Depth issues...

[sgoss66]

Folks:

I have some depth questions.

I understood before purchasing that the Explorers are DEEP machines.

As much as I LOVE me SE Pro, I am having issues with depth. I am not finding coins deeper than about 6" in the field. To try and help figure this out -- I briefly hit the test garden last night. We have finally had some rain (we were in a drought when I got the machine -- bone-dry ground, so I didn't even bother with the garden -- in terms of testing the machine's depth). But now, with the moist soil, I thought I would see if I could figure anything out.

I do know all about the "disturbed soil" issues in test gardens, and how they are not "real-world" scenarios. And, I only spent about 20 minutes -- I was short on time, but thought I could at least do a little testing. After doing so, it confirmed the issues I feel I'm having -- just like my "in the field" experience, this machine did not "shine" in the test garden, either (in terms of depth). Coins deeper than 6" get pretty shaky, in terms of Co/Fe numbers -- VERY VERY VERY bouncy. Further, 8" coins are real iffy, and 10" coins are getting close to being "invisible." The 12" coins are pretty much un-detectable. Honestly, I can get better depth with my Gold Bug Pro, and got WAY better depth with my old F70. (As an aside, on my "nail on top of coin" 6-inch deep "complex" targets -- which my Gold Bug Pro will at LEAST give me peeps of high tone, the Explorer simply nulled...no matter how slow of a "Minelab wiggle" I'd use, or from what angle; opening it up into an open screen in IM, I heard the target of course, but it was pure iron ID -- 30-28, 31-30, those type of numbers).

It's not just a matter of settings, I don't think. I am pretty comfortable with settings at this point, and understanding the implications of what the different settings do. I am running gain 8, variability 10, limits 10, thresh. tone 1, conductive sounds, barely audible threshold...I ran through several settings combinations last night; I could only get the deeper (8-10" coins) by running manual sensitivity, basically maxed out -- in the 30 to 32 range. Recovery set at "DEEP" helped give a little more depth; however, the problem is that I can almost NEVER run "maxed out" (upper 20s to low 30s manual sensitivity) in the field. If I run manual, I usually can't run ANY HIGHER than mid 20s, to keep even a SEMI-stable threshold. Often, I'm even forced into semi-auto sensitivity. In my garden, finding coins that were getting "iffy" in terms of signal, while in manual sensitivity, would then DISAPPEAR when switching to semi-auto sens -- which again, helps to show me why I'm not hitting deep coins "in the field." My point is, it seems I have to run this thing about as hot as possible to even SEE the semi-deep coins; further, they are not IDing well at depth, and bottom line is, running this hot is NOT practical in most real-world scenarios. Finally, even running maxed out sensitivity, I STILL can't get the performance on my deepest coins that I could with my old F70. This is NOT what I expected, from all the raves about depth that I heard from Explorer users prior to my purchase. So, I'm wondering about this particular machine.

Again, I KNOW about the limitations of a test garden, and it is, indeed, a relatively new garde. BUT -- comparing in a fairly "apples to apples" way, with other machines, on the same coins, in the same test garden, this machine is NOT as deep as the F70, and only MAYBE as deep as the Gold Bug Pro.

Now, I am NOT bashing this machine. It is a silver KILLER! But, I have heard raves about the depth of these machines, and I'm just not seeing it. FWIW, I'm in red clay soil, fairly mild mineralization. I'm running a used machine, with the Pro coil. I guess my concern is that maybe my machine has an issue. I know some machines are simply "hotter" than others as the come off the "assembly line;" I wonder if I may have gotten a bit of a "lemon" in terms of being a deep-seeking unit. I have never used another Explorer, so I have nothing to compare to. I simply know that this unit is not meeting the expectations I had with respect to depth. Can anyone give me some un-biased commentary? Should a 10" silver quarter be screaming at me? Or, should I be struggling to hear it, and struggling to ID it? Like I say, I have had the unit about month, and have found it to be DEADLY on coins 6" and less. But, my brief test-garden testing confirms what I have experienced in the field -- which is, to get ANY depth that is even CLOSE to what I call respectable, I have to run it about as hot as possible; and since that is not practical in most spots I hunt, I am finding the machine to be pretty limited in terms of max depth.

Any help, anyone? Again, I'm trying to somehow determine if I may have a "cold" machine, that may be in need of some sort of a "tune-up." With nothing to compare to (I've never used an Explorer), I have no way of knowing.

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Hotcz70]

Leave deep OFF...put your sensitivity to manual 26...and jack the gain to 10 as I suggested in an earlier post.....and then see if the SE will hammer those 8" coins in your garden.

