Equinox iron trick?

[Tom_in_CA]

gentlemen, If I could step in here to be see "each of yours sides" :

Yes: an air test won't exactly mimic in-ground test (nor will an "open un-filled" hole mimic in-ground/covered). So I can see Greg's point.

But no: simply filling in the hole will ALSO not "mimic an in-ground" test either. So I can see tyberoz point. Reason is: that ground is a) still disturbed . Not packed samely as surrounding ground. And b) has not had time to develop a halo. So no matter WHAT you do, it's going to be nearly impossible to mimic a true 100 yr. in-the-ground test.

For example: On the wet salt beach, whenever I do machine depth testing, I make sure to do it right at the ebbing surf zone. So that I can let the rolling surf come up and cover, and uniformly pack my spot ("halos" a non-issue when doing wet-beach-moving sand hunting). In this way, the sand will immediately mimic the 'pack' of the surrounding sand.

Also: I agree with Tyberoz that an air test is NOT altogether useless. While it's true that in-ground can vary, yet if ANY machine can get a dime or quarter sized target to 13" in what-is-effectively an air-test, then at least it has a FIGHTING CHANCE to replicate that in the ground. If you COULDN'T get a coin to air test at 13", then seems-to-me you'll fare no better in the ground.

 

[lytle78]

Jalo - much discussed topic and the existence and effect on detection of targets is far from being a settled fact - much less “detecting 101”. Here’s what Dave Johnson wrote aboit the subject a while back

http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/davejohnson/HaloEffect.pdf

 

[Tom_in_CA]

lytle78, thanx for the link. This part of Dave's writings seems to agree with what I'd mused:

" Soil disturbance
I believe that many reports of “halo effect” are actually a misinterpretation of soil disturbance. When an object is buried, the act of digging and refilling the hole creates a localized soil anomaly which causes the detected signal to either add to or subtract from the signal from the metal object. What actually happens depends on the kind of soil and the details of how the detector processes signals, but most often the detectability of the target is reduced. Over time the disturbed soil settles and becomes mixed with
surrounding soil by earthworm activity etc. such that the anomaly is gradually erased. "

So even filling in the whole on the Ox video, would not have made it equivalent to an un-dug target. No as to whether it's an improvement over an air test can be debated, haha

 

[Mr. Carolina]

So my suggestion is--------- bury a gold ring and show me the depth. No halo with gold I think.

 

[dbado1]

So my suggestion is--------- bury a gold ring and show me the depth. No halo with gold I think.

Re-read what Dave Johnson said. It's about soil disturbance. Not what's buried.

 

[Flbchbm]

Excellent article, thanks for the link Lytle78.

So the premise is that we are being intentionally misled about the capabilities of this detector. That is what deception is, intentional, planned. Why on God's green earth would a company with the reputation of Minelab do anything intentionally that would affect their brand negatively? Reputations are far easier to damage than they are to repair. Ask Whites! Take a breath and think about this for a few minutes. Do you honestly believe Minelab is that stupid? I do not. They would lose far more than they would gain.

Yes, there a ton of unanswered questions about this detector. Information is very sparse and anything related to this detector is being microscopicly analyzed (and over analyzed). No doubt the introduction timing was about freezing some consumer purchasing, which is actually pretty smart on their part. I know it made me pull back on some purchase plans. However, all this over analysis is causing people to lose their minds. Since the final design and capabilities of this detector has yet to be determined, it is not reasonable to expect the company to allow the testers to post videos of the capabilities of the detector. It is also not reasonable to believe that the company planned for the iron test and the open-hole test as a way of fooling people into believing the detector has superior capabilities. It is much more likely that these tests were put together on the fly by the people that performed them. Bottom line is, just like with any other new detector, we will have to wait until they have a finalized version before they will release information about the capabilities of the detector. Until then, some of us need to increase our medication!

 

[Blank Planet]

i am selling not buying have more than enough pulltab machines

its a vlf that cant tell me if its gold or aluminium, what else do i need to know?

