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CTX 3030 Combined Mode Ferrous line

foreign object said:
If you are running a wide open screen ferrous coin has no advantage as you have nothing disc.out.

Advantage over what? I am thinking maybe you mean High Trash Setting has no advantage in open screen as you did not discriminate anything telling the detector what you dont want. Thus the detector can not use the high trash setting feature of
ignoring a stronger unwanted signal and picking out the desirable signal at the same time, a signal that is a weaker signal compared to the undesirable signal.
 
huntingdog1 said:
Anyone out there care to speak of how they like combined mode using 50 conductive tones, or can the detector even do that ?

Can't do that. Both are Tone ID Profiles. Selection of the Profile Type dictates how many different tonal responses there are while detecting. The available options are:
•• 1 – all targets emit a single tone
•• 2 CO – targets can be two tones depending on their Co reading
•• 2 FE – targets can be two tones depending on their Fe reading
•• 4 CO – targets can be four tones depending on their Co reading
•• 4 FE – targets can be four tones depending on their FE reading
•• 35 FE – targets can be 35 tones depending on their FE reading
•• 50 – targets can be 50 tones depending on their CO reading
•• Combined – a combination of FE/CO tones
 
HuntingDog, thanks for clearing up that you are talking about Ferrous Coin not High Trash. The behavior of the Fe number is highly affected by which of those two modes you are in, FC or HT. As several have pointed out, in FC, the Fe number is much more constant and is brought up to at or near 12 almost all the time, but in HT, the Fe number bounces around a lot more.

My observations are that in FC, the Fe number is brought to 12 even on what turns out to be iron. So I think the idea behind FC is to let more ferrous targets come in and then the operator has to chose. Sure, more targets sound and look good, but it's only because the machine is bring most of the iron Fe numbers up to 12. FC is no magic bullet in the iron, at least as far as the audio goes.

The TID screen indications are a little more interesting. In High Trash, the curser moves rapidly around, sometimes clearly along a line. Ferrous Coin changes that high speed flickering to forming two blobs about where the ends of the line would be in High Trash, making it a bit easier to see. Some say this is two targets being seen simultaneously, but I've found that if there are two blobs formed, one in the coin area and one in the ferrous area, it's still almost always a ferrous object. The blob in the coin area is just the iron false being tracked.

I'm really not sure what the advantage is to Ferrous Coin. All it seems to do is make the Fe number fluctuate much less, but that doesn't mean the Fe number is any more accurate. Ferrous Coin just takes the Fe number and moves it to 12 and takes it out of the analysis and makes you have to rely much more on just the Conductive number by itself.

By the way, I have two main modes I hunt in: usually mostly in Ferrous Coin, combined audio, and open screen with the Fe tone at 23. I have a second mode that I go too to check targets by hitting the User button, and that is High Trash, 4-tone conductive audio, and open screen. Both modes have a second Disc pattern disc'ing out everything under 23 for when the iron tones get too much. I find Ferrous Coin generally gives me cleaner audio but also makes me dig more iron junk - the iron junk is easier to identify in High Trash where the Fe numbers will bounce more down into the Fe area (17-25, let's say) than the Ferrous Coin mode where no matter what the Fe number is usually 12. I go back and forth between the two modes on all targets I think might be a deep coin so I can try to figure out of there is any advantage to one mode over the other and look for subtle differences.

Last thing: when in High Trash I keep the audio in 4-tone conductive instead of combined because with the bouncing Fe numbers, it's cleans up the audio a lot more. Then I just look at the screen and watch the Fe numbers to tell me if I have deep iron. It's still very tricky to tell the difference between deep iron and a deep coin. About one out of every ten deep (usually small) rusty iron object I dig up turns out to be a deep coin, and for the life of me I can't really tell any difference between a small deep rusty iron object and a coin no matter what I do :confused:. Maybe one out of ten targets turning out to be a deep coin is about as good as it gets. That's not really that bad of a ratio and maybe on a lesser detector, that ratio would be 1 out of 50? There are a lot of guys locally that hunt with the CTX in the same parks I do, so it's possible we've already cleaned out all the good sounding targets and only the iffy ones that sound like iron are left. It's very rare anymore to find a good deep coin out in the open all by itself, even the 7-8" deep coins that aren't being masked are few and far between. Most of my good finds are 7-8" deep *and* are being partially masked.
 
huntindog1 said:
foreign object said:
If you are running a wide open screen ferrous coin has no advantage as you have nothing disc.out.