 

[sgoss66]

Will do, Bryce. I will set exactly as you said, and do some more thorough testing with it set up that way. I'll post more thorough results when I do.

A question (for understanding purposes), what do you find that you don't like, about deep=ON? I have never run my machine that way while hunting, so I have no experience with it; I only did that for testing purposes in the garden. I think you've explained this before, but what is it about deep=ON that you find you don't like?

Steve

 

[Hotcz70]

Option A: Deep ON slows down the reaction time of the signal and target ID. It also "enhances" the original signal which to me sounds a bit distorted.

Option B: Gain at 10 leaves the original signal alone ("high warble")...BUT amplifies that possibly weak and faint signal to as loud as it can be heard.

I'll take option B

 

[sgoss66]

I like option B, too!

Sounds though, from your description of how it works, that Deep=ON could possibly be a tool to use when you hit an "iffy" deeper target in a less trashy area; would "checking out" that specific target with deep=ON possibly give some additional ID-type info which could help in a dig vs. no dig decision? I'm guessing you get plenty of dig/no-dig info without using that , but could it be a tool for a less-experienced user to use on a specific target, in making that dig/no dig decision? I know on one of my other, former machines, that it had a "deep" or "slow" process which I would occasionally switch to briefly, to try and acquire additional info on a particular, deep target...

Steve

 

[Hotcz70]

Steve....sure it can be used as a secondary aid to help ID an iffy signal.

Me personally though....I don't like to change any setting that can even slightly alter the "sweet" sound I have trained my ears to hear unless I absolutely have to.

The key to the explorers is only 50% settings. The other 50% is simply beating that SAME sweet sound YOU hear with whatever settings you use...into your head. Once you have more time on the machine you'll know what I'm talking about.

I have a certain sound I personally hear over deep coins because of the settings I run and have not changed in nearly 4 years.

I can be nearly falling asleep at the wheel at a site for over an hour...but when my coil passes over what I feel is a deep coin...the SE stops me in my tracks.

It does so because I have stuck 100% with my settings and have not altered them... which allows me to hear the exact same signal over deepies on each and every hunt.

I'm not saying to NOT possibly put fast on in high trash sites...but I don't even do that because fast ON changes what I've trained my ears to hear. It chops the "sweet warble" short and I don't like it. I simply slow down even further in trash sites and stick with my exact settings.

It works for me...so I have no need to change it.

Just my personal opinion and advice to someone learning the machine.

 

[sgoss66]

Bryce --

I fully and completely agree with what you are saying...it makes total sense, and I was thinking exactly the same way when I got the machine. It seemed to me that I should set up anything that affected the "tones" and leave it there -- forever -- so that, like you said, I could train my brain in a consistent way. I think I will set my gain at 10, and leave it there from now on, and then not change any "tone" settings. I was unaware that Deep=ON affected tones. The repetition of the same sound over and over again makes complete sense to me.

One question along those lines, though...

Do you ever encounter an extremely trashy site that is IRON trash, where you will decide to open up your screen completely (instead of your normal IM 22), and switch to ferrous tones -- just for that specific locale? I know that is 100% OPPOSITE of the "never change your tonal settings" mentality, but I can see that approach making sense in a rare circumstance. I could see switching from the "User A" setup (with conductive sounds and settings that never get changed, which I'd use 99% of the time), into a "User B" setup with FERROUS sounds...just to use on a rare, iron-infested site. I just wanted your thoughts on that approach; I can guess that your answer will simply be the same as you said above -- you like to NEVER change your tone settings, but thought I'd ask anyway

Steve

 

[Hotcz70]

No way Steve. I have 100% confidence that my SE will signal through the nulls and let me hear that deep coin.

I have no need to open my screen and use ferrous. I stay 100% out of discussions of "ferrous vs conductive" because I have proven over and over that my SE will hit an 8" to 10" coin in a dead null.

For me it's heaven to hear silence INSTEAD of a barrage of sounds....and trying to pick that one sound out of the zillion I'm hearing.

I hear nothing but silence in heavy iron but if the SE passes over a coin...it whines through the silence and sticks out like a sore thumb.

I know there are a lot of guys who switch over to ferrous/open screen in those instances...and it works well for them. It is just another proven method for some.

I stick with what works for me though...and have no problem hitting coins through the null. Much easier than trying to pick the good signal from all the crappy ones. Just my personal opinion

 

[sgoss66]

Great, informative answer.

I appreciate it, as always, sir!

Thanks --

Steve

 

[BJ in Okla.]

