Depth issues...

[sgoss66]

Steve(MS) --

Reading your posts is ALWAYS a help. Yes, indeed, the rusty bent nails are what seem to fool me alot. The other things that get me are aluminum screw caps, smashed flat -- ESPECIALLY when I am in an old place where I think there may be Indian heads and thus am digging things just a bit lower in sound, small, flat pieces of metal (very "coin-like" pieces), and also small, but thick pieces of wire-type metal (often copper) -- maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch in diameter, a couple of inches long. Those types of objects fool me often. But mostly, it's the deep iron. And yes, sounds below the top of the screen are not the issue, as you say. I guess to clarify, I'd put it this way...I know a mid-depth silver dime, no trash around it, will give a nice solid upper right cursor, and a nice consistent 02 29-ish number, for instance. The problem is, I KNOW I won't find many -- if any -- of these at that old park I mentioned. So, I know I need to look for something that digitally or cursor-wise will read "worse." But the "worse" thing is the issue -- what does "worse" mean? I do not have the experience to fall back on, to say "the last 6 iffies I dug, that turned out to be silver, sounded like this and read like this..." I don't HAVE that experience, so, all I can do is "guess" what those types of tougher coin targets might read like and sound like. And, again, when I try that, and dig "iffies," having not found any good targets in my plug when doing so makes me ask "well, was that the 'wrong' kind of iffy to dig, or was it the 'right' kind?" You helped with that, in saying that the rusty bent nails are the "right" kind...bottom line is, I need more experience -- i.e. more DATA! (Or, like I mentioned, get lucky enough to go on a hunt with someone who is good at hunting in the thick trash -- and "learn the ropes"!)

You mentioned homes -- I got access to a 1930 home that is now abandoned. I have unlimited access. I thought this would be great. Turns out, it is SO trashy you can't even believe it. I have never dug more varied types of odd trash in my LIFE! I think the guy who owned this home must have been a plumber/electrician/mechanic/farmer, and decided that there is no need for a "dump" when you can use your whole YARD as a dump! If you need to find an odd piece of metal -- let me know; I'll get it for you in short order, from this yard. Seriously. Coin-wise? In probably 20-30 hours of hunting this place, I have a couple of zincs, a couple of memorials, and two wheats, to go with my BUCKETFULS of junk! Now, I will say that I dig alot more targets at this spot than I normally would at a park or whatever, but still, I'm not sure it is helping me learn to differentiate good-sounding trash from good-sounding goodies! I need a new yard to try, and will keep searching.

Bottom line, I need many, many more hours on this unit, but equally so, I need many, many more GOOD TARGETS to dig, both easy AND difficult ones, so that I can hasten the learning curve!

But, in the mean time, I appreciate all the help you are giving me. By the way, you have my curiousity up -- exactly WHAT would you do at this 120-year old park? You said "I know what I would do..." WHAT would you do? I suspect your answer would be to put on a small coil, head for the trashiest part of the park you could find, and go slow from different angles, digging any hint at a "good"-sounding tone?

McDave --

You are absolutely right. There is alot of help here on the forums, but nothing is a substitute for experience -- which you only gain by using the machine and digging targets. And yes, I agree, coins do sound unique. Most of the time, you can tell when it's a coin under the coil. I am fooled some, but not all that often. I agree with you on that point. These are great machines. I simply need to find some areas with a few good targets in them, so that I can get used to what "good" targets sound like. And by good, I'm referring to silver. I have the "clad" part down pretty well, and some spots where I can find plenty of clad. It's the old silvers that I'm finding so elusive, in the spots I normally hunt!

Steve

 

[Steve(MS)]

But, in the mean time, I appreciate all the help you are giving me. By the way, you have my curiousity up -- exactly WHAT would you do at this 120-year old park? You said "I know what I would do..." WHAT would you do? I suspect your answer would be to put on a small coil, head for the trashiest part of the park you could find, and go slow from different angles, digging any hint at a "good"-sounding tone?

Well my settings are fixed to suit me which may or may not be appropriate for you.
I have seen users of Explorers use a wide variety of settings and still very successful.
So if you look at say Bryce's settings, they are different from mine.

I use audio 1 exclusively, along with conduct sounds, around 27 manual sensitivity
gain set to 9.
If I have the small coil on, I may set the gain higher
My iron mask (XS Explorer) is set low but varies according to ground moisture content
usually from -15 to -13.
But these settings are not for the faint of heart since one will hear a bunch more stuff
compared to no audio 1.
Hmm, I don't know if the SE has audio 1, I think they renamed it to something else.
The iron mask setting numbers are expanded on the SE so not sure how they correlate.
Then I also use the program screen, I always have it cleared (wide open) and use it
at times on signals I want to check out a little more.
What I do is search in iron mask and toggle to program screen which is wide open
to see if I want to dig or not.