Old tech that's all it is in a new case.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....Old tech that's all it is in a new case.

I haven't read a single musing that it would tell aluminum apart from gold. In that sense, sure: it's old tech.

I currently carry around 2 machines to accomplish my variety of hunting. And I should technically be carrying 3. So just hoping this solves those 3 venues.

 

[Dale(Ia)]

Excellent article, thanks for the link Lytle78.

So the premise is that we are being intentionally misled about the capabilities of this detector. That is what deception is, intentional, planned. Why on God's green earth would a company with the reputation of Minelab do anything intentionally that would affect their brand negatively? Reputations are far easier to damage than they are to repair. Ask Whites! Take a breath and think about this for a few minutes. Do you honestly believe Minelab is that stupid? I do not. They would lose far more than they would gain.

Yes, there a ton of unanswered questions about this detector. Information is very sparse and anything related to this detector is being microscopicly analyzed (and over analyzed). No doubt the introduction timing was about freezing some consumer purchasing, which is actually pretty smart on their part. I know it made me pull back on some purchase plans. However, all this over analysis is causing people to lose their minds. Since the final design and capabilities of this detector has yet to be determined, it is not reasonable to expect the company to allow the testers to post videos of the capabilities of the detector. It is also not reasonable to believe that the company planned for the iron test and the open-hole test as a way of fooling people into believing the detector has superior capabilities. It is much more likely that these tests were put together on the fly by the people that performed them. Bottom line is, just like with any other new detector, we will have to wait until they have a finalized version before they will release information about the capabilities of the detector. Until then, some of us need to increase our medication!

Here! Here! Excellent ,sensible, post !!

Iowa Dale

 

[Tyber0z]

Excellent article, thanks for the link Lytle78.

So the premise is that we are being intentionally misled about the capabilities of this detector. That is what deception is, intentional, planned. Why on God's green earth would a company with the reputation of Minelab do anything intentionally that would affect their brand negatively? Reputations are far easier to damage than they are to repair. Ask Whites! Take a breath and think about this for a few minutes. Do you honestly believe Minelab is that stupid? I do not. They would lose far more than they would gain.

Yes, there a ton of unanswered questions about this detector. Information is very sparse and anything related to this detector is being microscopicly analyzed (and over analyzed). No doubt the introduction timing was about freezing some consumer purchasing, which is actually pretty smart on their part. I know it made me pull back on some purchase plans. However, all this over analysis is causing people to lose their minds. Since the final design and capabilities of this detector has yet to be determined, it is not reasonable to expect the company to allow the testers to post videos of the capabilities of the detector. It is also not reasonable to believe that the company planned for the iron test and the open-hole test as a way of fooling people into believing the detector has superior capabilities. It is much more likely that these tests were put together on the fly by the people that performed them. Bottom line is, just like with any other new detector, we will have to wait until they have a finalized version before they will release information about the capabilities of the detector. Until then, some of us need to increase our medication!

We have a toxin in our culture which compels people to look for the conspiracy theory, or the evil plot, or the deceit, even if no such thing exists. The news plays into it and the internet fuels the compulsion even more. Likeminded theorists get together and validate each other's bizarre fairy tales. The Nox was announced EIGHT days ago and people are already posting on multiple forums that there's "deception", "sleight-of-hand", "trickery", or some kind of weird plot by Minelab to screw us out of our money. It's so disgusting to me that instead of just saying "I think the test was flawed" or "I'd like to see this test", people suggest there's a conspiracy or that the testers and company are withholding.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tyberoz, they're just playing devil's advocate to get conversation going .

 

[Tyber0z]

Maybe so.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Tyberoz, they're just playing devil's advocate to get conversation going .

No, they're not.

 

[dbado1]

Tyberoz, they're just playing devil's advocate to get conversation going .

No, they're not.

