When mineral is neutral to low, frequency is less a factor. George Paine said the lowest frequencies as you approach 0, the ground has negligible effect.
The higher frequencies contain more energy and its easier to fill the loop's Q; I wonder if the very lowest range
of frequencies is pushed to the limit due to higher battery drain. (Nautilus uses 4X 9v on the 2B series @ 14kHz, but a 4B @ 4kHz uses 6X 9v to fill the Q.)
I have been in ground so bad that the 14/15 kHz units were lucky to hit 4" on a quarter, but units @ 2.75-5.5kHz showed a significant improvement (applies to wet salt too.)
Units known as gold detectors can do marvelous things on the tiniest items, but get in the surf and you can find little usable depth.
Extremes, always make things--interesting.
But you use what works best for you, in a given situation.
When mineral is neutral to low, frequency is less a factor. George Paine said the lowest frequencies as you approach 0, the ground has negligible effect.
The higher frequencies contain more energy and its easier to fill the loop's Q; I wonder if the very lowest range
of frequencies is pushed to the limit due to higher battery drain. (Nautilus uses 4X 9v on the 2B series @ 14kHz, but a 4B @ 4kHz uses 6X 9v to fill the Q.)
I have been in ground so bad that the 14/15 kHz units were lucky to hit 4" on a quarter, but units @ 2.75-5.5kHz showed a significant improvement (applies to wet salt too.)
Units known as gold detectors can do marvelous things on the tiniest items, but get in the surf and you can find little usable depth.
Extremes, always make things--interesting.
But you use what works best for you, in a given situation.
vlad
Well-known member
that I agree with. If you forego the i.d. and use the new unit as a beep and dig-you seem to find more.
A newbie with a low to medium priced unit goes into a hard hit area and pulls out nice goodies. Is it because he is better than we experienced users,
or his middle of the road unit is out preforming the high end detectors? I think not---the difference is attitude; he is getting more because he digs more
including, more trash. If we had more time we'd probably dig it all, but since that's not possible we defer to the absolute judgement of the detector, + or - the error factor.
The real discrimination is in our heads. Dig or not is the most important decision; the detector does not decide that, we do.
A newbie with a low to medium priced unit goes into a hard hit area and pulls out nice goodies. Is it because he is better than we experienced users,
or his middle of the road unit is out preforming the high end detectors? I think not---the difference is attitude; he is getting more because he digs more
including, more trash. If we had more time we'd probably dig it all, but since that's not possible we defer to the absolute judgement of the detector, + or - the error factor.
The real discrimination is in our heads. Dig or not is the most important decision; the detector does not decide that, we do.
vlad
Well-known member
How can the Ace 250 not be deep at 7.2khz; 2 things, fixed ground balance and bad ground mineral. The worse the mineral the bigger the phase shift and the bigger the depth loss.
George Payne on ground balance:
"All grounds have varying amounts of magnetic and conductive properties. Therefore, the ratio of the X or magnetic signal and R, the conductive signal, will vary from one location to another. However, the phase produced by this characteristic will always be negative relative to zero, the phase of pure ferrite.
From my experience most grounds produce a phase that falls somewhere between zero (ferrite) and a -5 degrees. Some highly magnetic soils can have a phase that is quite low, but it can never be zero. Once the phase exceeds several degrees the ground characteristics begin to fall into an area where it becomes more saline. This doesn't mean that its not magnetic. Its just that the R or conductive component of the ground becomes stronger in relation to the magnetic portion. Thus the phase becomes greater.
The manual ground adjustment works in this manner: When you position the “Ground Adjust” control to the phase of the target, in this case the ground, any up or down motion of the coil does not produce a corresponding change in the audio volume. For example, when you position the control to zero phase, and then move a piece of ferrite around near the coil, the audio volume will not change. In other words you have balanced out to the ferrite. However, if you now lower the coil to real ground the audio will increase in volume. Of course this indicates that you are not balanced to the ground. As you begin to turn the control counter clock wise the ground adjust control phase changes from zero to a more negative amount. Once you have reached the point of “ground balance” the control and ground phases match. Of course as the coil is moved to various locations the ground phase changes slightly and you must readjust the control for a neutral reaction. As you can see there is no one control phase position that matches every condition since the ground phase varies from one location to another.
