Doubts over Manticore 50% extra power.

[laplander]

Wow. Looks like we gots a good whizzin match goin on here...

New technology/Machines bring out the best and worst in people. I am sure when the e trac and XLT came out there were lots of pooh whoo'rs out there as well. Time moves on for some LOL

 

[sgoss66]

There is too much not knowing and "too much assuming going on out there" (to paraphrase Sen Howell Heflin)
The frequencies do not get equal power from the batteries because they do not need it to fill the Q of the loop for a particular frequency. Filling the Q means there is a lower rate of energy loss in a loop which is an inductor that stores energy in a magnetic field when electric current flows through it. 40 kHf is very high energy and fills the loop with little battery power, but 2.5 kHz is very low energy and takes a great deal of battery power. And there are many things you do not know and to start with: each frequency is not transmitted at 1/3 the power of the total because each frequency draws a different amount of power to fill the Q, and the higher frequency have much more energy and its easier to reach a specific transmit point, with less battery drain. The lowest frequencies are least affected by wet salt or iron mineral, but do not respond well to small targets or low conductors and the higher frequencies are hindered by mineral and salt but react strongly to small targets and low conductors. I will quote Dave Johnson again:"Getting extra depth out of a VLF, multifrequency, or PI machine is very difficult, because these machines follow an inverse 6th power law relationship between signal voltage and depth. If everything else is maintained equal, doubling the depth requires 64 times as much signal. If this is done by increasing transmitter power, doubling depth requires 4,096 times as much battery drain. Are you willing to tote a car battery around?

Vlad --

Thanks for all of the great information!

However, I think you missed my point. I am NOT an electrical engineer, and don't claim to be one. All I was saying was that the assumptions Merrill was making were far too narrow; there were many other possibilities as to what could be going on -- such that Minelab was NOT lying, but instead Merrill's understanding of the situation was flawed. I simply made up a scenario, that was "possible," that could show one way that Merrill's assumptions could be wrong. But in NO way was I claiming that what I hypothesized, was actually how things worked inside the Manticore, and I said so several times in the post. I was illustrating a POINT, not describing how the Manticore actually works.

Thanks!

Steve

 

[silvercoinboy]

BECAUSE something is on youtube does not make it true. Nobody KNOWS the transmit power figures of metal detectors because they are not published and never have been, and Pulse detectors not by an exclusion in law but by how they operate (shutting on/off many times a second which allows battery life to last longer) are much more powerful than VLFS by a factor of 10 to 20X. Metal detectors are classified as low power transmitters. You need to have a very healthy skepticism on articles that are often clickbait looking to be moneytized. I see videos that Jim Morrison & Janis Joplin are living together in Paris, Elvis is living with some Alien from who knows where, and Hitler died in Argentina at age 96 having escaped Germany in 1945. Do you believe them? I do NOT even click on such trash, and I do NOT click on articles like you described for the same reason and I've been detecting for 51 years and learned from from people that often made detectors. (And when I look in the mirror I do not see someone gullible looking back at me.)

That's where Elvis went! Now we know

 

[vlad]

Vlad --

Thanks for all of the great information!

However, I think you missed my point. I am NOT an electrical engineer, and don't claim to be one. All I was saying was that the assumptions Merrill was making were far too narrow; there were many other possibilities as to what could be going on -- such that Minelab was NOT lying, but instead Merrill's understanding of the situation was flawed. I simply made up a scenario, that was "possible," that could show one way that Merrill's assumptions could be wrong. But in NO way was I claiming that what I hypothesized, was actually how things worked inside the Manticore, and I said so several times in the post. I was illustrating a POINT, not describing how the Manticore actually works.

Thanks!

