The Racer was tested extensively by an expert. They have stated the Racer in the unmasking/separation departments doesn't seem to yield performance that violates any laws of physics. The small coil it seems separates better than most. It is deep for its size. It while attached to the detector doesn't seem to saturate as much as some other coils of similar size when attached to other good/great separating detectors. There are test shown in videos, granted the nail is not on top, instead close and in different positions, where the Racer does better again than other supposed good/great separators with similar sized coils. And this same performance it seems is also being depicted with the stock coil attached. I think one can now surmise it's both the Detector and coils providing this great separation performance. I'm sure there could/will be test scenarios constructed that the Racer cannot pass. And I'm sure the same applies to other detectors. Does using the Racer with small coil attached up your odds for nonferrous discovery in heavy iron/nails/iron bits/modern trash??? I think so, without a doubt. We will never be able to simulate all possible unmasking/separation scenarios we may face while in the field detecting!!!! I personally think with all expertise and interest in detecting, the detecting community owes it to itself to come up with some standardized test using a standardized fixture to to indeed check and validate a detector's abilities to separate/unmask nonferrous targets within nonferrous material, as well as separate/unmask nonferrrous within/amongst nails/iron. Then every time a new detector comes to the public we would all be familiar with the test and could readily relate to them in conversation; especially on detecting forums. And yes depending on detector performance advancements made the test devised, may have to be changed. And this factor I feel needs to be considered when constructing/designing the test I think we so desperately need.
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Can someone(s) here please do the following air test with their Racer:
- Thread starter Tom_in_CA
- Start date
Keith Southern
Active member
Ok I was wondering what was up !LOL..
I thought maybe yall had done a test and was wondering if it was the norm or some sort of anomaly was happening...
Heres how I feel on the Racer... and hopefully your buddy got the OOR (Out Of Round) 5" to go with the unit.. that will be the attention getter your after..
that small coil will report things in iron that most to non wont.. just plain fact not hype or stretching of the truth...Not to say that other are capable but they dont have the OOR 5' to deal with the masking...I feel a DEUS could see what the Racer sees IF it had the same coil.. But it does not..
The Racer is looking at target's in a T2 style but using a blending audio to report....so instead of black or white report separately on say a co-located target the Racer and or CoRe can report both targets in a more gray report....a blending of balck and white into one if you will..you will have the low and high tone in unison for a full audio picture...
This is also where not having the exactness of tone break may seem like its a dead duck BUT the blending and less filtering of disc'd itmes offers the machine unmasking ability still on a level equal to or better than a machine that can break tone user defined but still relys on 1 tone or the other but not at once...they have kept the setup simple ..not intricate ...but made the unit run in iron like its finely tuned...The machienis doign the work for you all you have to do is listen...
The caliope type report the Racer is offering is like a T2/AT-PRO blend..more in terms of a XP GMP with a meter and simplified setup....
and to be honest with you those testing procedures are nice to do and I do a ton as you know even videoing ..but and heres the big BUT dont discount the machine till you take it into iron infestation and use the small coil.....purposely take it to a spot your know is dired up...then report back,,, it may take a couple of sites to get into the SWING so to speak but once the finds surface the head scratching will start...
Not to say it some new alien tech... Far from it.. but all the same the company has looked at what is working and morphed it into a sort of franken hybrid unit and that combo helps to get more...
the I.D. the ergonomics the ease of set up the clean apearance is all nice but what it does wiht the OOR 5" in iron will grab your attention first and foremost... the small coil is as deep I might add as the F75/T2 5" in BP mode...STELLAR..!!
yes the I.D is also very accurate you will find for cherry picking when the time arises is say a modern trash environ as a PLUS!
Keith
I thought maybe yall had done a test and was wondering if it was the norm or some sort of anomaly was happening...
Heres how I feel on the Racer... and hopefully your buddy got the OOR (Out Of Round) 5" to go with the unit.. that will be the attention getter your after..
that small coil will report things in iron that most to non wont.. just plain fact not hype or stretching of the truth...Not to say that other are capable but they dont have the OOR 5' to deal with the masking...I feel a DEUS could see what the Racer sees IF it had the same coil.. But it does not..
The Racer is looking at target's in a T2 style but using a blending audio to report....so instead of black or white report separately on say a co-located target the Racer and or CoRe can report both targets in a more gray report....a blending of balck and white into one if you will..you will have the low and high tone in unison for a full audio picture...
