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Disc or pinpoint?
- Thread starter braich77
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
Since this has been debated in the past, me being on the side that says pinpoint at least on my GT in *my soil* does not go as deep as discrimination- I would say to stick a coin in the ground at fringe depth and see if one picks it up deeper than the other. My money is on discrimination, but others say the exact reverse. I know I tried it on my friend's Excal and it wasn't deeper in PP either. It may be my ground versus others so I won't say they can't be right for them.
Critterhunter
New member
I've played with that and PP at full volume still won't sound off to really deep targets for me. Seems like past 7 to 9" or so PP no longer will hit on targets and that's when I just use discriminate to pinpoint them.
What I always found curious about the whole pp/discriminate debate was two things- Even if PP was deeper it's narrowing down the detection field of the coil so you are getting less coverage which is a huge trade off. Also, if you prefer to hunt in PP then why not just buy a PI unit since neither has discrimination and the PI probably gets deeper.
I know soil and even specific Sovereigns or Excals might explain why some seem to get deeper in PP then discrimination but I have yet to run into any machine that was deeper in All Metal than it was in discriminate. That was mainly true of units back in the 80's that had very poor discrimination circuits which would cost them depth. I think the only machine I ever owned that was deeper in All Metal was an old 80's Bounty Hunter. Can't remember the name but it was my first "real" detector besides $30 toys at Radio Shack.
What I always found curious about the whole pp/discriminate debate was two things- Even if PP was deeper it's narrowing down the detection field of the coil so you are getting less coverage which is a huge trade off. Also, if you prefer to hunt in PP then why not just buy a PI unit since neither has discrimination and the PI probably gets deeper.
I know soil and even specific Sovereigns or Excals might explain why some seem to get deeper in PP then discrimination but I have yet to run into any machine that was deeper in All Metal than it was in discriminate. That was mainly true of units back in the 80's that had very poor discrimination circuits which would cost them depth. I think the only machine I ever owned that was deeper in All Metal was an old 80's Bounty Hunter. Can't remember the name but it was my first "real" detector besides $30 toys at Radio Shack.
Thanks critterhunter What I have been saying for years
What I always found curious about the whole pp/discriminate debate was two things- Even if PP was deeper it's narrowing down the detection field of the coil so you are getting less coverage which is a huge trade off. Also, if you prefer to hunt in PP then why not just buy a PI unit since neither has discrimination and the PI probably gets deeper.
What I always found curious about the whole pp/discriminate debate was two things- Even if PP was deeper it's narrowing down the detection field of the coil so you are getting less coverage which is a huge trade off. Also, if you prefer to hunt in PP then why not just buy a PI unit since neither has discrimination and the PI probably gets deeper.
Critterhunter
New member
Sure, I'll fight that battle for you. 
In all my testing in my 14 years with the Sovereign I have never seen anyplace where I have better depth in PP, many times those deep one I can not get a signal in pinpoint, but with the disc set at 0 I can get enough of a signal to tell it is a good target and like you say pinpoint in disc and with the help of the S-1 probe find my target.
I have always said you learn more about the Sovereign each time out with it and the real depth comes with experience with the Sovereign once you get to understand its language and what to listen for.
Rick
I have always said you learn more about the Sovereign each time out with it and the real depth comes with experience with the Sovereign once you get to understand its language and what to listen for.
Rick
There are places that PP works better than in Disc. I have recovered nice targets that Disc. could not I.D. until a few inchs of sand was removed. Erikk don't get Critter started . Whatever method puts gold&silver in the scoop is all that matters anyhow. I'm going to get me some cold adult beverages and wait on Critters reply. HH 
I thought we were talking Excalibur here, mine is definately deeper in PP than disc, my GT is about the same in either so i use disc, my XS2apro might have the slight edge in PP but i need to change to Disc anyway to see what it is so i use that. On umpteen ocasions with the Excalibur when hunting in PP nothing at all is picked up when changing to disc to check for iron untill some sand is taken of to get the coil closer to the target
hershey1 said:There are places that PP works better than in Disc. I have recovered nice targets that Disc. could not I.D. until a few inchs of sand was removed. Erikk don't get Critter started . Whatever method puts gold&silver in the scoop is all that matters anyhow. I'm going to get me some cold adult beverages and wait on Critters reply. HH
Deeper/not deeper- do you agree that going into pinpoint shrinks the footprint of the coil? (this only requires a Y or N answer)
OldBeechnut
Well-known member
Best to find a deep target in Am, then do the test, where you hunt can make a big difference in which works best. I hunt Oc Md, Am is deeper. I go to the Chesapeake Bay, Am ..Disc..very close to equal depth. West coast Florida, both are very close, with Discriminate having the advantage East Coast florida, very close, but Am/PP wins there, VB, AC Am/PP deeper. Jones Beach NY, Am deeper, wet sand. If your new to the excal, I would say start in discriminate, learn your machine and how far you can push the settings in your area. Then try Almetal.