But yes, at this stage, I really do recommend a smaller coil for you.
There are are a lot of guys that actually learned first with a small coil
them put the stock coil back on.
What that does it sort of quiet the machine down some since the smaller
footprint takes in less area.

I suppose you have thought about the possibility that the old park has been
cleaned out of old coins.
This could especially be true if it has been hit hard by really good Explorer
users......but there is still a good chance there is still stuff left and likely
if there is a lot of nails and other trash items there.
It definitely wouldn't stop me from laying my ears back and spending time there....
If you have a small coil, put it on and start at the edges of the areas where there
is a lot of shallow nails.
Go slow and listen for anything resembling a coin hit, take chances on
broken signals........really though it would be better if you had a little more time
under belt and had more confidence in your machine.
That is the reason for the old house huntings....and yeah, I have hunted some like
you mentioned.....I hunt a lot of old house places.....if one can handle old house
places, he will likely be able handle anything thrown at him.
At old house places, I generally dig all non-ferrous hits but in such a place as you
mentioned, that may not be feasible.

About the discerning of deep high conductive coin and differentiating it from nail
falses.
It is really hard to write down for someone to go by.
It almost has to be experienced.
For me and again can't quite put it in words, I listen for the silence nuance just before
and after the null, and then the warble tone of the coin is different than a nail.
And this can change slightly from one location to the next...

The "bouncing" cursor...I tried to explain it to a good friend of mine who was trying to
learn the Explorer.
The best way I could tell him was to bury a dime at 5" deep and while sweeping gradually
raise his coil and observe how the cursor reacts.
Well....I don't know if that was a help to him since he afterwards sold his Explorer and
bought a Sov GT .
He really likes the Sov and is doing well with it
But he told me he was thinking about buying another Explorer.....I was trying to get him
to try out an Etrac and let me know how he likes it (this is a hint for him) .

Finally there have been many times when I go for deep ones that don't exhibit any reliable cursor
reading...going strictly by sound alone.
But one must have some experience, be daring have some confidence.
which is exactly what I think the Explorer does, it invites the user to think to himself,
what the heck does this mean and then dig to find out.

 

[sgoss66]

Interesting, Steve.

Yes, there is an "Audio 1" on the SE, but it's called "long." Manual describes it as "almost continuous sound" that may be good to use for advanced users, when multiple targets are close together. As for iron mask, ours runs 0-32, yours 0 to -16, I think? Anyway, I hear you about running some iron mask, but not alot, and then a disc. pattern that is "wide open" to check things out sometimes. I do that, also -- switch back and forth between an open screen and another screen with some level of disc. or iron mask.

Otherwise, your settings are similar to Bryce's. He doesn't use "audio 1," but "normal" audio (conductive sounds), he uses gain 10 instead of 9 (I actually prefer 8 or 9 but trying to get used to 10), and he uses manual sens. 26, where you said 27. Overall fairly similar.

Yes, I think the park has been hammered, and old coins mostly gone. However, I know there are a few there that the Explorer, in the hands of an experienced user, could find. I'm sure you would leave this park with a few keepers.

I will do what you said to watch the "bouncing" cursor. I have coins buried -- I'll check out my 6" silver dime and raise the coil as I sweep. I also find it interesting that you will sometimes dig on sound alone...I'll keep that in mind.

Finally, I'm trying to understand this "silence nuance" after the null -- and then a warble tone. Yes, I have heard the difference between a more "warbly" high tone of a silver coin, and the "steadier" or "less variable" high tone with a rusty nail. Sometimes those "less variable, steadier" high tones are, for me, clad quarters, too. But dimes and pennies -- especially silver dimes and deep memorials/wheaties -- do have a "warble" to them. I can certainly utilize that when deciding to dig or not next to a piece of iron. But can you explain in any more detail that "silence nuance" you speak of, after the null?

Steve

 

[Steve(MS)]

Yes, audio 1 is not for everyone.
I don't know of anyone else that uses it full time,
I have read where a few use it part time.

Actually I think Bryce uses semi-auto a good deal of the time.
And I think he uses the default setting on iron mask?