Steve

Some possibilities and assumptions are not valid because that is not how a multi frequency works: the amount of power is not divided up equally as I explained. It is always unequal. The closest you would get is if there were 2 frequencies and one was 4kHz and the other was 5kHz, but what would be the point? Go to the Fisher site and contact Dave Johnson, John Gardiner or Jorge Anton Saad. Or contact Tom Dankowski at his site, he is a NASA engineer and he helped design the CZ-70 Pro and the 3D. Or Troy Galloway at his Shadow X-5 site or call him: he is in the Dallas area and is the nicest guy in the world (an old CIA man in Vietnam.) Also Vaughan Garrett at Garrett Ele. ,And there is Ty Brook in Georgia who wrote the Tech Talk Column for WET for many years. I have misplaced George Payne's email and phone number. Most I have known for many years and all would be happy to talk to you. Or call ML.

 

[vlad]

It was just so unique.
Some of the hotrods guys built of them were just different.

This is a list of radiated unintended power limits.
Is that correct ?
This list goes into the GHz.
I believe the device mentioned is the device accepted or regulated in that band ?

In other words. Metal detectors are not specifically regulated. Except for spurious unintentional radiated energy levels.
And in those frequencie bands it's 10 watts ???
https://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet63/oet63rev.pdf

It was just so unique.
Some of the hotrods guys built of them were just different.

This is a list of radiated unintended power limits.
Is that correct ?
This list goes into the GHz.
I believe the device mentioned is the device accepted or regulated in that band ?

In other words. Metal detectors are not specifically regulated. Except for spurious unintentional radiated energy levels.
And in those frequencie bands it's 10 watts ???
https://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet63/oet63rev.pdf

 

[Odanscoils]

So am I correct in saying the detectors could actually go to 10 watts ?

 

[vlad]

So am I correct in saying the detectors could actually go to 10 watts ?

I would think you are.

 

[BigTony]

I am not taking sides here, I am only seeking information.
In the original video of the launch in Europe of the Manti, didn’t he say it had two batteries Inside? Or was my hearing aids acting up?
Tony

 

[vlad]

Vlad my friend I was referring to a hand full of people {you tubers, testers etc..} who quite obviously didn't buy their own machines. That said I am not selling for anyone. With your archaic attitude they {manufacturers} won't come looking for you. I will agree vlf machines have basically seen their depth limit, but that is not what's going on here. Processing is where it's at AKA target separation. There is a lot to be learned here. JMO
HH Jeff

Myself, Bill Ladd and some others I know of got units to field test but none of us were given the detectors: I cannot speak about other people outside of us. (And Bill Ladd who is a dear friend had a real firecracker relationship with FT/Fisher in the last 2 years of association.) We all paid for the detectors and it was usually what a dealer paid a distributor or a little less. I was dealing then and if it was Compass or Frank Ball at D-Tex it was a very good deal. When Eric Foster sent two Gold Scan-1 prototypes to the US to be tested I got one and ran it for 2 months in the hard mineral of Tennessee,I was NOT given the option of buying it and mailed it back: the other tester in Colorado disappeared with his never to be seen again. (I WISH someone would give me a working PRG) lol I made a joking comment on the Equinox Forum right after they first came out that if they wanted to impress and influence people, they should give one to Guvnor (he had a CTX and who knows what else) who OWNS Findmall, They blew up. I think they both wrote and called him, about one of his admin people trying to get him a free detector. And he told them that I did not admin or moderate ML and they knew it because ML chose their own people and I ran other forums none associated with any ML Forums. But you can believe HE gave me a phone call: he knew it was a joke but said not to make any more on the EQ Forum.
Not too sure about your comment about archaic: most of the ways that can be taken are negative, but I am not fashionable because I made it through 'Nam and things were deadly, the worse for wear and retired from the army and am almost 70 and a little younger than my good friend Richard Robinson. We both make it day to day.;
Do you still have the literature on all the old detectors?

 

[sgoss66]

Some possibilities and assumptions are not valid because that is not how a multi frequency works: the amount of power is not divided up equally as I explained. It is always unequal. The closest you would get is if there were 2 frequencies and one was 4kHz and the other was 5kHz, but what would be the point? Go to the Fisher site and contact Dave Johnson, John Gardiner or Jorge Anton Saad. Or contact Tom Dankowski at his site, he is a NASA engineer and he helped design the CZ-70 Pro and the 3D. Or Troy Galloway at his Shadow X-5 site or call him: he is in the Dallas area and is the nicest guy in the world (an old CIA man in Vietnam.) Also Vaughan Garrett at Garrett Ele. ,And there is Ty Brook in Georgia who wrote the Tech Talk Column for WET for many years. I have misplaced George Payne's email and phone number. Most I have known for many years and all would be happy to talk to you. Or call ML.

