Depth difference

[John-Edmonton]

You are right.....longest day of the year puts extra demands on our hormones. We are truly lucky on this forum. Some of the "goings on" on some of the other forums are like downright swearing at each other! I think I will go out and detect for a couple hours to cool my jets, and remind myself that is only a hobby.

Thanks for kindly putting things into perspective Dick......

 

[Rickday]

John
I know Chuck and hunt with him. I have never met a more sincere and honest person. I do not own a Garrett detector. I have owned White's detectors since 1980. A couple years ago, I owned a White's XLT and was thinking about upgrading to a new brand name or the DFX for the purpose of gaining more depth. I made the mistake of buying into the biased claims on the DFX forum and it cost me a grand. If the people that pay the bills don't like posts about the competition they can close this forum completely or make it only for people who have a Garrett receipt. And that would include Chuck. As for you John, this is the USA. Freedom of speech is for every person not just for people that conform to what you think.
Rick

 

[Uncle Willy]

Guess I'll add my two cents to this discussion. I've been in this hobby for 42 years, written about it for twenty some years, and field tested a slug of metal detectors. I've heard all the stories about fabled depths and wonderous finds. Detecting is 10% machine and 90% operator. I don't know what kind of Garrett you have been using or what kind of ground you hunt in but 12 inches is not a problem for the high end Garretts.

A few years back I dug three Barber coins buried under a tree root at a measured 14 inches with my 2500. I do a lot of playgrounds and here the bark chips are 16 to 20 inches or more deep and I constantly pull coins at ten inches plus with any of my Garretts, including the 250. If the Minelab was so spectacular then it would be the top selling detector in the world but it is far from it. Right now the sales of Garretts are so hot they are doubling the size of their factory and they can't make the 250 fast enough.

Detecting is a hobby and a lot of fun -not a contest between machines. When someone tells me how deep their machine will go I could care less because I'm not in a contest to find the deepest coin on the planet. I just want get out in the sunshine and enjoy myself, have a good time, get some exercise, and bring a few goodies home.

Bill

 

[John D.]

Amen, You are right on target, Uncle Willy.
No pun intended!!
Your Friend.
John D.

 

[Skillet]

Personally, I kinda' like hearing about comparative testing between machines... I use machines of different makes, and they all have features and/or performance characteristics that make them the best choice (for me) for certain types of hunting... and NOT the best choice for others.

I currently have 3 Garretts and they're my favorites for hunting rings and clad as they target separate very well in modern trash and two of them have the TID that I've grown accustomed to over the years.

For hunting relics in heavy iron, I have other machines that seem to do better. I don't feel that my Garretts are inferior to my Tejon because they won't hit a nickel quite as deep... I'd never take my Tejon to the poolside and hunt for lady's rings in the middle of all the pulltabs. The 250 or 1000 handle that chore much better.

Just my opinion here and I don't want to offend anyone, but I get the impression that deerhunter24 wasn't necessarily touting the Minelab as the machine to beat all machines. It seems that on the site where he was hunting, it simply got better depth than his Garrett did.

But depth isn't everything... if I could just have everything in the top six inches, I'd retire a millionaire tomorrow!

Peace
Skillet

 

[NM5K]

I like hearing the comparisons too... I also don't feel
that he was trying to bash Garrett, just reporting what
he is seeing... But....
You have to be careful about hunting reports on their
own... Mainly cuz a lot is the operator.. What I think
is actually more useful are direct head to head comparisons,
in test beds, or on objects where one can test, then the
other can test, and *then* they dig it to see whats what..
Thats a true test. But just going to a park and having good
luck with one, but maybe not the other, is not too conclusive
if they hunted different areas, etc..
You see this a lot in radio when comparing antennas.
IE: a 1/2 wave dipole fed with coax will show appx 95+ %
in efficiency on HF. In other words, the efficiency can not really
be beat, and that antenna makes a good benchmark for comparions.
Now, you will see people running less efficient antennas, and
they still do quite well. After all, most any will radiate
enough to make contacts. After a while , they start to believe
their less efficient antenna system is equal to the 1/2 wave
dipole, cuz after all they are making the same contacts.
But...Do a direct head to head comparison using an antenna
switch to quickly switch while on the air, and the lesser
antenna will show it's true colors.
So, they might have thought they were going big guns,
but after getting whipped by the more efficient system,
they will see the true story.
But they wouldn't see this unless they did a direct head to
head comparison... Hopefully this story will make a little
sense... maybe not... Anyway, it's the direct head to head
comparisons that I pay attention to. Good hunting stories
alone can be misleading. All brands and machines will have
many cases of "good hunt" stories. I like to see direct
comparisons in controlled test envionments. Then the tests
actually mean something.
MK

 

[deerhunter24]

NM5K and Skillet,

Thank you for your replies. It is nice to hear some mindful thinking.