My Question to Hunters that say Discriminate is deeper or PP narrows the field of detection, Have you ever hunted out of State, across the Country or even Out of the country? With a Excal? If you have you will know that some Beach's the excal does not even penetrate but a few inch's in some places where as other places it will hit amazing depths in both modes. So try and keep a Open mind that anything is possible with these great machines. So the Locations conditions that your hunting is what affects the abilities of your detector, along with your experience with the machine, experience at this location and your hearing abilities..............
One more thing, why not get a Pi instead of hunting in Am with the excal, The beachs I have hunted I can go from a few targets, to lots of targets, the excal is the machine to have, and it acts as A Pi, AM/PP hunting where there are fewer targets { And just a few inch's shy of as deep as a PI } and I have discrimination when the targets are just about every swing. Like two detectors in One. Plus when the targets are fewer, I get Iron and few coins here and there, this gives me a target line I can follow, if I used disc., it nulls and the line becomes harder to follow........... Hunting in the AM/PP mode with the excal, I have found I can pick up a Pi detector and just about read what the target is once I am familiar with the target history of that beach. So PI's are just like AM/PP mode on the excal except for the Infinium Ls, a Beast of it's Own. Got a DF coming, Retire in 3 years, Road Trip Late Summer 2013, Get a little Video showing all the hard liners that where you hunt does make a difference.....and the rest will be History..................Good luck B77........Joe.
hershey1 said:Erikk I really don't think PP shrinks the footprint on a DD coil because I wiggle my coil backwards until the target sound leaves put my foot beside the coil move the coil and dig the target. So I'm getting full length of the coil. I know this is not a Y or N answer.
Are you saying that there is no difference in the size of your signal area in Disc or PP? I have 3 excals 2 with WOT coils and the Excal 2 with the stock 10 and I know my footprint shrinks when I switch If it is the same wonder why they call it pinpoint?
Critterhunter
New member
hershey1 said:There are places that PP works better than in Disc. I have recovered nice targets that Disc. could not I.D. until a few inchs of sand was removed. Erikk don't get Critter started . Whatever method puts gold&silver in the scoop is all that matters anyhow. I'm going to get me some cold adult beverages and wait on Critters reply. HH
I've got no problem with the theory that PP might get deeper than discriminate for some people based on location..................That is, if that location is anywhere but on this planet!
Seriously, just as some have suggested that perhaps some among us can't hear PP being deeper than discriminate because of our hearing, I would throw that back at you as the reason why some people think PP is deeper than discriminate. I've never seen the reverse of this to be true *in my soil* with any machine, be it in all metal or PP versus discrimination.
On the other hand, I have to wonder if some who claim better depth with PP might not be seeing the iron content of the soil and/or the low conductivity of the target (like say a thin gold chain) as it's being discriminated out by Iron Mask. In those cases I have no doubt that PP will hear the target where as discriminate might be discriminating it out due to it's low conductive nature or at the very least the amount of ground matrix the target is washed in (like iron). If that's the case then I would point out that there is a difference in being deeper and simply seeing it because of less/no discrimination.
Critterhunter
New member
I've got some interesting info on this debate as experienced at a fresh water beach on the great lakes over the last two days. This beach is giving my Sovereign more poor performance than I've ever seen using the stock 10" coil. I can only hunt in Auto there because even almost total lowest manual still is causing the threshold to null in and out. Once you get down past about 3 or 3:30PM on the dial in manual you might as well throw it into Auto because it'll get about the same depth as that low of a manual setting yet run so much smoother.
I don't know what it is about this beach but this has to be the worst spot I've ever hunted with the Sovereign on land or on the beach. Other beaches on the same lake aren't any problem with it and the depth is real good. What's weird about this beach is my 15x12 coil has no problem with it running in manual and gets good depth, yet the stock 10" coil is having real trouble staying stable in any kind of manual setting so I've had to hunt this spot the last two days in Auto.
