Disc/Depth

[sgoss66]

I wonder if “disc vs pinpoint” operation is deliberately set up this way so as to never have an issue pinpointing a target that has been found with disc? Just thinkin’...

I think you are exactly right, IDX -- pinpoint MUST be set up on purpose to be "deeper" than disc, so that you DON'T have an issue pinpointing a deep target found in disc. mode. But HOW? HOW do they make it a "deeper" mode, is what I wonder. Like sube said, that signal being used in pinpoint mode is STILL being "processed through an ID circuit" of some sort -- since you still get a VDI and a target trace, as sube alluded to. SO -- SOMEHOW it is deeper, but how? The world may never know...

Steve

 

[sgoss66]

Now on the other hand when we go to pinpoint we don't have ( disc audio ) but we still have audio so maybe getting rid of disc audio and just getting audio is why we see a difference in depth. sube

sube

Perhaps so, sube; perhaps there is an "audio ID" circuit separate from the numerical ID circuit -- i.e. a circuit that assigns proper tones to a receive signal. And maybe if a receive signal does not need to be assigned AUDIO ID (as in in pinpoint mode), but only NUMERICAL ID, then maybe a weaker signal can be used (i.e. a deeper target reported) in pinpoint mode than when running a mode where audio ID is outputted. Who knows...

Steve

 

[IDXMonster]

Very good thoughts floating around on this...I’m just curious about every nuance this machine has and always want to know HOW to get the most usefulness out of it. With the CTx you don’t have to try very hard to get usefulness! Damnedest thing I’ve ever seen...

 

[sube]

Steve said There's no doubt that on some machines with a true, all-metal mode where a more "unprocessed" signal can be monitored by the operator if all-metal mode is selected, you can get "more depth" than you could in disc. mode -- by listening for subtle "threshold wavers" or whatever. And in these cases, "depth" would be "lost" when you switch into disc. mode -- because that "threshold waver" will usually not successfully be assigned an ID within the ID/disc. circuit, and thus is not given an audio tone -- and thus the overall effect is, you can hear "deeper" targets in all-metal mode than you can in "disc." mode. But again, since FBS does not operate in this way (no true all-metal mode, and all receive signals passed through ID/disc. processing, as far as I can tell), then the "rules" that are associated with machines that are deeper in "true all-metal mode" and "not as deep" in disc. mode, don't apply to FBS.

Everybody keeps saying there's no true all metal mode on the ctx well maybe true maybe not . In the case above this is just how the ctx acts say your running 5 for sensitivity you will notice you will loose audio at 3 inches there abouts also the curser is gone so is target trace now we go to pinpoint mode pinpoint mode well go 12 inches on a penny regardless where the sensitivity is set at .Now if we are in pitch hold where that penny cuts out at 3 inches and starts to thunk having pitch hold as sound will give you 1 more inch of depth with audio id but well give you no more of a trace than if you were in normal for sound .

Let's crank it up to 24 for sensitivity now we will get a curser audio id and maybe a little red in the curser at 9 inches with a penny go to pinpoint mode and we can get it at 12 inches again same as being at 5 for sensitivity what I think is happening is once the audio is lost the machine is basically in all metal we don't have a curser we don't have audio id and target trace is gone no disc at all .

Now if we have a target that we still have audio id but is inconsistent and no red in the curser and the curser is jumpy because it's deep say were running at 21 for sensitivity what I do is crank it up to 26 to 30 this well give better audio and more red in the curser to a point audio is always deeper than target trace .But by cranking it up audio and the curser well be better if it's to deep we may get no red but the curser and audio well be there .Now if were running at 21 and go to 30 you will say won't that make the machine more unstable yes but were sweeping a know en target and if we have good coil control we won't get all that noise if we were just hunting running with 30 for sensitivity.

Once we loose audio and the unfilled curser it's deep or very small target shallow . So now we are back to what I say all metal no audio id no curser just audio which is deeper than disc mode about the only disc we have is a double beep on a nail and that's really not disc it just the way nails sound . sube

 

[sgoss66]

Interesting thoughts, sube...

No doubt it's hard to know exactly what is going on "under the hood." Minelab sure doesn't tell us, so we are left to try to figure it out by what we observe.

It's fun, in a way, trying to figure things out, but frustrating (to me) that we don't have a little more information about some of these things...