Advantage over what? I am thinking maybe you mean High Trash Setting has no advantage in open screen as you did not discriminate anything telling the detector what you dont want. Thus the detector can not use the high trash setting feature of
ignoring a stronger unwanted signal and picking out the desirable signal at the same time, a signal that is a weaker signal compared to the undesirable signal.

Your are right I fat fingered the whole works.Meant to say high trash.

Thanks for catching that.
 
Like what I do with the Etrac I do with my CTX. I watch the cursor not so much the ferrous number. Say I'm in 50 conductive with the coin screen and I run High Trash mode mostly and I get a 43-45 conductive target it should be a dime but if the ferrous number is way off the 12 line and reads lower then 17 ferrous or so I go to the wide open screen and if I see that cursor dive into the bottom right corner of the screen and stay there under ferrous maybe 17-18 and higher towards the 35 bottom of the screen it's always iron junk. IF the cursor only goes about half way down towards the corner and tries to stay up about halfway off the bottom of the screen around ferrous 17-18 or less then it's probably a rusty corroded coin and usually is. So I mostly ignore the ferrous number all together and look for the cursor to tell me what it probably is. Should work the same in Combined mode as you can see the cursor there too. Running Ferrous coin instead of High Trash may be a bit different IF it tries to normalize the ferrous number towards that 12 line on these 2 machines. I mainly hunt in High Trash mode myself so the machine can distinguish what is probably good from a POSSIABLE BAD TARGET CO-LOCATED together. My soil here is high mineralization about 85-90 all the time so I haven't played with Ground coin much yet to see how that is as I went with what I knew worked and I was familiar with off my Etrac on the CTX.
 
Jason in Enid said:
I have mine set at 25 I think. Lowering the line will get you more coins, but it will increase the amount of iron bleed-though too. It's all a trade off, and you have to figure where your line of diminishing returns is at. There are multiple ways to ferret out the iron falses, and more you learn, the more open you can run your pattern.

I just moved my FE line to 35 from 24 because I wasn't finding anything anymore in a iron laced grassy area that I have been hunting for years with the ctx. As soon as I did that I started getting hits. Yes you dig a bit more small iron but its finding me coins. Yesterday I dug up 4 wheaties, 1 indian head cent, 3 v-nickels and a barber dime.
Compared to the other hunts that yielded a few wheaties. I put the head of a old square nail on top of a silver mercury dime and got a clear signal on FE 35, moved to FE 24 and the dime signal was gone I only heard the iron. I don't mind digging more as long as I'm finding coins maybe a gold coin!

HH
 
denny said:
Jason in Enid said:
I have mine set at 25 I think. Lowering the line will get you more coins, but it will increase the amount of iron bleed-though too. It's all a trade off, and you have to figure where your line of diminishing returns is at. There are multiple ways to ferret out the iron falses, and more you learn, the more open you can run your pattern.

I just moved my FE line to 35 from 24 because I wasn't finding anything anymore in a iron laced grassy area that I have been hunting for years with the ctx. As soon as I did that I started getting hits. Yes you dig a bit more small iron but its finding me coins. Yesterday I dug up 4 wheaties, 1 indian head cent, 3 v-nickels and a barber dime.
Compared to the other hunts that yielded a few wheaties. I put the head of a old square nail on top of a silver mercury dime and got a clear signal on FE 35, moved to FE 24 and the dime signal was gone I only heard the iron. I don't mind digging more as long as I'm finding coins maybe a gold coin!

HH

You are definitely mastering your machine! Congrats on pulling out so many more keepers!
 
Are you guys who have the Ferrous line set higher than 24-25 running high Manual Sensitivity? In all honesty,I've dug over 100 silver coins with the CTX and NEVER seen a Ferrous number higher than 14-15 that wound up being a silver coin. I've dug MANY of them with nails,beaver tails,other coins...I run High Trash separation and Auto+3 the vast majority of the time. With that being said,I do try to stay away from old farms and nasty cellar holes most of the time,maybe that's why I don't see any of it. I've dug a lot of stuff that hit good both ways with 20-26/32-49 type numbers and haven't pulled a coin yet. I just gave up on those targets. Am I daft?
 
I am a bit confused about what FE line is being moved here the FE line of the iron audio bin of the FE line on the screen disc pattern?