As I've said in the 15x12 thread, the other curious thing is that this coil seems to get less depth in my mostly medium to high mineral land sites than the stock coil. About 8 or 9" seems tops for the SEF coil in my soil, yet on the beach this coil gets a good few inches deeper or more than the 10" coil, so in a sense they trade leads depending on it being land or sand. I would figure my land sites have too much mineral content to see the depth/size advantage of this coil, yet somehow on my mineralized fresh water beaches the SEF gets real good depth and takes the lead by a few inches or more (like 12 to 14" on a coin). On land the stock coil has thus far got me coins at around 11" deep with more to give because the response was so rock solid, yet on the beach the SEF beats it. Just very odd and I wonder the reasons behind both coils performance on land or beach. I would figure if it's not able to go as deep on land then my high mineral beaches would still keep it lagging behind but it doesn't. On land this coil can often run at higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil if I want (which I don't do because that doesn't mean max depth in my book, opting for a much lower calibration on a buried dime for best response).
Anyway, I've summed this up in the 15x12 thread but wanted to touch on it here just to give you some background for my addition to the PP Vs Discrimination debate. At this beach over the last few days having to run in Auto to keep the machine stable, I'm lucky to get 6 or 7" on a coin and even then it often gives a very distorted ID and is all over the place. Often the coin will go to a complete null from one direction like a bottle cap and not sound all that good from the other. Since I'm scooping any and all targets that sound of in any way even if they are mostly a null, this hasn't been a real issue for me. I just would never have expected such bad performance from my GT on any beach let alone a fresh water one, and had I not used the SEF coil there I wouldn't know just how well the machine can run at this particular site. It was easily getting me coins 10 to 12" deep where as the stock coil is struggling to obtain 6 or 7" and even that might be a stretch.
So, onto the point...Some of these coins I've been scooping that are say 5 or 6" deep I'll sometimes miss on the first scoop. Although the response was bad in the first place it sometimes gets even worse after a hole has been scooped in the sand. You know the routine, more than likely the coin gets turned on it's side by the disturbed sand and suddenly the signal is gone when I re-sweep the hole, even from both directions on some of these missed targets. Had I not detected them in the first place I would have not known there was a target in that hole. I've been flipping over to PP (love my remote PP switch mod) and suddenly the vanished target is back again and will PP from any direction, yet when I go back to discriminate it's suddenly gone again despite any which way I hack at it with the coil.
This is a first for me in terms of hearing a target in PP that discriminate isn't picking up. Normally it's the reverse of that at least on land for me, often not being able to hear a deep coin in PP so I pinpoint it in discrimination to figure out where to dig my plug. I've never experienced a vanishing target like this once the sand is disturbed where discriminate can no longer see it but PP picks it up fine from any direction.
However, PP isn't giving me more depth on this beach. It's just allowing me to see a target that either is on end now or discriminate can't locate due to the disturbed sand perhaps. I've even had a few coins that were maybe 3" deep max because I scooped that out onto the ground and it's at the bottom of that pile, yet discriminate can't detect it's presence. Rather than giving me more depth in this situation I feel that something is going on with the high mineral content of this sand that is lowering the conductivity of the target (probably due to iron being present in microscopic form in the sand) to where the GT can no longer see it or at least is nulling it out as "iron" or something. I kept thinking....Man, if I'm missing a coin 3" deep just because it's now on end or the sand is disturbed then how much stuff am I missing on this beach?
So I figured I'd pass this along in the great PP/Discriminate debate. I don't feel PP is going deeper but it is for sure seeing targets that discriminate is completely missing for whatever reason. Rather than it being a depth issue I some how feel that the mineral content of this sand is overwhelming discriminates ability to see the target. More than likely the target's conductivity is being brought way down into the iron range (or even as far down as being drowned in the ground signal) and thus totally missed by discriminate.
I'm in the process of griding this entire beach and the next time I'm there I plan to try All Metal tracked and fixed for a while, then switching over to PP and discriminate to check the targets and see what gives for each. I have a feeling the results of all three modes on targets might be real interesting to compare at this particular harsh site.
I can't stress enough how bad the machine (with stock coil, not SEF) has performed at this beach. It's almost like the machine is cutting in and out on a target as I sweep over it, giving me in/out audio and target IDs that are all over the place on anything past say 4" deep. I feel like I'm back to using something from Radio Shack performance wise at this spot. Never seen the Sovereign have so much trouble. I can only imagine how bad lessor machines would do there. A friend with a 6000 Pro XL says he doesn't get much depth on that beach either.
I don't know what it is about this beach but this has to be the worst spot I've ever hunted with the Sovereign on land or on the beach. Other beaches on the same lake aren't any problem with it and the depth is real good. What's weird about this beach is my 15x12 coil has no problem with it running in manual and gets good depth, yet the stock 10" coil is having real trouble staying stable in any kind of manual setting so I've had to hunt this spot the last two days in Auto.