I was not trying to bash Garrett at all. Just trying to say that I have not found them to get the depth that some other machines, mainly only the Minelab Explorer II, is getting.

The fairgrounds that the two other guys and I were hunting was sort of like a "Test Garden." We went there 6 times this year together. Jim, the guy with the Minelab, was getting way more depth thatn we were. I use a Garrett and Rick has a White's DFX (White's top of the line machine.) We all hunt on zero discrimination in hopes that we can attain maximum depth. Rick wasn't finding squat and I was finding a few deep coins here and there (6-7 inches). Jim was finding 35-50 old coins every time we went. He would actually locate what he thought was a coin and call me and Rick over. Most of the time neither of our machines would even beep at all. I'd say 60% of the time neither of our machines would even beep at all. 30% of the time we'd get slight beeps, but they were reported as trashy iron targets on both of our machines. About 10% of the time the sound would be broken up, but we would get good sounding beeps. UNfortunately, we just didn't find them before Jim did. And trust me, he probably called us over at least 10 times on every hunt, the times when he was pretty sure that they were coins. We watched in amazement as probably 90% or better of these particular digs turned out to be coins. Mainly wheaties and silver. That was amazing to me and is the only reason I felt obligated to share.

So far, I have not heard anyone argue with me that Garrett's machines are picking up coins at 7-12" on a consistent basis. To be honest...I've never seen a machine do it until the Minelab Explorer.

Now, I am a realistic person and I realize that every machine as well as each detectorist have their limits. I in no way was trying to bash garrett or their equipment at all. I love my machine. There are plenty of places where I go and find plenty of goodies. From 5" and up I think it's one of the best machines on the market. And...I think that the target imaging is an amazing feature that is accurate more than 90% of the time. It's kept me from digging trash in a lot of areas, in fact most areas.

My only point is that if I purchased another machine, I would probably purchase one that I knew, as a consumer and as a detectorist,
would go DEEPER. Now the only hunting I really do is for coins (and of course Deer). That doesn't mean that I would hang up the old trusty GTI 1500. It just means that I would have a machine more for clad (the 1500) and a machine for depth (Explorer). What the hell is wrong with owning two machines, made by two different companies, designed to do two different types of hunting. In my mind...that just makes me a smart treasure hunter. Hopefully, that make me even more successful than I am.

I just think that some people on here are unfair to suggest that I am making false claims or trying to hurt Garrett's reputation, or that I am concerned with depth and nothing else. And I think its unfair that people don't want to hear positive things about other brands of machines or faults against the ones they own.

I am sorry for any misunderstandings that I may have conveyed, but I do plan to purchase a Minelab Explorer II in the next year or so and keep my Garrett. I know I will still make plenty of good finds with both. But most importantly...I will have fun in the search. And that is what its all about my friends...the thrill of the hunt and the hopes for finding your treasure, whatever that might be.

 

[deerhunter24]

I agree with you about fabled myths of depths because I never thought a detector would locate coins at 10 or 12 inches. I thought they were all full of crap...until I have been seeing two of my freinds find coins consistently at these depths for the past several months.

Just so you know...I hunt with a GTI 1500. My best friend hunts with a 2500. We both buried a Morgan Silver dollar at a measured 12 inches deep. Neither of our machines would pick it up.

I want to know how you are finding dimes and quarters and 12 or 14 inches deep. I know several people on several forums who hunt with both the GTI 1500 and 2500. I have asked or seen the depths that these people are claiming to find coins. Not one has ever claimed to find a coin deeper than 8 inches with it.

Your buddy John from Edmonton even made a test garden and said that his machine wouldn't pick up a silver quarter at 10 inches. At 8" he said it sounded and registered like junk or iron.