With my settings, (so I don't know if it applies to other settings).
Those deep coins(that may be close to nails) that break thru the null
will tend to feather in and out of the silence rather than have a abrupt
silence right after the null.
The feathering out of the null is easier to hear...
While the falsing nail will be abrupt.
The quality of the warble of a coin is generally different than a falsing
nail.
Very hard to put in words, like trying to explain as Tom(Ca) says
how the middle C on a piano sounds to someone who hasn't heard it.
Falsing nails are more mono-tone than coins but a few of them come
close and mimic a deep coin.
I tend to think the falsing nail generally is off center of where the
supposed center of "good signal" is reported.
And it generally isn't that deep, maybe 4 to 6".
But I have dug falsing nails that were very deep.
If the place you happen to be detecting don't have many falsing nails
say like only a few, then dig some and see how deep they are,
try to see exactly where they were from the center of your "good signal"
and how they are oriented in the ground.ie, like if they are flat laying or whatever.
Try to register as much info as you can about it.
If they were bent.
Then if you happen upon that good deep coin, try to remember all the info you can
about it.

Since I detect old house places, there are times when there are not many good signals
so I tend to dig some falsing nails just for the heck of it.
I think to myself, not much going so I will dig some real crappy signals and doesn't matter
to me whether it is a high tone or somewhere in the middle of the screen.
Really my curiosity takes over and I will dig broken tones....just about anything...

Then there is the 2 nails separated on each side of the center of the coil
and when the coil is swept over them will produce a false......
you may run into this....pinpointing generally tells off on these.

But this is mainly general info.
Back when I first got my Explorer, I didn't have a computer
or internet.
I had to learn it on my own without any aid from anywhere.
For me there was no "buy and try" but more like I bought
this detector and I'd better do everything I can to make it work
for me.
I had only read info out of kellyco about Explorers
so really didn't know what I was getting into.
Before then, I was a Whites user.
Early on I had moments of boy did I really screw up
when I bought this but there was no backing down
for me.
I am glad I stuck with it.

 

[sgoss66]

Great info, of course, Steve.

Yeah, Bryce does use 26 semi-auto, not manual. I forgot that. And yes, he uses Iron Mask 22, which I think is the same as like -6 or -7 on the older Explorers. In other words, his screen is not as open as yours, if you are running like -13 to -15...that's almost all the way open.

And yes, I have had the "two nails close together" falsing; after digging some of those and learning that, I have at times been able to figure out that that was what I was dealing with, and thus was able to make a "no-dig" decision.

I think I understand about the "feather in and out" of the good coin, as opposed to the more "abrupt" nail false. Not sure if I'd get that response without being in Audio 1 (Long, on my machine), but I'll try to listen for it. Just last evening and again this morning, on a couple of short hunts, I a few deeper (4-5") very rusty nails. While the FE numbers were higher for the most part on these targets than I'd usually dig (FE was in the teens to near 20 on most passes, though occasionally it was single digits), I dug anyway mostly due to the audio. I also set up a pattern with a wide open screen, and then detected most of the time in IM 22, but when something was "iffy," I switched to that wide open pattern. It was helpful.

You certainly had it tougher when you were learning your Explorer; I appreciate you helping out those of us with less experience; I know yours was hard-earned, and it's great to hear your experience as you share it here.

Thanks!

Steve

 

[sgoss66]

Ohio Fred, and other readers..

I stated earlier that I THOUGHT that raising sensitivity actually increased "transmit power," per something I read in Andy Sabisch's book. However, in checking it out with NASA Tom Dankowski, he is almost certain that indeed, sensitivity only deals with the RECEIVED signal, not the transmitted signal. So, Fred, you were right, apparently. Sensitivity, it appears, only "amplifies" the received signal -- making weaker signals louder/more pronounced...

I am surprised, as the machine seems to behave AS IF transmit power is increased with increasing sensitivity (IMO)...

Steve

 

[ohio fred]

n/t

 

[mickfin]

Thanks Sgos66 for starting this post, Iv read over 1/2 of this thread, And thanks Bryce-IL 4R your Info on Nulling N your setings, sgos66 rember?? the old
analog units??? Think of the smart find as one???? You cant see it jump around so much and it wont Freek you out???
Thanks Bryce im a newbi to this SE also but i know that much, Thanks , Mickfin

 

[TURNMASTER]

I have been running semi-auto 26 and gain 8 or 9 I will modify to manual 26 and play with the manual sensitivity a bit and move the gain to 10.

The old trashed out house I have been hunting has produced some good coins (1919 S SLQ). Some of the deeper coins have been in the 4 to 5 inch range and dated 1900 and 1918. But, there are areas where I have been able to get squat, areas where there is significant turf/soil build up I have been able to get only shallower clad. Now my theory is that semi auto sensitivity is cutting the power back because of all the trash and iron.