This is also where not having the exactness of tone break may seem like its a dead duck BUT the blending and less filtering of disc'd itmes offers the machine unmasking ability still on a level equal to or better than a machine that can break tone user defined but still relys on 1 tone or the other but not at once...they have kept the setup simple ..not intricate ...but made the unit run in iron like its finely tuned...The machienis doign the work for you all you have to do is listen...
The caliope type report the Racer is offering is like a T2/AT-PRO blend..more in terms of a XP GMP with a meter and simplified setup....
and to be honest with you those testing procedures are nice to do and I do a ton as you know even videoing ..but and heres the big BUT dont discount the machine till you take it into iron infestation and use the small coil.....purposely take it to a spot your know is dired up...then report back,,, it may take a couple of sites to get into the SWING so to speak but once the finds surface the head scratching will start...
Not to say it some new alien tech... Far from it.. but all the same the company has looked at what is working and morphed it into a sort of franken hybrid unit and that combo helps to get more...
the I.D. the ergonomics the ease of set up the clean apearance is all nice but what it does wiht the OOR 5" in iron will grab your attention first and foremost... the small coil is as deep I might add as the F75/T2 5" in BP mode...STELLAR..!!
yes the I.D is also very accurate you will find for cherry picking when the time arises is say a modern trash environ as a PLUS!
Keith
I read your forum post yesterday and could have answered it based on my experiences and what I believed to be the correct answers, but instead I used it as a good excuse to grab a couple of rusty nails and my ‘Test Tube’ and head out detecting for the day.
I got back in town and stopped to order a pizza-to-go for dinner, and while waiting I started dealing with crashing blood sugars and had to deal with that and getting my diabetic frustrations under control. By the time I did and got home, I just enjoyed some excellent pizza and then got some rest. I wasn’t feeling up to posting the reply that I am doing now, so pardon my tardiness. Then today I started it, but have been handling phone calls that have interrupted my slow typing process.
I own and use two Makro Racers, now the main part of my Primary Use Detector Battery that stays on my back seat. I have the small 4.[size=small]7[/size]X5.[size=small]2[/size] DD coil mounted on one of them and the solid 5½X10 DD mounted on the other. I also have the 2 two standard 7X11 DD coils, an additional small coil and the larger 13.[size=small]3[/size]X15.[size=small]5[/size] DD coil that all travel with me in an accessory tote in the trunk.
To make sure I compared all the targets as you requested, I did it with the small, medium and standard DD coils. I didn’t do it with the largest coil. In my 'Test Tube' I have a number of good targets and an ample number of unwanted trash targets making up the '50' hidden-from-view samples.
One is a good old Beaver Tail type Ring Pull tab that is complete and with the 'tail' pointing straight out. Another is an older type Ring Pull tab with the Beaver Tail bent so that it curls around inside the 'ring' portion. I had several nails in my seminar demonstration samples and I used two of them. They are about index finger length, but have different thicknesses.
There are several comments I have used for decades now when discussing detectors and helping others in their search for the right one for them, or learning what their might have. One that has been true for decades, is spot on correct today, and will continue to be forever, is this:
“There is no such thing as a perfect metal detector.”
It is up to each of us to learn what is out there, learn the site environments and challenges we will deal with for our choice of hunting, and then learn what a number of metal detectors can and can't do, making it easier for us to select one or two that we feel best fit our needs and site environments. If your buddy gets a Makro Racer Pro Package, providing him with the small coil as well as the standard 7X11, then all he needs to do is:
Be patient. Learn its features and the best operating techniques. Master it.
I guarantee you that your buddy will then have in his hand one of the latest detectors, and will then know, also, that he has one of the greatest detectors for a wide-range of detecting applications.
Naturally it will depend upon the types of sites he prefers to hunt, but for me, where I usually try to hunt iron plagued urban renovation or get away to ghost towns or other iron nail infested sites, the Racer is about the best all-around performing detector I have ever used.
If the target was rejected … Discriminated … then the Threshold audio would get weaker, even to the point of completely 'nulling' or going silent. Some makes and models on the market today, such as the White's MXT Pro, can operate with a Threshold audio in the motion-based Discriminate mode.
With such a model you can sometimes hear a nulling when you encounter a Discriminated target, but not always because many of the Threshold audio Discriminate mode detectors have a fast auto-tune that counters the nulling audio. The Discrimination circuitry handles rejecting an unwanted target but you don’t always hear it cause a ‘null’ effect.
Most detectors models today, and for quite a few years, operate in the Discriminate mode as "silent search" models. By design, you do not hear a Threshold audio sound during the search. Therefore, you cannot hear a 'null' response because there is no functional audio to null from.