So if you are telling me that your Garrett's are finding coins twice as deep as mine is...PLEASE TELL ME HOW. I will be truly grateful. The GTI's don't even have that much that you can tweak. I hunt in zero discrimination all the time. Most of the places I hunt are fairgrounds, old homes, etc. The coins at the fairgrounds seem to be pretty deep. Most of the time, these areas only allow me to hunt with the sensitivity set at 9. Sometimes I have to back it down to 8. I don't think tone or threshhold adjustments are going to get me much depth if any. So Willy, let me know your settings or how you are able to find these coins at these amazings depths because I don't know anyone else in the Garrett community who it finding coins this deep. I've dug trash such as cans and large pieces of iron that registered were 12 ot 18" deep. I just don't see that thing picking up the coins at that depth.

I found a Seated Dime at 7 inches last year. It was in thick black undisturbed soil. It was dated 1876 and grade in Extremely Fine. My machine amazing picked up this coin, but did not give me a depth, any indication of size (on treasure imaging). I couldn't really even pinpoint it all. I hit it from various angles, but decided to dig anyway. When I took out the plug (with about 4 inches of soil attached), I was able to pinpoint it. It was reading 6-7 inches and said B-sized target. The reading was obviously more clear. However, this was under nearly perfect conditions. I am just wondering how you are finding the same types of coins at double the depth??? Please tell me how because I am getting my butt kicked at this one particular fairgrounds. These other guys are averaging 30-50 good finds a piece each trip and my best day was 8 good finds.

Thanks,

Chuck

 

[Uncle Willy]

Yeah I didn't figire he was beating the drum for Minelab either. Every machine has its pros and cons and I've used a slug of them starting out with a Metrotech in 1963. Used Compass and Tesoro for years. Had one Bounty Hunter BFO way back that wouldn't detect a cannon ball in a tub of oatmeal. Had a Fisher 441 ( straight VLF ) that would detect a coin halfway to China and also the head off a nail at the same distance.

Bill

 

[Uncle Willy]

Hi bud,
I own six Garretts including the 1500 and 2500 and if any of them couldn't pull a coin past eight inches I would throw them away. Have you run any air tests to see what your Garrett will do. There's something wrong somewhere if eight inches is tops for you. I dug a quarter in a ball field today at about nine inches plus with my 250 with the sensitivity at 50%.

You must have some rotten soil or something but our soil here is all volcanic so it ain't no picnicto detect in. I might offer you some things to try. If you scan fast slow way down as the response and recovery on GTI's is slow. Where do you run your sensitivity? If it's high drop it down to 6 or 6.5. Do you scrub your coil? If so, raise it up and run it at least an inch off the ground.

As for the Morgan dollar you probably wouldn't have picked it up if you had buried it at six inches. Virtually all freshly buried coins are difficult to impossible to detect due to an effect known as " Metallurgical Phenomenon."

Accuracy on all readings diminishes with depth and most everything peters out at a given depth. Almost all detectors can detect deeper than they can ID.

If the guys you are hunting with are averaging 3-4 times more coins than you then they are passing there coil over that many more than you. Are all their depths on these coins within reason and within the capability of your machine? I think what you need to do is try a few of the things I mentioned then slow down and take your time and overlap your sweeps. At peak depth your detector is only covering an area the size of a half dollar - not the size of your coil so you can miss a whole lot of real estate several inches down unless you're careful in how you scan.

Bill

Bill

 

[ohio fred]

n/t

 

[Rickday]

Bill,
Which metallurgical phenomenom are you referring to amelioration, recrystallization or some other. Please specify.
Rick

 

[deerhunter24]

Hey Willy,

Thanks. I assure you that 90% of the areas that I hunt require to me to work slow. My max depth isn't even 8 inches. I would say that most of the time my max depth is 6 inches. I have found a few coins at 7 inches. My friend with the 2500 hasn't found a coin past 6 or 7 inches either.

I know about the Morgan Dollar being freshly buried, but we did leave it in the ground for about a month and still couldn't pick it up. Perhaps that wasn't enough time.

However, I have air tested the machine quite often when I first got it. But how does that really help. If I can air test it to pick up a quarter at 8 or 10 inches...big deal. That quarter pops off because their is nothing between it. That coin is coming up at 8 inches when its in the ground.