Steve

 

[IDXMonster]

Pretty cool stuff,mind bending even....these are the types of things that ALOT of hours on a machine will let you know about,and there’s just no other way. I really wonder HOW good the CTX really is,and what else is yet to be discovered about it and the way it operates. It’s hard for me to follow everything said here,so I’ll have to go back and read it again several times.

 

[tcornel]

At the beach when digging a target sometimes the signal (accepted target) will disappear with the machine running screen one in discrimination mode. No signal, don't know where to dig the next scoop. I switch to screen 2 and I can pick up the signal. If there is no difference in depth why does this happen?

When sweeping with no discrimination (17" coil} I will detect a deep accepted signal. I turn on the discrimination and the only way I get that signal is to slow down the sweep speed. Keeping the same sweep speed will cause the target to be missed.

Am I missing something?

 

[sube]

Interesting thoughts, sube...

No doubt it's hard to know exactly what is going on "under the hood." Minelab sure doesn't tell us, so we are left to try to figure it out by what we observe.

It's fun, in a way, trying to figure things out, but frustrating (to me) that we don't have a little more information about some of these things...

Steve

Steve it's not why or how it works it's what it dose that you should be concerned about .If one of the ph guys at minelab tried to explain it to you I don't think you would understand anyway unless he put it into layman terms which he probably could not do either then again if you could understand what the heck he was talking about then minelab might loose some of it's secrets . So I just want to know what it dose and that's what is important to me I could care less how it dose it or why it dose it . You have to know your machine what all the buttons and modes do Andys book is a great start and is very good training great book but that's only a small part of it.

Tcmel said am I missing something
No this is just how the ctx behaves the more disc you use the slower the sweep speed and you will loose targets as you say if you sweep to fast it just can't keep up . But in open screen and little disc the machine is able to keep up why how who cares it's what it dose now running less disc will allow you to cover ground faster because you can sweep faster withouit loosing targets .sube

 

[cjc]

With this detector you're kind of between a "rock" (High Gain Sensitivity) and a "hard place" (a complex, highly processed signal). So you have the choice between a lot of noise and an unfocused signal OR the "sluggishness" of the processing that a closed screen requires. A lot of these UK progs have the right approach ie. "Tadpole". The idea is to stabilize the amount of Sensitivity you want to use. by riding above the iron and ground noises. This makes the Sensitivity usable and unhindered by all the pure open screen crap noises. There's a great quote by DR. Tones in Andy's book that lays this principle out. These sophisticated digital detectors can do some remarkable things. Tests I'm doing with the Impact and Kruzer show that (to a certain extent) they just flat out subtract the iron and EMI and keep right on trucking.
cjc clivesgoldpage.com

 

[sgoss66]

Interesting, Clive. VERY interesting. So you think a "tadpole" approach is BETTER than EITHER a "fully open screen," OR a "tight disc. pattern?" Just enough disc. to "knock out the 'false' noises," and no more than that?

I could SEE tadpole being preferable to a tight disc. pattern; it being preferable to a fully open screen though (if my understanding is correct and this is what you are actually saying) is a bit counter-intuitive to me...

Steve

 

[cjc]

yes, that's what's called signal balancing--just as with a pulse. It allows you to use more sen sensitivity without the noise. But just as with a pulse--its not a setting--its a balance.
cjc

 

[sgoss66]

I have ZERO familiarity with pulse machines, so this is a totally new "way of thinking of it" (signal balancing) for me. It's going to take some time to think this through, though on the surface it makes BASIC sense. You describe this in detail in one of your books?

It seems as though what you may be implying is that the MORE signals being discriminated by your pattern, the more the machine is "taxed" in a negative way (processing power, or whatever ,trying to discriminate). SUCH THAT -- you want to "tax" the machine as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE (i.e. discriminate as FEW signals as possible), BUT -- DO discriminate JUST ENOUGH so that the "good" signals "stand out" better from what would otherwise be a bunch of "false" signals (from mineral or EMI)? In other words, NO disc. would be the IDEAL, but given that ground mineral and EMI noise DOES exist, it's better to use a LITTLE discrimination, such that the negative of using a bit of disc. is outweighed by the positive of reducing the "distraction" that the "noise" causes (distraction which can result in missing deep, subtle signals from good targets)?

I guess my question is, the implication is that you are running 50 tones (multi-tone) conductive? Because it would seem that another, equally valid way to do what you are suggesting is just run open screen, and set your FE break point down there at a similar level FE-wise to where "tadpole" discriminates?