As I've said in the 15x12 thread, the other curious thing is that this coil seems to get less depth in my mostly medium to high mineral land sites than the stock coil. About 8 or 9" seems tops for the SEF coil in my soil, yet on the beach this coil gets a good few inches deeper or more than the 10" coil, so in a sense they trade leads depending on it being land or sand. I would figure my land sites have too much mineral content to see the depth/size advantage of this coil, yet somehow on my mineralized fresh water beaches the SEF gets real good depth and takes the lead by a few inches or more (like 12 to 14" on a coin). On land the stock coil has thus far got me coins at around 11" deep with more to give because the response was so rock solid, yet on the beach the SEF beats it. Just very odd and I wonder the reasons behind both coils performance on land or beach. I would figure if it's not able to go as deep on land then my high mineral beaches would still keep it lagging behind but it doesn't. On land this coil can often run at higher sensitivity settings than the stock coil if I want (which I don't do because that doesn't mean max depth in my book, opting for a much lower calibration on a buried dime for best response).
Anyway, I've summed this up in the 15x12 thread but wanted to touch on it here just to give you some background for my addition to the PP Vs Discrimination debate. At this beach over the last few days having to run in Auto to keep the machine stable, I'm lucky to get 6 or 7" on a coin and even then it often gives a very distorted ID and is all over the place. Often the coin will go to a complete null from one direction like a bottle cap and not sound all that good from the other. Since I'm scooping any and all targets that sound of in any way even if they are mostly a null, this hasn't been a real issue for me. I just would never have expected such bad performance from my GT on any beach let alone a fresh water one, and had I not used the SEF coil there I wouldn't know just how well the machine can run at this particular site. It was easily getting me coins 10 to 12" deep where as the stock coil is struggling to obtain 6 or 7" and even that might be a stretch.
So, onto the point...Some of these coins I've been scooping that are say 5 or 6" deep I'll sometimes miss on the first scoop. Although the response was bad in the first place it sometimes gets even worse after a hole has been scooped in the sand. You know the routine, more than likely the coin gets turned on it's side by the disturbed sand and suddenly the signal is gone when I re-sweep the hole, even from both directions on some of these missed targets. Had I not detected them in the first place I would have not known there was a target in that hole. I've been flipping over to PP (love my remote PP switch mod) and suddenly the vanished target is back again and will PP from any direction, yet when I go back to discriminate it's suddenly gone again despite any which way I hack at it with the coil.
This is a first for me in terms of hearing a target in PP that discriminate isn't picking up. Normally it's the reverse of that at least on land for me, often not being able to hear a deep coin in PP so I pinpoint it in discrimination to figure out where to dig my plug. I've never experienced a vanishing target like this once the sand is disturbed where discriminate can no longer see it but PP picks it up fine from any direction.
However, PP isn't giving me more depth on this beach. It's just allowing me to see a target that either is on end now or discriminate can't locate due to the disturbed sand perhaps. I've even had a few coins that were maybe 3" deep max because I scooped that out onto the ground and it's at the bottom of that pile, yet discriminate can't detect it's presence. Rather than giving me more depth in this situation I feel that something is going on with the high mineral content of this sand that is lowering the conductivity of the target (probably due to iron being present in microscopic form in the sand) to where the GT can no longer see it or at least is nulling it out as "iron" or something. I kept thinking....Man, if I'm missing a coin 3" deep just because it's now on end or the sand is disturbed then how much stuff am I missing on this beach?
So I figured I'd pass this along in the great PP/Discriminate debate. I don't feel PP is going deeper but it is for sure seeing targets that discriminate is completely missing for whatever reason. Rather than it being a depth issue I some how feel that the mineral content of this sand is overwhelming discriminates ability to see the target. More than likely the target's conductivity is being brought way down into the iron range (or even as far down as being drowned in the ground signal) and thus totally missed by discriminate.
I'm in the process of griding this entire beach and the next time I'm there I plan to try All Metal tracked and fixed for a while, then switching over to PP and discriminate to check the targets and see what gives for each. I have a feeling the results of all three modes on targets might be real interesting to compare at this particular harsh site.
I can't stress enough how bad the machine (with stock coil, not SEF) has performed at this beach. It's almost like the machine is cutting in and out on a target as I sweep over it, giving me in/out audio and target IDs that are all over the place on anything past say 4" deep. I feel like I'm back to using something from Radio Shack performance wise at this spot. Never seen the Sovereign have so much trouble. I can only imagine how bad lessor machines would do there. A friend with a 6000 Pro XL says he doesn't get much depth on that beach either.