Instead, you only hear any target that produces an audible response [size=small](a fixed audio 'beep', a different static tone 'beep' based upon the target’s conductivity, a VCO enhanced 'beep' or a blend of these)[/size] based upon the target conductivity, size, shape and influence on the EMF of a target that responds higher than the Discriminate rejection point.
To Continue: So to address your 'a' request, I adjusted both of my Racers to an ID Filter [size=small](Discrimination)[/size] setting of '23' which just rejects my two sample Iron Nails as well as the four iron nails on my Nail Board Performance Test [size=small](comments on that to follow as it might apply to Tom’s overall goal)[/size].
I did this with both the 2-Tone mode and 3-Tone mode to just barely reject the Iron Nails.
If you were to ask if the Iron Nail rejects or impairs a response from the small Dime coin, that answer would be Yes, some of the time, and No, not all of the time. The important point to know the correct description of the answer would be:
If the Nail and Dime are swept across the center-axis of the search coil as if encountered length-wise, then No, you will not get a good audio response on the Dime due to the influence of the ferrous target on the EMF.
If the Nail and Dime are swept across the center-axis of the search coil as if encountered cross-wise [size=small](with the head and point of the nail pointed to the front-and-rear)[/size], then Yes, you will get a good audio response on the Dime.
The problem with this test scenario is that we are dealing with Iron, a ferrous metal target, and a Dime, a smaller-size and non-ferrous metal target. Even if the two targets were of similar size and shape, but of the two different metals, the results would not be the same due to the different effect of ferrous/Iron on the EFM than what a non-ferrous metal makes.
Ferrous targets have a greater effect, and different effect, than a non-ferrous target of similar or smaller size on the EMF. That is what makes hunting in an iron infested site so difficult. The greater influence of iron, combined with it being rejected and the challenges of the circuitry to process the greater iron influenced field of the rejected target for today’s modern, motion-based Discriminators, has to be learned and appreciated.
Added Note about Hunting in a Dense Iron Nail Environment: Tom, your "air test" was done that way as well as with targets laying on the ground. I have done these tests so many times by myself to evaluate detectors, and also with others who helped me cross-check different hunting scenarios.
There have been many different test scenarios I have tried, and naturally, hunting ghost towns since May of ’69, I have encountered an endless array of Iron Nail conditions, many quite different, but I have noted one thing in particular.
Most of the time, when I have found Trade Tokens, Coins and other smaller-size 'keepers' in iron nail infested sites, the good targets were close to nails. Often on the same plane, and close to the Iron Nails. Yes, sometimes over or partially over the Nails, and sometimes under or partially under the nails, but most were just close to Nails and not directly centered under the Nails.
On Memorial Day Weekend, the end of May of ’94, I encountered four Iron Nails on top of the old school hill where there wasn’t a structure remaining, but a very dense amount of scattered Nails. In the center of the four Nails was an Indian Head cent. A lower-reading coin than a Dime thus a little more of a challenge.
I asked several others hunting nearby to come and try their detectors and coil on the Indian Head cent and four Iron Nails, all laying in plain sight. No one was able to get a single response to the IH cent from four indicated directions, with a side-to-side sweep, making 8 possible target responses.
The only detectors able to get a satisfactory number of responses that day were all of the Tesoro models present, most using a 7” coil, a White’s Coinmaster Classic II, and a Gold Mountain Technologies GMT-1650. All of those detectors hit in the Indian head from all four marked directions.
I made a copy of the exact position of the nails and coin and picked them all up. From that I made an exact copy to produce my first Nail Board Performance Test and, to this day, almost 21 years later, it remains the best all-purpose test scenario to evaluate detectors and coils to hunt in a dense Iron nail environment.
Detectors from across the USA and many competitive detectors from countries all around the world have been put to the test on this scenario.
For all practical purposes, for hunting tough sites, I have found it to be a more reasonable way to evaluate detectors and coil, and their ability to reject Iron nails and respond to [size=small](or not respond to)[/size] a centered coin.
Send me an e-mail with your mailing address and I’ll get a NBPT kit to you.
Monte
I got back in town and stopped to order a pizza-to-go for dinner, and while waiting I started dealing with crashing blood sugars and had to deal with that and getting my diabetic frustrations under control. By the time I did and got home, I just enjoyed some excellent pizza and then got some rest. I wasn’t feeling up to posting the reply that I am doing now, so pardon my tardiness. Then today I started it, but have been handling phone calls that have interrupted my slow typing process.