Steve

 

[cjc]

Steve
changing the FE tone break of a detector is an audio change. With a pulse, when you reduce the Delay, you are muting the entire signal--in order to have it "ride above" ground noises and EMI. THEN you can add more power--sparingly--in a balanced way. With the CTX--you can demonstrate the opposite by running open screen and full Sens. Begin with the idea that what a detector does is to separate metal from ground--with open screen the two are joined.--audibly.. So when we begin to block out some low areas of the CTX's reject range-the same thing is being accomplished. This acts to focus the unit's power to where there is less interference--or "tax" as you put it. This is what is meant by "usable Sensitivity." GH's UK "Ghost" program is more along the lines you suggest--FE audio that acts to graduate responses using that metric--but it's generally agreed that FE audio is not as deep as CO.
cjc

 

[Champ Ferguson]

This isn't directed at Clive but at pretty much all the ultra-experienced hunters out there that use FBS.

Other than the difficulty of learning all the tones and the "i've always hunted my other machines this way", I still don't understand why someone wouldn't want to run 50 tones instead of 5. There is SO much information in those sounds the FBS machines make and I just don't get why youd want to dumb down your machine. (except in very specific cases, of course. but for general hunting of all valuable targets, I want to hear everything I can)

 

[cjc]

I run Andy's Beach as a first search mode all the time and recommend it in my book. I also recommend going back and forth between combined and 50 CO for more information.
cjc

 

[sgoss66]

Clive --

I appreciate your patience with my questions; if I ask too many and you don't want to answer any more, I get it...

But, while you are still answering, I will ask.

I understand ENOUGH of pulse detectors that I think I know what you are talking about, with respect to delay. I know that where you set your delay (in ms) affects the size/type of targets your machine can/will "see" and thus report. So I guess from what you are saying, if you set your delay ABOVE the ground response, the machine won't even "SEE" the ground response at all. So THEN -- when you increase sensitivity, you are focusing that sensitivity on ONLY the types of targets the machine can respond to (and NOT the ground, which you "tuned out" through setting proper delay). IF my understanding here is correct, then I get this part.

BUT, transferring that point over to the CTX, I can only KIND OF see how it might relate. When you say that you can accomplish the "same thing" on a CTX (by rejecting some ground signal, using disc.) as you can on a pulse machine (by altering your delay), I'm having some trouble with this logically. Here's why...

On a pulse unit, if you set your machine's delay to where it is BLIND to a particular target, then I can see where the machine is not being "taxed" at all, by that target. It totally doesn't even see it, so by definition it is not having to do any processing of any sort, on that signal. It is BLIND to that target (be it ground, or tiny piece of gold, whatever). But, logically my mind would say that that's not the case on the CTX, unless I'm missing something. Because -- if the ground is causing a return signal that is received by the unit, (i.e. the machine is SEEING some ground response, instead of being "BLIND" to it as in the pulse machine's case) -- then the machine is having to DEAL WITH that signal. Whether you discriminate the response, or not, the machine is still "dealing with it" -- it has to run algorithms to DECIDE whether it is a "discriminated/rejected" signal, or not, right? In my mind, all that "discrimination" does on the CTX is tell the unit to take an already processed/ID'd signal, and then decide whether to assign a TONE to it (if it's an ACCEPTED signal), or to assign SILENCE (blank in the threshold) to it (if it's a REJECTED signal). But either way, it would seem to me (and I could be wrong) that the machine is still DEALING with that signal in it's processing/ID algorithms, right? Just because it "blanks" a rejected signal, does NOT mean it hasn't already had to deal with/process/ID/discriminate that signal.

SO, back to the example of, say, the "tadpole" program, it would seem to me that the machine is having to do the same amount of work-- whether you discriminate the lower portions of your screen, or NOT. Saying it another way -- it would seem to me that no matter how much, or how little, disc. you are using, the machine is still doing the same amount of work. You can leave the screen fully open, or you can run a VERY TIGHT disc. program -- but either way, the machine SHOULD (it would seem to me from a logic perspective) be doing all the same steps...those steps being 1.) Receive signal; 2.) process signal; 3.) ID signal; 4.) decide if the processed/ID'd signal is accepted or rejected; 5.) pass the signal through the audio algorithm and assign it an audio characteristic (a TONE, if it is accepted, or a BLANK if it is rejected). So whether it's a "ground signal" or a "metal target signal," I'm just not seeing how the machine is doing "more" or "less" work when you choose to discriminate some signals, or no signals, or whatever the case may be.