Thanks for the great thread. I will post with results, on ground previously covered.

Jeff

 

[sgoss66]

Great, Turnmaster -- looking forward to the results from what sounds like a great location to hunt.

I will tell you one thing though -- if your trash is shallow iron, then you may not get much more depth by adjusting sensitivity. Shallow iron (and the iron masking issues that go along with it) severely restrict detection depth, no matter HOW powerful/sensitive your machine. If you are hunting a relatively trash-free area, and you increase (manual) sensitivity, you will will hear deeper targets than you could with lower sensitivity. However, in iron trash, the BEST way to increase depth is to use a SMALLER COIL -- one that has a better chance of "seeing between the iron."

Just wanted to pass that along.

Take care,

Steve

 

[TURNMASTER]

It can be like driving with your brights on in fog. Sometimes it makes visibility worse.

Jeff

 

[TURNMASTER]

OK so I got out for 2 hunts. 1 hour represents the few coins behind the ring. 1.5 hr is the Silver dime and the coins with it. FBS 800 coil Sens Man 24, Conductive, IM 22

I feel after running in Manual Sensitivity that the machine is better than in Semi Auto. I did get a couple "troubled" coins. One of the clad dimes came from a patch off the front porch that is so bad you get Iron hits every Inch or 2. (at best) I have gone over that 2' by 6' spot 3x with the Xterra and now 3x with the SE, crawling every time and back n forth and different directions. Some of the other coins were in a bed of nails, although not directly underneath any. The Silver Dime came with a tone that made me think Nickel East to West and had a little higher tone North to South. After pulling that coin and re sweeping the hole there was a very low tone left that did not enter the good area in the Smartfind screen. and Iron 4 to 6 inches in several directions. All of the coins came from ground previously covered by either Xterra or Explorer. Hmmmm I also run the Xterra in Automatic Ground Tracking, but that is a whole nother conversation.

I believe that running with the Sens in Manual it may cause the machine stop searching for a lower setting, Which MAY cause the machine to become underpowered and loose significant depth.

Just my theory. The results will cause me to only run in Manual Sensitivity.
[attachment 199817 DSC03073.jpg]

Experts Please Chime In

Jeff

P.S. The clad dime is the only coin that I got out of that patch by the front porch. I am going to run a little less sensitivity and hit that spot again. OH YEAH I dug a TON of iffy and super iffy signals just for kicks and giggles. Most were bent or super rusty or roofing nails or nuts and washers, of various metals.

 

[TURNMASTER]

The Silver Dime came with a tone that made me think Nickel East to West and had a little higher tone North to South. After pulling that coin and re sweeping the hole there was a very low tone left that did not enter the good area in the Smartfind screen. and Iron 4 to 6 inches in several directions.


Should Read, 4 to 6 inches away in several directions

Jeff

 

[sgoss66]

Jeff --

NASA Tom Dankowski's opinion is that running an Explorer is semi-auto WILL cause the machine to underperform -- for exactly the reasons you state. Meanwhile, Bryce-IL on this forum uses semi-auto all the time, feels he does NOT lose depth, and obviously makes a TON of good finds. So, opinions differ, and I guess we need to find out what works for us in our area, with our style of hunting -- which is exactly what you have done!

For me, I have been running semi-auto, following Bryce's settings. The machine DOES seem to be more stable running that way, but don't have enough time on it to get a feel for which is better...though I appreciate you sharing your experience. It helps.

Steve

 

[Doctorcoinz]

I once got a honest 10 inch medium sized coin with an SE the signal was fairly iffy but good enough to say dig me. Mostly i get coins no deeper than 7 inches i think most coins don't sink deeper than 7 0r 8 inches any way , having said that i believe a few coins can for reasons unknown sink to 12 - 18 inches down especially on pasture or soil that is ploughed Only a pulse induction can get these 12 -18 inch deep coins , i would say 90% of all lost coins are within 8 inches with the remaining 10%
at say 10 - 18 inches , any one agree with this !