I own and use two Makro Racers, now the main part of my Primary Use Detector Battery that stays on my back seat. I have the small 4.[size=small]7[/size]X5.[size=small]2[/size] DD coil mounted on one of them and the solid 5½X10 DD mounted on the other. I also have the 2 two standard 7X11 DD coils, an additional small coil and the larger 13.[size=small]3[/size]X15.[size=small]5[/size] DD coil that all travel with me in an accessory tote in the trunk.
To make sure I compared all the targets as you requested, I did it with the small, medium and standard DD coils. I didn’t do it with the largest coil. In my 'Test Tube' I have a number of good targets and an ample number of unwanted trash targets making up the '50' hidden-from-view samples.
One is a good old Beaver Tail type Ring Pull tab that is complete and with the 'tail' pointing straight out. Another is an older type Ring Pull tab with the Beaver Tail bent so that it curls around inside the 'ring' portion. I had several nails in my seminar demonstration samples and I used two of them. They are about index finger length, but have different thicknesses.
Yes, you're kind of correct and that even applies to those Malaysian-made detectors for the Australian detector maker, Minelab, that also came with a lot of touts and praises … initially.Tom_in_CA said:A buddy of mine just shelled out to get this "latest greatest" Racer. I ribbed him for awhile, saying that it was all just "latest greatest" hype, that accompanies any new machine that comes on the market. But within a year, they're all just ho-hum normal machines. Not as capable of super-human feats that all the initial rumor-mill-buzz scpeculated about !
And when you look back at the history of the internet forums, for each time a new "latest greatest" was introduced, they were also accompanied by bullet-proof videos, testimonials, blah blah . But in time, they'd fall into a regular class of detectors, nothing super human afterall. Doh!
There are several comments I have used for decades now when discussing detectors and helping others in their search for the right one for them, or learning what their might have. One that has been true for decades, is spot on correct today, and will continue to be forever, is this:
“There is no such thing as a perfect metal detector.”
It is up to each of us to learn what is out there, learn the site environments and challenges we will deal with for our choice of hunting, and then learn what a number of metal detectors can and can't do, making it easier for us to select one or two that we feel best fit our needs and site environments. If your buddy gets a Makro Racer Pro Package, providing him with the small coil as well as the standard 7X11, then all he needs to do is:
Be patient. Learn its features and the best operating techniques. Master it.
I guarantee you that your buddy will then have in his hand one of the latest detectors, and will then know, also, that he has one of the greatest detectors for a wide-range of detecting applications.
Naturally it will depend upon the types of sites he prefers to hunt, but for me, where I usually try to hunt iron plagued urban renovation or get away to ghost towns or other iron nail infested sites, the Racer is about the best all-around performing detector I have ever used.
Correct. Air Tests might not be the best to use, but I like them as we can get a general idea of what a detector and coil combination is capable of under almost ideal conditions.Tom_in_CA said:
Clarification for some readers regarding terminology: Tom asked to have the iron nail "null out." With the older, traditional TR-Disc. detectors, you hunted with a Threshold audio and any accepted target would produce an increase in audio from the Threshold [size=small](aka a 'beep' today)[/size].Tom_in_CA said:
If the target was rejected … Discriminated … then the Threshold audio would get weaker, even to the point of completely 'nulling' or going silent. Some makes and models on the market today, such as the White's MXT Pro, can operate with a Threshold audio in the motion-based Discriminate mode.
With such a model you can sometimes hear a nulling when you encounter a Discriminated target, but not always because many of the Threshold audio Discriminate mode detectors have a fast auto-tune that counters the nulling audio. The Discrimination circuitry handles rejecting an unwanted target but you don’t always hear it cause a ‘null’ effect.
Most detectors models today, and for quite a few years, operate in the Discriminate mode as "silent search" models. By design, you do not hear a Threshold audio sound during the search. Therefore, you cannot hear a 'null' response because there is no functional audio to null from.
Instead, you only hear any target that produces an audible response [size=small](a fixed audio 'beep', a different static tone 'beep' based upon the target’s conductivity, a VCO enhanced 'beep' or a blend of these)[/size] based upon the target conductivity, size, shape and influence on the EMF of a target that responds higher than the Discriminate rejection point.
To Continue: So to address your 'a' request, I adjusted both of my Racers to an ID Filter [size=small](Discrimination)[/size] setting of '23' which just rejects my two sample Iron Nails as well as the four iron nails on my Nail Board Performance Test [size=small](comments on that to follow as it might apply to Tom’s overall goal)[/size].
I did this with both the 2-Tone mode and 3-Tone mode to just barely reject the Iron Nails.