Vlad,

You are totally not getting my point. Perhaps what I was trying to illustrate in my original post did not come across well. You took what I was saying LITERALLY. I made it clear that I was totally shooting from the hip, just to make a point. And my ONLY point in doing so was to try to show that it was way too simplistic for Merrill to look at a 1W specifcation, on the Manticore, see that both the EQX and MC have a specification that says "1W," and then conclude "therefore, there's no way that there is 50% more power going to the coil in the Manticore, since both say 1 Watt." That whole explanation I dreamed up off the top of my head, was SIMPLY to say that there are LOTS of possible ways that Merrill's assumption was too simplistic, and likely to be wrong...and thus probably not a good idea to say "Minelab lied."

My "description" was NOT to be taken as though I was actually commenting on how the Manticore ACTUALLY FUNTIONS. All I did was dream up an entirely speculative possibility as to how Merrill's assumption could be wrong...but I think I stated very clearly that I was completely speculating, and that my "speculation" was likely NOT the way things actually work. It was only "conjured up" to show that Merrill was being too simplistic in his "no way is this possible" statements. I was only trying to illustrate that there ARE other possibilities as to how things might be, that none of us -- who are not electrical engineers -- would know...

I did not intend for you, or anyone else, to assume that I was actually describing HOW a multi-frequency machine works; I was only trying to say that there are other possible explanations for "50% more power" that those of us who are not electrical engineers would likely not be aware of -- that it is certainly NOT as simple as "look, both say 1 Watt...therefore Minelab lied."

Steve

 

[laplander]

Myself, Bill Ladd and some others I know of got units to field test but none of us were given the detectors: I cannot speak about other people outside of us. (And Bill Ladd who is a dear friend had a real firecracker relationship with FT/Fisher in the last 2 years of association.) We all paid for the detectors and it was usually what a dealer paid a distributor or a little less. I was dealing then and if it was Compass or Frank Ball at D-Tex it was a very good deal. When Eric Foster sent two Gold Scan-1 prototypes to the US to be tested I got one and ran it for 2 months in the hard mineral of Tennessee,I was NOT given the option of buying it and mailed it back: the other tester in Colorado disappeared with his never to be seen again. (I WISH someone would give me a working PRG) lol I made a joking comment on the Equinox Forum right after they first came out that if they wanted to impress and influence people, they should give one to Guvnor (he had a CTX and who knows what else) who OWNS Findmall, They blew up. I think they both wrote and called him, about one of his admin people trying to get him a free detector. And he told them that I did not admin or moderate ML and they knew it because ML chose their own people and I ran other forums none associated with any ML Forums. But you can believe HE gave me a phone call: he knew it was a joke but said not to make any more on the EQ Forum.
Not too sure about your comment about archaic: most of the ways that can be taken are negative, but I am not fashionable because I made it through 'Nam and things were deadly, the worse for wear and retired from the army and am almost 70 and a little younger than my good friend Richard Robinson. We both make it day to day.;
Do you still have the literature on all the old detectors?

I am a little old fashioned myself Vlad, not a you tuber LOL So nothing negative intended, just things change and we have to think outside the box. I personally love the challenge of starting new detectors if you haven't noticed so that makes me a little different.
Thanks for your service.