AJ
 
Yeah AJ,not sure...with me,Im in Combined with NO disc...FE set at 20 because nothing ever comes of setting it higher. Heck,nothing comes of it even running 20,all my silver coins have been 11-12-13/45,46,47 with a FEW exceptions that only varied by a couple of numbers. Certainly no numbers in the 20's for Ferrous...
Maybe it's due to running Auto and High Trash?? Beats me...if I see that Fe number go higher than 15 I'm already in trouble it seems.
 
IDXMonster :biggrin: good to know I am not the only one :bouncy:

i have my disc at 34 FE line and my iron bin at 24 FE line and use the 5 tone bins in Ferrous coin and pretty much only change a few things fast on/off etc as changes been like that for 5 years and i know what all the squeaks and groans mean :buds:

maybe i should fiddle more but well it works for me so why fiddle its like starting again..

anyway be nice to clear this one up thanks :biggrin:

AJ


IDXMonster said:
Yeah AJ,not sure...with me,Im in Combined with NO disc...FE set at 20 because nothing ever comes of setting it higher. Heck,nothing comes of it even running 20,all my silver coins have been 11-12-13/45,46,47 with a FEW exceptions that only varied by a couple of numbers. Certainly no numbers in the 20's for Ferrous...
Maybe it's due to running Auto and High Trash?? Beats me...if I see that Fe number go higher than 15 I'm already in trouble it seems.
 
I was assuming the discussion was changing the FE reject disc line, not the tone profile bin.

IDXMonster said:
Yeah AJ,not sure...with me,Im in Combined with NO disc...FE set at 20 because nothing ever comes of setting it higher. Heck,nothing comes of it even running 20,all my silver coins have been 11-12-13/45,46,47 with a FEW exceptions that only varied by a couple of numbers. Certainly no numbers in the 20's for Ferrous...
Maybe it's due to running Auto and High Trash?? Beats me...if I see that Fe number go higher than 15 I'm already in trouble it seems.

Yes, the vast majority of silver does fall along the FE-11 to FE-13 area (I disagree about it being in the CO 45-47 zone though). There is a strange effect, which also applies to other FBS machines, where co-located iron and conductive can give a visual conductive hit, but not the audio. Changing the disc line to a higher FE number lets those silent hits come through for some reason. I have ZERO idea why this happens, but I have seen it since the days of swinging the E-Trac.
 
From the discussions I've seen I was thinking silver would regularly be in the 44-45 region....it very well may be a slight discrepancy in the tuning of my specific machine. The rest makes sense now too. When I'm in those areas I'll have to adjust more....
 
IDXMonster said:
From the discussions I've seen I was thinking silver would regularly be in the 44-45 region....it very well may be a slight discrepancy in the tuning of my specific machine. The rest makes sense now too. When I'm in those areas I'll have to adjust more....

I have dug many silver coins in the CO 38-42 range.
If they are thin, small, deep, on edge or near trash both the FE and CO numbers can vary greatly.
Audio rules.

Bryan
 
I posted about the Combined mode FE Adio line about 5 months ago when I discovered running it in the wrong location can result in missed coins.
Here is a link to that thread. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?86,2325027,2325027#msg-2325027

Here is another story on how co located targets can mess with FE CO numbers.
Yesterday afternoon I was running the Etrac and came upon a nice little sqeak so I stopped to investigate.
The signal was a mess and I was finally able to isolate what I thought might be two objects.
One was clearly iron and the other was reading FE 26-29 CO 48-49 consitantly.
The audio was great once I isolated the target so I dug it out of curiosity.
To my surprise, out popped a Murcury dime! Neither the FE or CO numbers made sense for a silver dime.
This reinforced to me what I already knew. Trust the Audio. Not the numbers.

Bryan
 
Bryan V said:
I posted about the Combined mode FE Adio line about 5 months ago when I discovered running it in the wrong location can result in missed coins.
Here is a link to that thread. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?86,2325027,2325027#msg-2325027

Here is another story on how co located targets can mess with FE CO numbers.
Yesterday afternoon I was running the Etrac and came upon a nice little sqeak so I stopped to investigate.
The signal was a mess and I was finally able to isolate what I thought might be two objects.
One was clearly iron and the other was reading FE 26-29 CO 48-49 consitantly.
The audio was great once I isolated the target so I dug it out of curiosity.
To my surprise, out popped a Murcury dime! Neither the FE or CO numbers made sense for a silver dime.
This reinforced to me what I already knew. Trust the Audio. Not the numbers.