Agreed. As was stated in a previous post...there are people that believe that everyone is out to trick or screw them. Can't fix them. It's just who they are. In my experience, they end up screwing themselves. They are always " late to the party" because they are overly cautious. The " I'm gonna wait 12 months before I purchase one" crowd is always, dare I say it, 12 months behind. It applies to all aspects of their lives. I have a brother who is like this so I know the trait well. Instead of looking for the positive reasons that the product may enhance their lives now, they look for any negatives, real or imagined, (and freely spread the negativity to all who will listen) with the goal of prolonging the decision. When they finally do make the decision to purchase they act like a child who has made his first potty in the toilet and expect everyone to be very excited for them ( 12 months late). They are not playing devil's advocate.

Dean

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tyberoz, they're just playing devil's advocate to get conversation going .

No, they're not.

Agreed. As was stated in a previous post...there are people that believe that everyone is out to trick or screw them..

Ok, granted. There are people "into conspiracy theories". Ok, so what ? It doesn't mean they "hate you personally " ? You can toy with them and spar intellectually to show them the "more plausible explanations". Maybe they'll wake up. But at no time are they "reason to bow out of forum discussion" or " reason to get mad", etc..... It's all just forum chit-chat.

 

[dbado1]

Tyberoz, they're just playing devil's advocate to get conversation going .

No, they're not.

Agreed. As was stated in a previous post...there are people that believe that everyone is out to trick or screw them..

Ok, granted. There are people "into conspiracy theories". Ok, so what ? It doesn't mean they "hate you personally " ? You can toy with them and spar intellectually to show them the "more plausible explanations". Maybe they'll wake up. But at no time are they "reason to bow out of forum discussion" or " reason to get mad", etc..... It's all just forum chit-chat.

Agreed, Tom. Who's mad or bowing out? I was making an observation based upon my personal experience with such people.
Unlike you, I don't try to wake them up any more. They are who they are and will always be that way... and that's o.k..

Dean

 

["Dr.Tones"]

Just an FYI. That little speed test video I made wasn't supposed to include iron. That rusty iron was a piece that I found two days before while making the test pits. I chucked it to the side and during that test another manufacturer brought it over and placed it. That's why you hear the crowd "oooooh!!!!". The test was only supposed to show you the recovery speed.

 

[laplander]

Thanks Mate!

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

You better connect your coil to an oscilloscope and have a look at the receive winding while its over that long piece of iron, it will be ugly. This is no parlor trick, that a detector can have its receive winding loaded like that with big iron and still hit on the coins that well, I guarantee you the receive winding was loaded huge with iron signal. You can tape a silver quarter to your coil on a motion detector and go detect with it. It won't give a signal on the silver quarter because its not in motion relative to the coil, but its loading up the receive winding nonetheless. Switch to non motion pinpoint mode it will howl like a stuck pig.

Which brings us to what the heck does a balanced coil even mean. Well its the path to extreme depth but that's another discussion. Balanced coils, DD, coplanar concentric, etc. precisely position the coil windings such that the coil is balanced, which means while the TX (Transmit) winding is blasting out a signal none of this transmitted signal is picked up by the RX (receive) winding. If you put your oscilloscope on RX if the coil is balanced it will read zero, flat line, no signal from TX.

If something disturbs this delectate balance a signal is picked up on RX and your detector responds. On a motion machine if you then stop moving the coil, the coil is not moving relative to the target, both stationary, after the initial response from the detector it settles down and returns to threshold, but RX remains loaded up with that signal.

I once purchased an aftermarket coil and it seemed to be performing poorly on depth. So I put this coil on my scope and found it was out of balance from the factory, and RX was loaded with some TX signal. How to bring a coil like that back in balance is again another discussion. There are also some tricks during coil construction used to precisely balance them, its a tricky process.

Anyway I would not dismiss the coins along the iron bar video as meaningless, just saying.

 

[sgoss66]

Charles,

Do YOU know how to bring an "out of balance" coil back into balance? Is that something you personally know how to do?

Steve