No, because as I just described, there is no functional audio Threshold to hear a 'null' from.Tom_in_CA said:
If you were to ask if the Iron Nail rejects or impairs a response from the small Dime coin, that answer would be Yes, some of the time, and No, not all of the time. The important point to know the correct description of the answer would be:
If the Nail and Dime are swept across the center-axis of the search coil as if encountered length-wise, then No, you will not get a good audio response on the Dime due to the influence of the ferrous target on the EMF.
If the Nail and Dime are swept across the center-axis of the search coil as if encountered cross-wise [size=small](with the head and point of the nail pointed to the front-and-rear)[/size], then Yes, you will get a good audio response on the Dime.
The “combination” isn’t really upping a response for the Dime, when it is able. The Dime is able to respond because with a crossing sweep instead of a length-wise sweep, the Iron Nail is not degrading the EMF as much and the Dime is able to be responsive.Tom_in_CA said:
The problem with this test scenario is that we are dealing with Iron, a ferrous metal target, and a Dime, a smaller-size and non-ferrous metal target. Even if the two targets were of similar size and shape, but of the two different metals, the results would not be the same due to the different effect of ferrous/Iron on the EFM than what a non-ferrous metal makes.
Ferrous targets have a greater effect, and different effect, than a non-ferrous target of similar or smaller size on the EMF. That is what makes hunting in an iron infested site so difficult. The greater influence of iron, combined with it being rejected and the challenges of the circuitry to process the greater iron influenced field of the rejected target for today’s modern, motion-based Discriminators, has to be learned and appreciated.
No, the Dime is likely to NOT produce a positive audio response, regardless of the direction of the Nail and Dime presentation to any of the search coils simply due to the greater negative effects of the rejected Iron on the EMF, since there is now more Iron.Tom_in_CA said:
Yes, the difference isNo, the Dime is likely to NOT produce a positive audio response, regardless of the direction of the Nail and Dime presentation to any of the search coils simply due to the greater negative effects of the rejected Iron on the EMF, since it is closer to the coil, combined with the now-deeper [size=small](and farther away)[/size] smaller-size Dime.Tom_in_CA said:
As stated, I used an ID Filter setting of '23' on both 2 and 3-Tone operating modes to barely reject the Iron Nails so nothing was heard from them.Tom_in_CA said:
Correct, and there are many times, if the Iron Nail level isn’t too dense or severe, I will hunt at the default ID Filter setting of ‘10’ because that helps let me hear ALL targets, both ferrous and non-ferrous, and then I can test my own skills and classify Iron targets and work the coil around them to try and find a partially-masked keeper.Tom_in_CA said:
Okay, I did that for both the full Ring-Pull tab with attached Beaver Tail sticking straight out, and also for an older Ring-Pull Tab with the beaver Tail bent to curl around inside the Ring portion. ID Filter was adjusted so they were just barely rejected and I couldn’t hear a response from them.Tom_in_CA said:
Nothing really “bumped-up”, just a situation where the Ring-Pull tab is rejected but the Racer DOES respond to the Dime, even with an incorrect Target ID number reference.Tom_in_CA said:
Yes, I still got a responsed, Ring-Pull Tabs rejected, Dime just touching and under the tab and away from the search coil.Tom_in_CA said:
Did it with the 2 Tabs and then added the Dime. Still got a response that, while not a proper audio or visual response, was a 'dig me' target hit.Tom_in_CA said:
I did it with the small coil, the 5X10 solid coil and the standard 7X11 coil, using two Racer's to double-check the results.Tom_in_CA said:
Added Note about Hunting in a Dense Iron Nail Environment: Tom, your "air test" was done that way as well as with targets laying on the ground. I have done these tests so many times by myself to evaluate detectors, and also with others who helped me cross-check different hunting scenarios.
There have been many different test scenarios I have tried, and naturally, hunting ghost towns since May of ’69, I have encountered an endless array of Iron Nail conditions, many quite different, but I have noted one thing in particular.
Most of the time, when I have found Trade Tokens, Coins and other smaller-size 'keepers' in iron nail infested sites, the good targets were close to nails. Often on the same plane, and close to the Iron Nails. Yes, sometimes over or partially over the Nails, and sometimes under or partially under the nails, but most were just close to Nails and not directly centered under the Nails.
On Memorial Day Weekend, the end of May of ’94, I encountered four Iron Nails on top of the old school hill where there wasn’t a structure remaining, but a very dense amount of scattered Nails. In the center of the four Nails was an Indian Head cent. A lower-reading coin than a Dime thus a little more of a challenge.