Bryce,
A couple of weeks ago, I found a place on a site, that had what looked like burn piles, where I found the 43 d quarter on top of the ground.
I tried to hunt it with my SE and 6 x 8 coil...It was one big null...I did see a tab with tail on top, this one came in, the 2nd one did not, I tried different ways.
This last Saturday I went back and raked a small spot with a pick, there were so many nails, and some were like 6" long....And as deep as you wanted to dig.
I am thinking no way can this be hunted, I think it would have to be sifted....
Have you ever hunted a place where your SE was in a null and you could not pick up something on top of the ground ????

HH..BJ

 

[Hotcz70]

I have honestly not ever set a coin on the ground to find out so my answer is no.

I have however on many occasions popped out a coin when in fact I know it's got iron beneath or by it because the whole area around and including the hole is a long dead null after I sweep the coil once the coin is removed. The coin still came through on the SE though.

The site you are describing sounds like it is so heavily engulfed in iron that you would have no choice but to try ferrous with the wide open screen and see how it works for you.

 

[sgoss66]

OK Bryce...

Did what you suggested. I set my machine up the same way you use yours, I think...most of it already was already set up using your settings, but I was using the factory coins program instead of IM 22 (so I put it in IM 22), and I was using gain 8 instead of 10, so I set it to 10. I had variablility and limits at 10, sens. I put at manual 26 per your suggestion, th. tone was at 1, etc.

My machine did a pretty decent job. Six inch coins, easy detection, clear and accurate tones, perfect ID. Eight inch coins, easy detection, PRETTY good tones, PRETTY good ID. The 8" silver quarter was a bit jumpy ID-wise (for some reason; the 8" clad was fine), but overall I could coax a nice digital ID on all my 8"-9" coins, and a good warble tone in at least SOME sweep directions. Ten inch coins got more iffy; my 10" silver quarter was probably "detectable" if I was in the field (i.e. didn't know it was there), the ten inch silver dime was "iffy" as to whether I'd have found it (not knowing it was there). Most likely, I would not have found it. The 10" clad quarter I would have found. A nine inch penny I would have found. My twelve inch coins (penny, nickel, clad quarter) were barely, if at all, giving an occasional chirp. NO WAY do I find those if I didn't know they were there. Even pinpoint could barely, if at all, hear them.

Having said that, for a new test garden, I was pretty pleased. I am confident that if those were targets that I did not "know" were there, I would have hit all the 8" targets, good chance on the 10" quarters, 25% chance maybe on the 10" dime. The 12" coins were a no-go. In the field, on a long-buried 12" quarter, I could see it possibly hitting better, to where I may have been able to dig it. My 12" clad quarter would very occasionally give a nice chirp and ID, but it was infrequent; I will guess it would have been better if it was long-buried, in un-disturbed ground.

I noticed that running sensitivity up to 30 to 32 on the deeper, "iffy" targets, I could improve the response of the machine somewhat. Maxed out at 32 manual, I could get better response on the 10" to 12" coins, to the point where I may have improved my chances to 50/50 on finding the 10" silver dime, and maybe could have been lucky (50%?) and hit the 12" quarter (in a scenario where I didn't know it was there). Again, though, running sens. that high in the field is WAY unstable, in most cases, and the iron falsing gets ridiculous, as you know!

One other note -- it is a pretty big difference to me, running IM 22 versus the coins program. Reason being, the FE numbers are much more jumpy on the deep coins. This seems to be because deep coins, in my garden at least, give alot of higher ferrous numbers, BUT, when running the coins program, I'm not SEEING those higher ferrous numbers (they are disced out -- and thus are brief nulls). However, in the IM 22 screen, I am SEEING all those higher FE numbers. I was actually SHOCKED at how high, FE number-wise, my deeper coins would produce. The result was, my machine was usually giving a steady CO number in the mid to upper 20s, but the ferrous numbers were jumping from the low single digits VERY RAPIDLY into the teens and 20s, and then back down -- so quickly that you could never get a steady FE number that you could even READ. I did not switch over to the smartfind screen, and should have (forgot to), but if I had, this would have resulted, obviously, in a cursor jumping back and forth across the top of the screen, from the upper right corner over toward the upper left corner, and then back again, in a very rapid "dance". I guess this is the "top of the screen cursor bounce" that you guys talk about?

Bottom line, IM 22 would be an adjustment for me. I was used to the "appearance" of much more stable FE numbers (since I was simply not seeing those higher FE numbers that deeper coins were giving me, as they are "disced-out" in the factory coins program). You feel, though, Bryce, that the IM 22 is better than the coins program (you feel it is optimal, in terms of minimizing falsing), so I may try to get used to that instead of the factory coins program.