 

[sgoss66]

Doc --

You raise a very interesting issue; if you really want to have this discussion (coin depth), you might consider putting it in a new thread. I know there are parts of the country where "coins sink" very readily (sandy Florida, for instance), but otherwise, this is a tough question. Do we not see deeper coins (past 8-10'') very often because there AREN'T many, or because our detectors don't SEE them? I tend to think in many cases, what you state above is correct -- at least in my part of the country (Oklahoma, with its very dense, red clay). No WAY do I see a coin naturally "sinking" to 18" in this dirt. But, on the other hand, lots of places we hunt have had fill dirt brought in and spread...so a previously 4" deep coin can easily end up at 8-10", or more, depending. I have no idea how to put a "percent" on it, but I would agree that a huge majority of coins, in most soil, are 8" deep OR SHALLOWER.

Steve

 

[EladSwerdna]

I don't understand why this is a problem? I have been running max manual sensitivity for years. The only time you ever want to decrease your sens is when you are in a trashy site. (in my opinion anyways) If you're in a non-trashy farm field you should be maxed out. If you are in the woods hunting for relics and deep large cents/old silver, you should be maxed out. If not you will miss out on the deepies.

I personally have not gotten deeper than 10" on large coins. For example, earlier this year I went back to an old site of mine that I thought was hunted out to give it one more chance. I swept slowly and kept the coil as close to the ground as possible. I ended up pulling out an 1839 large cent and 3 feet away an 1825 2 reale, both coins were at 10" and barely registered on the machine. Had I been any less than max sensitivity, I would have missed them completely.

On the other hand I have found larger relics almost 2 feet down with my ETrac. Unfortunately, we will never be able to find small silver/copper at 10"+ with these FBS machines. I wish I could afford a GPX5000; this would open up so many sites again!

 

[sgoss66]

Elad --

You are right -- if I were hunting farm fields or woods with little trash, I'd have sens. up as high as possible. However, when hunting iron-trashed areas, the iron falsing is OUT OF CONTROL when running sens. that high. The machine goes crazy with high-tone iron falses, on every sweep.

In any case, I am glad to hear another obviously experienced user saying that 8-10" or so is the MAX that can be expected on a dime/penny. Confirms, for me, what I find in my ground as the deepest possible detection depth with an Explorer.

Steve

 

[EtracTom-AdirondacksNY]

Steve lots of good info here for you and I agree with all of it pretty much especially SteveMS who has really been helping you out. Sometimes I think we really are trying too darn hard to find those elusive coins we imagine are there for one reason or another but they really aren't sometimes. Bryce's soil is way different than yours and mine rich black good soil with low mineralization is how I heard it descibed one time but ours is fairly mineralized based on other detectors I have and the ground setting they give after being ground ballanced 85+. He gest deep 10-12" coins where as we may not as ours don't sink that far. Most coins here like others have said are 6-8" deep and not too much more. I only have found 2 coins deeper one an Indian Head Penny 11" deep and a Barber quarter found with my EX2 that burried the depth meter 12" but who knows if it really is that deep unless we actually take a tape measure and measure them.

I think the suggestion of a smaller coil is the absolute best advice for you since you say that this 120 yr old park is really trashy. I went over a small park near here with my stock 11" pro coil then my 8" sunray and now finally I'm hitting it with my 6x8" sef and 5" sunray and I still find coins hidden so with less targets under the coil to see you should have a better time of it for now till you clean out some of the targets then deepers can be focused on if they are there.

Nails still give me fits but I don't mind digging them for the learning experience. I like you with my Etrac KNOW I'm trying to force a signal to be a good signal that isn't one most of the time. The signal will false off the ends of nails and may null if going 90 degrees and resweeping or it may still give a good sounding signal but when you PINPOINT it it will be in a different spot so pretty much a dead giveaway. I also hit one button and go to quick mask wide open and look at the cursor and if it's down in the bottom right corner and stays there it's iron no matter what the sound is singing out to me. I will whole heartedly agree that a coin sound will be a better sound than an iron nail sound it's smoother less choppy screetchy even on silver.
Just sometimes those nails sound so good to me but the other things give them away most of the time. If the soil is pretty wet it's harder to distinguish them from coins. There may not be the coins there that you think are supposedly there.

Nulling it still will signal a good target within reason unless it's a big/bad object. When you get one of those prolonged nulls switch to pinpoint and go over the area and see how big that object is and you will not have those doubts and thoughts much longer. If it's small like a nail that's fine you will see/hear a coin most times in a null but if it's a big hunk of iron the detector isn't going to even see anything through that no matter what your settings neither will anyone else's untill it's removed from the ground. I have a large iron spike I tried to dig up that's about 8"-10" long in my front yard that gives a long null over it so no way a coin under or next to that is going to have a chance. It's just too overpowering of an object.

 

[sgoss66]

Appreciate the additional thoughts, Tom. Good stuff.

Steve