Bryan

Yep I understand a skewed anything can read way lower. I'm just hunting in a different way.
 
Jason in Enid said:
I was assuming the discussion was changing the FE reject disc line, not the tone profile bin.

IDXMonster said:
Yeah AJ,not sure...with me,Im in Combined with NO disc...FE set at 20 because nothing ever comes of setting it higher. Heck,nothing comes of it even running 20,all my silver coins have been 11-12-13/45,46,47 with a FEW exceptions that only varied by a couple of numbers. Certainly no numbers in the 20's for Ferrous...
Maybe it's due to running Auto and High Trash?? Beats me...if I see that Fe number go higher than 15 I'm already in trouble it seems.

Yes, the vast majority of silver does fall along the FE-11 to FE-13 area (I disagree about it being in the CO 45-47 zone though). There is a strange effect, which also applies to other FBS machines, where co-located iron and conductive can give a visual conductive hit, but not the audio. Changing the disc line to a higher FE number lets those silent hits come through for some reason. I have ZERO idea why this happens, but I have seen it since the days of swinging the E-Trac.

Changing the disc line to a higher FE number lets those silent hits come through for some reason.

Jason those signals that come threw are not silent they are low toning not silent say your in high trash combine you may get a trace and #s at say 25.45 if your fe line is set at 20 it will low tone if your fe line is set at 26 you will get a high tone because it is in the upper bin now if you were at 20 for your fe line it would be in the iron bin so it's going to low tone .

Now this can be confirmed by placing a nail dime nail like -o- go over this target with your fe line set at 20 and disc only from 32 to 35 you will get a low tone only one low tone because your nails are disc out look at the screen your #s will be 27.45 to 29.45 and trace will build there the reason your getting a low tone is because your fe line is set above these #s so your iron tone will be the tone the machine picks . Now if your fe line was set at 30 you would get a high tone because now it's in the upper bin and not in the iron bin . IDX try this and ask yourself what have I been missing .

This target -o- is not masked because you are getting audio and target trace the only thing the iron is doing is changing your ferrous #s your conduct #s are staying steady . There are million different combos of iron and coin mixed together in the ground that will give you 1 tone if the iron is disc out but depending where your fe line is set you will get a high tone or a low tone .

Now a target that is masked say a coin with a nail laying across the target east west is where you will not get audio low tone or high tone on the coin . But you will get the iron on each end of the target so it will be low low the coin being silent . But depending on how much and how big the iron is you may get a trace or not .

Let's look and see how target trace works and audio work audio and trace are separate but work together when a target is acquired there by trace will show you the audio in a painted spot on your screen and audio will give you the tone that's painted on the screen . Now lets disc out the whole screen you will see if you go over a dime it well paint a spot at say 12.45 no audio but trace is working without the audio .

Now I didn't design the machine and don't know how it works electrically can only go by what it dose in certain situations .Take a no audio hit where the nail has killed the audio from a coin I figure the audio from the nail is stronger than the audio from the dime since you can only have one tone you get the iron tone maybe the tone for the dime is there also but you can't hear it because of the iron masking the dime underneath . Same thing that can be said for trace where the trace from the nail is stronger than the trace for the dime there by masking the trace of the dime .Then in certain situations you will get audio and no trace or you will get trace and no audio .

If we take a dime and lay a nail east west over it on the surface we well get a trace at 12.25 to 12.37 with no audio the machine is seeing this as one target can't separate this so the conduct #s have changed from 45 to 25 to 37 because of the iron .Now when we bury this at 4 inches the trace at 25 to 37 gets weaker and the trace from the nail at 12.36 to12.47 gets stronger there by making the trace at 25 to 37 harder to see another words the trace from the nail is stronger than the trace from the dime if you watch close you can see the trace come and go at the 12.25 to 12.37 area and never build but it's there . So my opinion since the #s from the nail 12.36 to 12.47 and the dimes real # of 45 are so close it is covering the trace from the dime with the trace from the nail just as the audio from the nail is covering the audio from the dime.