The introduction of the Motion detector solved this problem.....sort of. In a Motion detector design you can calibrate the “fixed” ground adjust control phase to approximately +0.5 degrees and set the audio threshold for silent operation. If that is done the detector will appear not to respond to the ground. In reality it is responding. Its just that you don’t hear it since all ground reactions cause the audio to decrease in volume.
And since the audio is already silent you don’t hear anything. Remember I said that all real targets, which includes the ground, have a phase between zero and some negative value. The preset ground control phase of +0.5 degrees is in a location where no real targets ever exist. Therefore, you never have a condition where you are balanced to anything, least of all the ground. As you move the coil over the ground, the internal detector signals are continually being driven negative. Any weak positive target signal is easily over-ridden by the huge negative ground signal. Of course, if the target is close enough to the coil its positive signal can override the negative ground signal and you will hear the reaction in the audio. The greater the phase and strength of the negative ground signal the more it will mask the positive target signals. A manual ground balance design would avoid this since the operator can adjust the control for a (near) neutral reaction on the ground.
For fixed machines the phase error between the internal “ground preset balance” and the actual ground condition can be much more than “slight”. The internal preset is calibrated for +0.5 degrees. This is in an area where a real ground phase never occurs. The actual ground phase may be -2 or -3 degrees “negative“. That’s a huge difference, maybe 2.5 to 3.5 degrees. This much phase error will in effect cutoff several inches of detection depth."
Besides, you are not implying Garrett puts the same TX & RX components quality and power-wise as in the top-of- the line are you?
George Payne on ground balance:
"All grounds have varying amounts of magnetic and conductive properties. Therefore, the ratio of the X or magnetic signal and R, the conductive signal, will vary from one location to another. However, the phase produced by this characteristic will always be negative relative to zero, the phase of pure ferrite.
From my experience most grounds produce a phase that falls somewhere between zero (ferrite) and a -5 degrees. Some highly magnetic soils can have a phase that is quite low, but it can never be zero. Once the phase exceeds several degrees the ground characteristics begin to fall into an area where it becomes more saline. This doesn't mean that its not magnetic. Its just that the R or conductive component of the ground becomes stronger in relation to the magnetic portion. Thus the phase becomes greater.
The manual ground adjustment works in this manner: When you position the “Ground Adjust” control to the phase of the target, in this case the ground, any up or down motion of the coil does not produce a corresponding change in the audio volume. For example, when you position the control to zero phase, and then move a piece of ferrite around near the coil, the audio volume will not change. In other words you have balanced out to the ferrite. However, if you now lower the coil to real ground the audio will increase in volume. Of course this indicates that you are not balanced to the ground. As you begin to turn the control counter clock wise the ground adjust control phase changes from zero to a more negative amount. Once you have reached the point of “ground balance” the control and ground phases match. Of course as the coil is moved to various locations the ground phase changes slightly and you must readjust the control for a neutral reaction. As you can see there is no one control phase position that matches every condition since the ground phase varies from one location to another.
The introduction of the Motion detector solved this problem.....sort of. In a Motion detector design you can calibrate the “fixed” ground adjust control phase to approximately +0.5 degrees and set the audio threshold for silent operation. If that is done the detector will appear not to respond to the ground. In reality it is responding. Its just that you don’t hear it since all ground reactions cause the audio to decrease in volume.
And since the audio is already silent you don’t hear anything. Remember I said that all real targets, which includes the ground, have a phase between zero and some negative value. The preset ground control phase of +0.5 degrees is in a location where no real targets ever exist. Therefore, you never have a condition where you are balanced to anything, least of all the ground. As you move the coil over the ground, the internal detector signals are continually being driven negative. Any weak positive target signal is easily over-ridden by the huge negative ground signal. Of course, if the target is close enough to the coil its positive signal can override the negative ground signal and you will hear the reaction in the audio. The greater the phase and strength of the negative ground signal the more it will mask the positive target signals. A manual ground balance design would avoid this since the operator can adjust the control for a (near) neutral reaction on the ground.
For fixed machines the phase error between the internal “ground preset balance” and the actual ground condition can be much more than “slight”. The internal preset is calibrated for +0.5 degrees. This is in an area where a real ground phase never occurs. The actual ground phase may be -2 or -3 degrees “negative“. That’s a huge difference, maybe 2.5 to 3.5 degrees. This much phase error will in effect cutoff several inches of detection depth."
Besides, you are not implying Garrett puts the same TX & RX components quality and power-wise as in the top-of- the line are you?