 

[BigTony]

I am not taking sides here, I am only seeking information.
In the original video of the launch in Europe of the Manti, didn’t he say it had two batteries Inside? Or was my hearing aids acting up?
Tony

I went back and re watched several videos of the Manticore release. Mark Lawrie, chief engineer states there is more battery power inside the handle but it takes up the same amount of space. That together with improved coil windings (maybe more of them) and the new analysis (software, I guess) all work to put more power in the ground to help folks in determining what to dig. Then again I wear hearing aids in both ears and might have gotten this explanation wrong.
Tony

 

[vlad]

Vlad,

You are totally not getting my point. Perhaps what I was trying to illustrate in my original post did not come across well. You took what I was saying LITERALLY. I made it clear that I was totally shooting from the hip, just to make a point. And my ONLY point in doing so was to try to show that it was way too simplistic for Merrill to look at a 1W specifcation, on the Manticore, see that both the EQX and MC have a specification that says "1W," and then conclude "therefore, there's no way that there is 50% more power going to the coil in the Manticore, since both say 1 Watt." That whole explanation I dreamed up off the top of my head, was SIMPLY to say that there are LOTS of possible ways that Merrill's assumption was too simplistic, and likely to be wrong...and thus probably not a good idea to say "Minelab lied."

My "description" was NOT to be taken as though I was actually commenting on how the Manticore ACTUALLY FUNTIONS. All I did was dream up an entirely speculative possibility as to how Merrill's assumption could be wrong...but I think I stated very clearly that I was completely speculating, and that my "speculation" was likely NOT the way things actually work. It was only "conjured up" to show that Merrill was being too simplistic in his "no way is this possible" statements. I was only trying to illustrate that there ARE other possibilities as to how things might be, that none of us -- who are not electrical engineers -- would know...

I did not intend for you, or anyone else, to assume that I was actually describing HOW a multi-frequency machine works; I was only trying to say that there are other possible explanations for "50% more power" that those of us who are not electrical engineers would likely not be aware of -- that it is certainly NOT as simple as "look, both say 1 Watt...therefore Minelab lied."

Steve

For your assumption to work to it must be real world to make any kind of sense, not what if. Metal detectors are straight forward devices that work "in a certain way" and that deserves to be looked at literally. In the same fashion as reformatting a computer, giving a car a tune up, or taking an M-249 apart and putting it back together. If some one said I pull the engine to change the plugs the consensus would be are you insane? I would never speak figuratively, metaphorically symbolically about doing those things. They deserve objective, reliable. supportable (literal) words. What it sounds like you are trying to do is bring a type of relativism in by stating I do not know what I am am talking about, WE get that. Conjured......magic works better than that explanation. Next time just state simply Merrill was wrong, or ML did not lie because all the word salad is wasted effort and does nothing in support of your case, (If you were in Moot Court your own team would run you out)
Actually your speculation is a hypothesis, and you need to test it to see if it is true.

 

[vlad]

For your assumption to work to it must be real world to make any kind of sense, not what if. Metal detectors are straight forward devices that work "in a certain way" and that deserves to be looked at literally. In the same fashion as reformatting a computer, giving a car a tune up, or taking an M-249 apart and putting it back together. If some one said I pull the engine to change the plugs the consensus would be are you insane? I would never speak figuratively, metaphorically symbolically about doing those things. They deserve objective, reliable. supportable (literal) words. What it sounds like you are trying to do is bring a type of relativism in by stating I do not know what I am am talking about, WE get that. Conjured......magic works better than that explanation. Next time just state simply Merrill was wrong, or ML did not lie because all the word salad is wasted effort and does nothing in support of your case, (If you were in Moot Court your own team would run you out)
Actually your speculation is a hypothesis, and you need to test it to see if it is true.

From a legal standpoint I tend to believe ML on the figure. Its too easy to grab an attorney and some former ML engineers in a law suit friendly country and hit them with a suit. It will never go to court if true
but I am sure they advertise that number for a good reason.