Now, you seem to be saying that the "sensitivity" applies only to accepted, and not rejected signals; that you can "focus the machine" on only accepted signals, because, as you imply, sensitivity is not "applied" to rejected targets (including ground response). BUT -- if that's true, then wouldn't you be able to focus the machine EVEN MORE, from a sensitivity perspective, if you ran MORE disc., and rejected MORE targets? In other words, if the CTX allows me to increase sensitivity ONLY on accepted targets, and NOT rejected ones, then logically it would seem that running even MORE disc. would give even BETTER response on your "accepted" targets, than if your ran MINIMAL disc. (like the tadpole program).

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue or disagree, I'm truly just trying to understand all of this logically, because my understanding of this process has SIGNIFICANT implications as to how to best set up the machine and I' in that stage, as a new CTX user, where I'm trying to learn...

Are there flaws in my thinking here?

Thanks Clive, for your patience with me --

Steve

 

[sgoss66]

This isn't directed at Clive but at pretty much all the ultra-experienced hunters out there that use FBS.

Other than the difficulty of learning all the tones and the "i've always hunted my other machines this way", I still don't understand why someone wouldn't want to run 50 tones instead of 5. There is SO much information in those sounds the FBS machines make and I just don't get why youd want to dumb down your machine. (except in very specific cases, of course. but for general hunting of all valuable targets, I want to hear everything I can)

Champ --

I am struggling to understand the same thing. WHY WOULD YOU NOT want to run 50 tones?

I have a couple of hunting buddies that run 4-tone combined, and they do extremely well -- I mean EXTREMELY well. They focus their tone profiles specifically on only the targets they wish to dig at a given site -- and they are the best hunters I personally know. BUT -- coming from an Explorer, and being so used to running full multi-tone, and how to mentally process those tones, I am trying to logically process through in my mind how there are not also advantages to be had by utilizing ALL tones made available by the machine, versus just a few. Where I am at right now, in repeatedly grinding this through my mind logically, is that BOTH ways of running can have merit. If there is a site where ALL YOU WANT TO DIG is silver, then setting up a combined mode that gives you a very distinct response tonally to ONLY silver coin IDs, does make some sense. On the other hand, if you are wanting to dig a variety of targets on a given hunt, then 50-tone conductive may be the way to run...

Like I said, I'm still hammering this out in my mind; I ponder this ALOT. Again, my buddies SWEAR that NOT running multi-tone, but instead running combined, is ABSOLUTELY preferred, and they have mind-blowing results to support their argument. But, my mind keeps nagging me; these are such "hunt by ear" machines, that you HAVE to be missing out on information, on nuance, on clues, if you don't utilize the full audio that is available to you, in multi-tone...don't you?

(I ask patience from my two partners -- you know who you are, LOL -- and for you not to kill me for still pondering this; I know you both think I'm insane for not just listening to you -- and dumping my love affair with 50-tone in the trash, and "embracing the dark side" LOL!! I know I'm exasperating you both!!)

Steve

 

[Champ Ferguson]

Steve, what Clive suggests makes sense- flipping back and forth to gain the maximum amount of information. Like I will for example flip between Ground Coin and Ferrous Coin to see how the response changes. But I have just heard too many "whats that weird sound" in 50c that turned out to be interesting targets to want to lump areas together. I am pretty much an audio hunter that uses the screen after I hear something worth investigating.

As to your friends, they may just be so good, that they don't need all that info. (and i say that with all due Respect). I need all the machine help I can get..

 

[sgoss66]

Champ --

I agree, and that's often what I do -- switch back and forth. I have a 50-tone mode and a combined mode, and keep one under my "user" button, so I switch back and forth quite often when I hit an "unusual" target. I totally agree with you there.

And yes, I DO think that my friends are SO good, that they don't need all the info. I think that may EXACTLY be it...

Steve

 

[sube]

Steve

There you guys go again trying to guess how the ctx works who cares it's what it dose that matters. As far as adding disc the more disc the slower the response is or the slower your swing speed has to be I have videos of this it's the way it is . sube

Champ

As far as 50 tone that's what I used on the explorer till combine came along look at it this way instead of having to listen to each tone that's 50 of them I can bin my nickels and run 29 to 50 all at the same tone 1 tone to listen for what could be easier. One look at the screen when I have a high tone and I get my id it's less taxing sharing the work load with eyes and ears .Then again there's that fe line thing that 50 tones does not have . sube