Good point. Whenever a new machine enters the market, we hobbyists LOVE to go try it out, to compare to our existing arsenals. We all want to have the "best mousetrap" after all. And sure enough: Show & tell posts roll in with spectacular finds being shown. The obvious take-away-conclusion is meant to be "this new machine is the cat's meow".
But you're right: It can often time simply be the subconscious "trying harder" or "digging all to learn it", etc...
For example: My buddy took his nox 800 out, on one of his maiden voyages to turf, and found a nice fat gold ring ! His obvious conclusion is: "This machine is awesome!" But upon further scrutiny: the ring was in mid-range (square-tab-ish range ?) . And not necessarily deep. Thus how does he know that ANY machine, if you simply turn down the disc. knob, and head out to junky urban parks, and dig enough signals, that : Sure, you will eventually dig a nice gold ring.
Or put another way: He'd have to try it with other machines, to see if they too equally get the flagged signal. And no, I don't believe the Nox is going to have any better ability to tell a gold ring apart from commensurate aluminum objects. So that only leaves masking , depth, etc... issues. And the only way to discern if it's the machine, versus random eventual chance and odds, is to flag the signals for various machines to swing over.
But you're right: It can often time simply be the subconscious "trying harder" or "digging all to learn it", etc...
For example: My buddy took his nox 800 out, on one of his maiden voyages to turf, and found a nice fat gold ring ! His obvious conclusion is: "This machine is awesome!" But upon further scrutiny: the ring was in mid-range (square-tab-ish range ?) . And not necessarily deep. Thus how does he know that ANY machine, if you simply turn down the disc. knob, and head out to junky urban parks, and dig enough signals, that : Sure, you will eventually dig a nice gold ring.
Or put another way: He'd have to try it with other machines, to see if they too equally get the flagged signal. And no, I don't believe the Nox is going to have any better ability to tell a gold ring apart from commensurate aluminum objects. So that only leaves masking , depth, etc... issues. And the only way to discern if it's the machine, versus random eventual chance and odds, is to flag the signals for various machines to swing over.
Law Of Reciprocity
Metal detector "A" will find 90%what metal detector "B" found, and metal detector "B" can find 90% of what metal detector "A" found. The 10% difference = extrinsic/intrinsic affects & variations ie - frequency, coil type/size, mineralization in soil, EMI just to name some. There are many.
So, depending on a units design, most detectors will find most of the same targets.....well about least 90% of them.
There has never been a metal detector available to detect 100% of the targets. The closest in my observation, has been a pulse induction metal detector, however, it has many negatives using it. (so far)
Metal detector "A" will find 90%what metal detector "B" found, and metal detector "B" can find 90% of what metal detector "A" found. The 10% difference = extrinsic/intrinsic affects & variations ie - frequency, coil type/size, mineralization in soil, EMI just to name some. There are many.
So, depending on a units design, most detectors will find most of the same targets.....well about least 90% of them.
There has never been a metal detector available to detect 100% of the targets. The closest in my observation, has been a pulse induction metal detector, however, it has many negatives using it. (so far)
Good post. I would add that the term "hear" can be expanded upon. While it may be true that 2 different machines can "hear" the same flagged target, yet : Another component is: how well can the machine be telling the user information about the target ? Ie.: TID .
There are machines which will "hear" targets WITH ROOM TO SPARE, all the time. However, when they move over 2 ft. one way, or 2 ft. another way, they are likewise getting reams of signals that sound exactly the same. Utterly no differentiation. Or worse yet, get fooled by bent deep nails, struggle to determine one-way versus two-way signals, etc....
Hence just because 2 different machines can "hear" the same signal: That's only half the battle. Maybe not when someone's in a dig-all relicky environment type hunt. But if you're in junky turf, then a bit of selectivity or cherry-picking is par-for-the-course.
There are machines which will "hear" targets WITH ROOM TO SPARE, all the time. However, when they move over 2 ft. one way, or 2 ft. another way, they are likewise getting reams of signals that sound exactly the same. Utterly no differentiation. Or worse yet, get fooled by bent deep nails, struggle to determine one-way versus two-way signals, etc....
Hence just because 2 different machines can "hear" the same signal: That's only half the battle. Maybe not when someone's in a dig-all relicky environment type hunt. But if you're in junky turf, then a bit of selectivity or cherry-picking is par-for-the-course.