I asked several others hunting nearby to come and try their detectors and coil on the Indian Head cent and four Iron Nails, all laying in plain sight. No one was able to get a single response to the IH cent from four indicated directions, with a side-to-side sweep, making 8 possible target responses.
The only detectors able to get a satisfactory number of responses that day were all of the Tesoro models present, most using a 7” coil, a White’s Coinmaster Classic II, and a Gold Mountain Technologies GMT-1650. All of those detectors hit in the Indian head from all four marked directions.
I made a copy of the exact position of the nails and coin and picked them all up. From that I made an exact copy to produce my first Nail Board Performance Test and, to this day, almost 21 years later, it remains the best all-purpose test scenario to evaluate detectors and coils to hunt in a dense Iron nail environment.
Detectors from across the USA and many competitive detectors from countries all around the world have been put to the test on this scenario.
For all practical purposes, for hunting tough sites, I have found it to be a more reasonable way to evaluate detectors and coil, and their ability to reject Iron nails and respond to [size=small](or not respond to)[/size] a centered coin.
Send me an e-mail with your mailing address and I’ll get a NBPT kit to you.
Monte
The Makro Racer was an interesting looking detector that teased us with Santa in the artwork a few months ago.
The Nokta FORS CoRe set the stage with similar search modes, similar functions, and an exact same size small 'OOR' coil, and stellar performance.
The Makro Racer then taunted us with it's unique styling, very functional and informative display, and better still, exceptional performance. It was even better complimented with a wonderful and unique Overload or Saturated Audio response which I have found to be a very functional tool.
I like 'Simple' and the Racer is. Very quick to get into action with only a couple of set-up adjustments for any site.
I like 'Functional' and the Racer is, lacking a lot of excess adjustment features and tweaks and menus that are not necessary.
And, I like 'Performance,' and the Racer provided all of that to me in such a fashion that it would easily and quickly replace my existing detector battery to join the FORS CoRe as one of my Primary-Use Detectors. I was not only pleased, but inspired to buy a second Racer so I would have ample models to be well equipped and have my regular carry detector battery at-its-best.
I hope Tom in CA has a detecting buddy who will learn the best performance of the Racer and use the smaller coil to work the mentioned site in a proper and methodical way. I would easily put it against the mentioned XT-705 or any other comparable detector. Well, the problem is, there is no other comparable detector.
Monte
The Nokta FORS CoRe set the stage with similar search modes, similar functions, and an exact same size small 'OOR' coil, and stellar performance.
The Makro Racer then taunted us with it's unique styling, very functional and informative display, and better still, exceptional performance. It was even better complimented with a wonderful and unique Overload or Saturated Audio response which I have found to be a very functional tool.
I like 'Simple' and the Racer is. Very quick to get into action with only a couple of set-up adjustments for any site.
I like 'Functional' and the Racer is, lacking a lot of excess adjustment features and tweaks and menus that are not necessary.
And, I like 'Performance,' and the Racer provided all of that to me in such a fashion that it would easily and quickly replace my existing detector battery to join the FORS CoRe as one of my Primary-Use Detectors. I was not only pleased, but inspired to buy a second Racer so I would have ample models to be well equipped and have my regular carry detector battery at-its-best.
I hope Tom in CA has a detecting buddy who will learn the best performance of the Racer and use the smaller coil to work the mentioned site in a proper and methodical way. I would easily put it against the mentioned XT-705 or any other comparable detector. Well, the problem is, there is no other comparable detector.
Monte
the fellows I hunted with who used the XT-705 didn't do as well, regardless of coil, in the densely littered site. They also told me they had been losing interest in it recently anyway going against an MXT Pro w/6½" concentric, and now saw another detector with even more appeal and I used both the standard and small coils.
I couldn't argue with them.
Monte
I couldn't argue with them.
Monte
doc holiday
New member
Tom do you need your house painted,dog walked,or garbarge taken out??
Tom_in_CA" wishes to thank you for your input into the discussion. And especially Monte, who took out so much time to make a detailed response ! Thankyou. But for some reason, Tom has been banned from this forum (??)
So followup question to Monte, re.: the nail test: How does he think the Racer would compare, in all those staged tests, to a) a Silver Sabre II ? and b) a Compass 77b ? And how about the tab test: How would the Racer compare to a Silver sabre II in that ? "
So followup question to Monte, re.: the nail test: How does he think the Racer would compare, in all those staged tests, to a) a Silver Sabre II ? and b) a Compass 77b ? And how about the tab test: How would the Racer compare to a Silver sabre II in that ? "
Keith Southern
Active member
Im not Monte and I know Monte will answer but if I may add what I can to the the question asked..
the Silver sabre 2 is/was a great site working unit...