 

[laplander]

Myself, Bill Ladd and some others I know of got units to field test but none of us were given the detectors: I cannot speak about other people outside of us. (And Bill Ladd who is a dear friend had a real firecracker relationship with FT/Fisher in the last 2 years of association.) We all paid for the detectors and it was usually what a dealer paid a distributor or a little less. I was dealing then and if it was Compass or Frank Ball at D-Tex it was a very good deal. When Eric Foster sent two Gold Scan-1 prototypes to the US to be tested I got one and ran it for 2 months in the hard mineral of Tennessee,I was NOT given the option of buying it and mailed it back: the other tester in Colorado disappeared with his never to be seen again. (I WISH someone would give me a working PRG) lol I made a joking comment on the Equinox Forum right after they first came out that if they wanted to impress and influence people, they should give one to Guvnor (he had a CTX and who knows what else) who OWNS Findmall, They blew up. I think they both wrote and called him, about one of his admin people trying to get him a free detector. And he told them that I did not admin or moderate ML and they knew it because ML chose their own people and I ran other forums none associated with any ML Forums. But you can believe HE gave me a phone call: he knew it was a joke but said not to make any more on the EQ Forum.
Not too sure about your comment about archaic: most of the ways that can be taken are negative, but I am not fashionable because I made it through 'Nam and things were deadly, the worse for wear and retired from the army and am almost 70 and a little younger than my good friend Richard Robinson. We both make it day to day.;
Do you still have the literature on all the old detectors?

Bill Ladd? Is he still hunting? He used to hunt with a friend of mine Beau in the Boston area. Maybe you have hunted with him as well. He is retired Military.

 

[vlad]

I went back and re watched several videos of the Manticore release. Mark Lawrie, chief engineer states there is more battery power inside the handle but it takes up the same amount of space. That together with improved coil windings (maybe more of them) and the new analysis (software, I guess) all work to put more power in the ground to help folks in determining what to dig. Then again I wear hearing aids in both ears and might have gotten this explanation wrong.
Tony

Improved coil windings does not mean more windings: that is determined by the frequency. When it comes to batteries there are rechargable AA's that are 300 mA and there are 3700 mA, and I'm sure there are varieties with other batteries. In the Loop what kind of caps are used for the Transmit tank capacitor. Does ML use Litz wire in the coil?

 

[vlad]

Bill Ladd? Is he still hunting? He used to hunt with a friend of mine Beau in the Boston area. Maybe you have hunted with him as well. He is retired Military.

He has a channel on youtube with a guy. His daughter should be around 12 by now. (He was having trouble digging in rocks and I sent him some WW-2 bayonets--when I told him what they were worth he almost had a stroke) Check with Mr Bill on contacting him. I've not hunted with any guys from up there.

 

[BigTony]

Improved coil windings does not mean more windings: that is determined by the frequency. When it comes to batteries there are rechargable AA's that are 300 mA and there are 3700 mA, and I'm sure there are varieties with other batteries. In the Loop what kind of caps are used for the Transmit tank capacitor. Does ML use Litz wire in the coil?

Vlad, all good questions for Mark Lawrie. I did see the battery number 18659, or something close to those numbers.
Tony

 

[sgoss66]

For your assumption to work to it must be real world to make any kind of sense, not what if. Metal detectors are straight forward devices that work "in a certain way" and that deserves to be looked at literally. In the same fashion as reformatting a computer, giving a car a tune up, or taking an M-249 apart and putting it back together. If some one said I pull the engine to change the plugs the consensus would be are you insane? I would never speak figuratively, metaphorically symbolically about doing those things. They deserve objective, reliable. supportable (literal) words. What it sounds like you are trying to do is bring a type of relativism in by stating I do not know what I am am talking about, WE get that. Conjured......magic works better than that explanation. Next time just state simply Merrill was wrong, or ML did not lie because all the word salad is wasted effort and does nothing in support of your case, (If you were in Moot Court your own team would run you out)
Actually your speculation is a hypothesis, and you need to test it to see if it is true.

I get it -- you didn't like my post, and you want me to adhere to your thoughts as to how I should make posts in the future. Got it. I'll keep that in mind from now on...

Steve

 

[vlad]

I get it -- you didn't like my post, and you want me to adhere to your thoughts as to how I should make posts in the future. Got it. I'll keep that in mind from now on...

Steve

There are many knowledgeable here and I am sure there are some you hunt with you can ask. Showing you things hands on cannot be beat. Join the ML Equinox & Vanquish Metal Detecting Group on FB too: their finds are unbelievable. Be scientific in your approach. If you spoke Syrian Aramaic you would not have been more confusing.