I feel much better about the depth capability of this machine. Still not quite as deep as the F70, at least in my garden, but plenty deep, and again, it KILLS the silver, as we all know! I'll take it! Lesson learned? If the depth indicator is reading deep, dig more of the jumpy, less consistent targets, especially if you get even a few PEEPS of a good "warble" tone. While test gardens are NOT perfect, they do serve a valuable purpose when learning a machine.

Thank you, Bryce.

Steve

 

[Hotcz70]

Sounds like it made quite an improvement for you Steve

Yep...put the iron mask at 22 then switch back to the smart screen...which should show about the left 1/3 of the screen blacked out...and all other settings leave as you said.

PS: As soon as you are able to quit worrying about the numbers...and I mean "cold turkey".;..you will begin to learn the SE much better because you will be concentrating fully on what the cursor movement...flutter...dance...etc...is telling you.

I dont want to hear "no more" talk about what the ferrous numbers...conduct numbers...etc...are doing.

 

[sgoss66]

Old habits die hard, I guess, Bryce! I got used to "numbers" on all the other machines I've used, and it is comfortable to me. Plus, I think it's that "scientist brain" thing. I like precision; numbers (though we all know they jump all over the place and are thus "imprecise") at least "suggest" precision to my warped brain! That smartfind screen, and a cursor moving around on a matrix? There is much more of an "art" to interpreting that, and I think my brain takes longer to adjust to that kind of presentation of data.

Seriously, I will start at 50/50 smartfind/digital, in a move toward leaving my digital "safe haven" and moving toward the smartfind screen -- not sure I can do "cold turkey" just yet. You swear by it, though, so I'll do it. In the mean time, while making the transition, I promise not to talk "numbers" to you anymore!

But yes, doing things the way you suggested made quite an improvement. Thanks for that. I'm looking forward to this "sort of new" approach for Saturday's hunt. Guess I had to convince myself, and your suggestion run through my test garden did that. Thanks!

Steve

P.S. you know, in all seriousness, I think the E-Trac way of showing both digital AND smartfind is the best of both worlds. Maybe on the Explorer IV?

 

[Steve(MS)]

Smartfind is the way to go, at least for me and many others.
Don't get too caught up in using your test plot to expect what your detector
will do on a hunt. Explorers don't like partially disturbed ground.
The best way to compare detectors is in the field on an actual
hunt and mark signals then dig them up.
That supposes that one is fairly competent with each detector
especially when dealing with those deep or fringe signals.
HH

 

[sgoss66]

Hey, Steve. Great advice, thanks.

I have a couple of friends who use E-Tracs, and one who uses an SE Pro. They are good at picking out those deep goodies; I will ask each of them on our next hunt that -- if they hit what they think is a particularly deep coin, to mark it, and let me swing my machine over it. We used to do this when I was learning to use my machine, to get used to the tones; it will be good to do it in this case, to understand how my machine responds in particular to deep targets.

I realize the limitations of the test garden -- doing this (checking previously marked targets) will help out immensely. Thanks for the suggestion and I'll put it to use on Saturday.

Steve

 

[cdsmith46]

I just want to say that this back and forth between Goss, Bryce, and Steve is something that should be read by many, and even reprinted. I think that it's fantastic and downloaded it in its entirety for future reference. Kudos to all involved!
Chuck Smith

 

[sgoss66]

Thanks Chuck, for the kind words!

I'm glad that this conversation (though long-winded on my part!) can also help others. That's what's so great about these forums -- guys like Bryce and others patiently sharing their hard-earned experience with less-experienced users like myself REALLY helps to shorten the learning curve, and then having it "archived" for others to read and use in the future is just terrific!

Steve

 

[Steve(MS)]

that's a good idea to go with your ML friends.
So at least you are aware that the Explorer and Etrac do good in the turf and ought
to at least answer part of your questions, make sure yours can hit the same items as the other Explorer.
Don't be shy to ask them what their settings are since they are in your area and
more than likely successful.
Beg, borrow and steal any info you can get from them and ask them how they tell nail chirps from the deep coins.
Heck, offer to buy a meal....

I have been curious about some of these newer lightweight units, like yours.
Since I am getting older and a little more feeble, I plan on trying something
along those lines....but we will get together on the appropiate forums for
more discussion.
HH

 

[sgoss66]

Steve --

My friends are REALLY helpful, and when we can actually get together, they are more than willing to help out and share their knowledge. I definitely take advantage of their experience whenever I can. I plan to do so tomorrow, and I'll see what I can learn.

As for the lighter machines -- let's chat on the appropriate forums or PMs. I'd be glad to help if I can...

Steve