YET.. the silver sabre 2 did not have the ability to report a target below a nail.. the disc stopped right at nail 120 circuit remember..
the Racer/Core also is stopping at nail actually a little higher FOIL is the break point for the tone from iron grun to high tone report...40 I.D.
but with that in mind the Raaer also has a unique operating platform in that it has a really tight and defined DD coil,,,,it has the ability to let the tones roll/blend together thus allowing the audio gate report to stay open in a caliope effect instead of a circuit that is not reporting at all audibly or nulling....And also the disc filter of the Racer/CoRe is the type of setup that allows for the disc'd out target to BLEED through.. and when you have a low tone high tone with set tone break that does not neccesarily mean that the low tone will always be 100% iron becuse of the I.D... other factors will come into play that allows the less FILTERING of the disc'd target to have more of a chance to BLEED to the high side in especially small nails....
Compass 77 B is very good at SMALL nail see through I have found.. yet the site has to be specific also for the MAGIC to happen....and by this I mean shallow iron to even exposed and on the surface with no to little ground cover casuing airgap and in more drier arid less corosion type climate areas seems to work the best...in moist loamy soil and especially ground cover sites with burried nails I see it as a non producer behind a top end VLF desinged for nail site work..
Challenging the Racer/Core to the pulltab challenge in my opinion and especially if both machines have say 5 inch coils the Racer/CoRe will offer more tonal and also with the help of the I.D. better visual if you learn to use it in unison and rely on both pieces of info to signal dig or non dig..
Now with all that said I admire the Tesoro Circuit immensely.. and I feel Tesoro can still bring alot to the table and aslo if they move forward with some more modern Tonal options....yet at the same time if you enjoy the SS 2 and make finds with it and are happy that's the msot important aspect of the hobby...
but if your more Detector OCD like me then theres always that challenge to get one more piece out of a site and the Racer /CoRe especially with the OOR 5" offers some great advantages and the target in trash dissecting is one of them..
Hope I have not stepped on anyones toes as the question was not aimed for me..
Keith
the Silver sabre 2 is/was a great site working unit...
YET.. the silver sabre 2 did not have the ability to report a target below a nail.. the disc stopped right at nail 120 circuit remember..
the Racer/Core also is stopping at nail actually a little higher FOIL is the break point for the tone from iron grun to high tone report...40 I.D.
but with that in mind the Raaer also has a unique operating platform in that it has a really tight and defined DD coil,,,,it has the ability to let the tones roll/blend together thus allowing the audio gate report to stay open in a caliope effect instead of a circuit that is not reporting at all audibly or nulling....And also the disc filter of the Racer/CoRe is the type of setup that allows for the disc'd out target to BLEED through.. and when you have a low tone high tone with set tone break that does not neccesarily mean that the low tone will always be 100% iron becuse of the I.D... other factors will come into play that allows the less FILTERING of the disc'd target to have more of a chance to BLEED to the high side in especially small nails....
Compass 77 B is very good at SMALL nail see through I have found.. yet the site has to be specific also for the MAGIC to happen....and by this I mean shallow iron to even exposed and on the surface with no to little ground cover casuing airgap and in more drier arid less corosion type climate areas seems to work the best...in moist loamy soil and especially ground cover sites with burried nails I see it as a non producer behind a top end VLF desinged for nail site work..
Challenging the Racer/Core to the pulltab challenge in my opinion and especially if both machines have say 5 inch coils the Racer/CoRe will offer more tonal and also with the help of the I.D. better visual if you learn to use it in unison and rely on both pieces of info to signal dig or non dig..
Now with all that said I admire the Tesoro Circuit immensely.. and I feel Tesoro can still bring alot to the table and aslo if they move forward with some more modern Tonal options....yet at the same time if you enjoy the SS 2 and make finds with it and are happy that's the msot important aspect of the hobby...
but if your more Detector OCD like me then theres always that challenge to get one more piece out of a site and the Racer /CoRe especially with the OOR 5" offers some great advantages and the target in trash dissecting is one of them..
Hope I have not stepped on anyones toes as the question was not aimed for me..