Now lets take a lower conductor say a nickel with a nail laying east west on it the #s will be 14.09 with a great trace down to 5 inches and no audio if nails are dics out or low low with nails not disc out. The nail has changed the conduct #s from 12.13 to 14.09 and the nail #s are in the iron bin in the bottom . If we go deeper say 6 inches the nail comes up to the 12 line and the nickel # s and trace go by by only a flash of the # 14.09 well show and not build so now the nails trace has taken over the nickels trace .

So my conclusion is trace will be harder to see in the 12.36 to12.47 area because that's where the false from the nail happens which cover the trace from the high conductor coin .This has prove itself over and over if you get a no audio and a trace that builds at 12.01 to 12.35 it is a non ferrous item with iron easy to see compared to a high conductor mixed with a trace from a nail that's falsing in the 12.36 to 12.47 area .

When we get a target that is masked from target trace such as a dime under a large nail the trace is lost just as audio is lost if it's totally masked .

I would like your views on this I can only go by what I see because there is no imfo on this anywhere hence learn your detector. sube
 
IDXMonster said:
Bryan V said:
I posted about the Combined mode FE Adio line about 5 months ago when I discovered running it in the wrong location can result in missed coins.
Here is a link to that thread. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?86,2325027,2325027#msg-2325027

Here is another story on how co located targets can mess with FE CO numbers.
Yesterday afternoon I was running the Etrac and came upon a nice little sqeak so I stopped to investigate.
The signal was a mess and I was finally able to isolate what I thought might be two objects.
One was clearly iron and the other was reading FE 26-29 CO 48-49 consitantly.
The audio was great once I isolated the target so I dug it out of curiosity.
To my surprise, out popped a Murcury dime! Neither the FE or CO numbers made sense for a silver dime.
This reinforced to me what I already knew. Trust the Audio. Not the numbers.

Bryan


Yep I understand a skewed anything can read way lower. I'm just hunting in a different way.


I remember this post Bryan...

So if I am understanding... opening up the discrimination by pushing the FE line down on the screen (30 or 35 for example), will allow some of those "minelab masked" high conductors to come through with a high tone... but setting the fe tone bin up above the discrimination line (20 or 25 for example) won't impact the "minelab masked" effect... but will allow me to "manually" discriminate those low tones at my discretion. ?? Man I love this machine.
 
This is where FE/Coin and I part ways,no matter the ramifications. Let me give an example from a school lot last weekend. There's an area where I found out where the homecoming bonfires used to be. What do they burn on those huge piles? Pallets! A lot of them! I thought to myself...the only way I'm getting anything out of this mess is FE/Coin with an open screen and the FE line set to 28. Same settings I will run if I run FE/Coin. I'm poking along and a get a chirp....chirp chirp....not very good and VERY sketchy,TT all over the place and sure seemed like a crap nail mimicking a coin-ish signal....numbers all over,some good CO high 30's...
I switch to High Trash,40 CO and above open,20 FE and below open....perfectly clear 11-46/47 one way,90 degrees was mostly good,still stable CO numbers. I couldn't pinpoint with the machine,so I wiggled back across it to ISO it and dug the plug. A rusty bent newer nail,half a ring off a ring pull(no tab on it) and a clad quarter.
This is my problem with FE/Coin. I've run this machine for about a year now. I read all over about FE/Coin separation and the phenomenal abilities of it. Ive never seen it in person. I'm not saying it doesn't exist,but I've never seen it. Why? As for my silver coins hitting 46/47....why? It does it with all 3 coils. I can go ANYWHERE,and several forum members from the "other" forum have seen me do it,and find silver coins with what seems to be absolute impunity running very tight and high disc and High Trash. To have 21 silver coins,including a Walker and 5 Barbers at the end of March in southern WI is ludicrous! There's NO WAY I'd have these if I was farting around investigating every tiny false chirp that FE/Coin gives me. My own personal success comes from covering ground thoroughly with the big coil at reasonable sensitivity levels,only listening for the hits I want to hear. It doesn't matter if there's garbage or nails around,High Trash finds the coins regardless...for ME. There's always that caveat..."for ME",and we all have to do what works for our own situation.
Success in coin hunting to me is about finding coins,no matter how it's done. There's many newer guys out there that want to find coins,and getting bogged down in a separation mode that in all reality throws a lot of false information isn't the way to start for anyone. The long timers that have all day to analyze everything that comes across the screen...that's a game they play. For ME to get satisfaction out of my investment in the way of finding silver coins,I just let it do what it was designed to do. And it do.
 
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