Believe me though, I hunt slow. In fact I hunt so slow that pull tabs give me a good reading when they are 5-8 inches deep. They pop off like a penny, dime, quarter. The slower I go, the better they sound. No I am also wondering why my machines report these deep pull tabs as good. As well as Nickels. I found a liberty nickel, 2 buffalos, and a war nickel all in the same day at about 6 inches deep. They were ringing off like a penny/dime. I don't know why that happens.

However, I have air tested the machine (which I don't think is any indication of the depth the machine is actually capable of finding the coin at), I work the areas slow, etc.

Last question I have is...are you telling me that a sensitvity of 6 or 6.5 will find coins deeper than a sensitivity of 9? Or just as deep. When you are in an area with low trash what is your sensitivity set at. That is...when you are in an area that you are trying to go deep in. Also, what is your sensitivity set at when you are hunting more trashy areas.

Thanks again,

Chuck

 

[Uncle Willy]

One thing about sensitivity. When you crank it up to make the coil sensitive to the target you want you also make it sensitive to everything else in the ground including mineralization.

One guy awhile back took my advice on sensitivity and went back to a park he had hammered for years and found a bunch of old coins he had missed before. It's like the little 250, most users run the sensitivity at 50% because any higher and it gets squirrely.

As for air testing it isn't conclusive but will give you a general idea how your detector should perform under ideal conditions. Which coil are you using, the Scorcher or the new PROformance? Have you also considered sending your machine in for a check up and tune up.

Contact Mary Penson at maryp@garrett.com and describe to her your problems with depth. You might also consider using the DD coil if your ground is highly mineralized. I have a field test on that one at losttreasure.com The coils the other guys are using are most likely DD's. DD's cover the ground from the front tip of the coil to the back tip. The signal is about 2-3 inches wide and wedge shaped so it penetrates mineralized ground with absolute coverage. If you have the Garrett 14 incher then it covers 14 inches with each sweep. Most of the difference in depth between your detector and the other guys detectors are in the size of the coils - not the detector.

Bill

Bill

When I hunt in trash I hunt in low sensitivity with the coil one to two inches off the ground

 

[Uncle Willy]

I don't know what the specific term is but neither of those apply. When you upset or destroy the ground matrix and reconstitute the composition and design of the ground strata it effects the way the detector signal is attracted and received. Best way I can explain it.

Bill

 

[Rickday]

Bill
So, would you say that it deactivates the halochemical process.
Rick

 

[NM5K]

It might could use a little tweaking. But I'd try an
air test just to see what it does in the air.
Heck, the 250 I have air hits on a quarter out to 10-11
inches with the big coil. Course, that might vary with
the grounds. But as an example, my sniper air tests to
5.5-6 inches, and I've found coins at 5-6 inches with it.
So in that case, my coin finds have matched the air tests
with that particular coil. My ground may be pretty good
though. If he did an air test, and had trouble hitting a
quarter past 6-7-8 inches with a decent size coil, I'd
probably get it checked. In theory, the 2500 should kick
the 250's rear when it comes to absolute depth, assuming
an appx equal size coil. And Garrett claims that also in
their comparison guide on their website. They show the
2500 going a good bit deeper than the 250 with their bar
graph.
MK

 

[Uncle Willy]

If the coin had a halo it is completely destroyed. It's like a pocket of rust that your detector signals on then when you dig for the suspected target you destroy the rust pocket and the signal disappears.

Bill

 

[Rickday]

Bill,
I know what your saying. I have dug my share of these phantom signals. However, these coins are destroyed by a low Ph in the soil zinc and steel pennies probably anything under 7.0 at Ph 3.5 aluminum
will begin to dissolve pull tabs ect., Soil Ph that would dissolve copper,silver, brass, gold are not known to exist on this planet. A coin buired in the ground for a period of time in solution will have released molecules that with moisture are connected to give the halochemical effect. This effect allows us to find coins deeper in field capacity soils than we would in dry soils. Thus , a freshly buried coin would not have a "Halo". The halo can be affected by other factors beside ground moisture such as salinity and iron molecules. I'm not trying to be some kind of a know it all here. I'm just trying to understand what's going on in the soil. I have a degree in Horticulture MSU and I am an avid detectorist. Rick