Keith
I don't know why because looking deeper into the questions, I could see some valid reasons for them. It was especially more inclined to compare the "latest and greatest" motion-based Discriminator against a tough Iron Nail challenge that is really not matchable to a very good traditional TR unit [size=small](especially non-discriminating)[/size] or maybe to some of the better analog-based, 2-filter type motion Discriminators, especially like a good Tesoro or White's Classic model.Cal_Cobra said:
All good questions to try and understand the great abilities we recognize with the Makro Racer.
The Tesoro Silver Sabre II [size=small](if properly Ground Balanced)[/size] and Bandido or Bandido II [size=small](also GB'ed with their manual control)[/size] were/are three of my all-time favorite Tesoro Discriminators for hunting dense iron nail plagued sites. The Bandido II µMAX [size=small](microMAX)[/size] and Silver Sabre µMAX [size=small](microMAX)[/size] gave us a little better depth and louder target response than those former models ... BUT ... they had some difficulty dealing with iron rejection and were noisier or just didn't work as well in a heavily nail-littered site.Cal_Cobra said:
Unfortunately, I do not have a Silver Sabre II or one of the first two Bandido models on-hand to evaluate. I did, however, use my 6" Concentric coil [size=small](Tesoro calls it the 5.75, but it measures spot-on 6" across)[/size] and a Bandido II µMAX and an 'as new' Outlaw [size=small](based on the B-II µMAX)[/size] I am trying to sell and used the same two rusty Nails and clad dime. The results were backwards and, honestly a bit troubling. I had their Discrimination control, which Tesoro describes as "ED-120", meaning it can be adjusted, at the minimum setting, to a point somewhere just more than nail rejection. It doesn't adjust any lower.
Let me describe the specific Iron Nails used, now that I have a rule handy. The skinny Nail measures exactly 3" long, but is only about ⅛" in diameter. The larger Nail measures about 4⅜" long and practically ¼" in diameter. Neither of them are bent. Here is the strange results I got doing the same 'air test' at the same time and same conditions, holding the clad dime in the center of the Nail behind and against it [size=small](farther from the search coil)[/size].
Smaller Nail Results: With the 6" Concentric coil, I got an audio 'beep' if I crossed the Nail/Dime cross-wise [size=small](with the Nail pointed front-and-rear)[/size] but absolutely NO response when it was swept length-wise. The audio hit I got was a good, clean-sounding response.
Larger Nail Results: With the same 6" Concentric coil, I got a broken, noisy audio 'beep' if I crossed the Nail/Dime LENGTH-WISE , but it was a more broken up response with sort of an "after-bleep" after passing the end of the Nail, and more of a "take a guess" response to an iffy hit on the Dime. Then, when I swept the Nail-on-Dime cross-wise [size=small](with the Nail pointed front-and-rear)[/size] there was absolutely NO response! Contrary to what one would anticipate. I checked this odd result about six times, too!
So, very clearly, the Racer with small coil, 5½X10 coil and standard 7X11 coil produced better ... and consistent ... results.
Here we can not really compare results fairly. If it is just to ask if the motion-based Discriminating Racer can deal with one, two or a few Iron Nails like a conventional, non-Discriminating TR of known, proven talents, the answer is No. That might be why I do have my Compass Coin Hustler and 99B hanging around.Cal_Cobra said:
Other than how it deals with being under or adjacent to a Nail, that's one comparison, but in the Racer's favor, it has GB so that eliminates the typical TR falsing you have with the 77B, and that makes it easier to hunt an area with uneven ground. It is also FAR superior to the 77B class TR 's when it comes to depth of detection. The Racer Vs 77B is more like comparing a very versatile and equipped 4X4 against the gas mileage and maneuverability in a parking lot against a smart car type vehicle. Interesting, but not practical.
It will match or better what the Tesoro will do in the pull tab comparison.Cal_Cobra said:
Monte
doc holiday
New member
Thanks Keith for another great infogram--your stuff is always good.
Old California
New member
Hello Brian,
I read and reread Tom's post above and his responses to those replying to his post, What may have got him banned was from his replies. Granted, You and I know how Tom comes across on the negative side at times and he really doesn't know it. That's about what I can tell, His wording to these replies came across kind of in a negative direction.
I'm sure the forum will see through this and reinstate Tom back onto the forum, Just a minor issue.
HH, Paul
I read and reread Tom's post above and his responses to those replying to his post, What may have got him banned was from his replies. Granted, You and I know how Tom comes across on the negative side at times and he really doesn't know it. That's about what I can tell, His wording to these replies came across kind of in a negative direction.
I'm sure the forum will see through this and reinstate Tom back onto the forum, Just a minor issue.
HH, Paul
.............he has embraced it with open minded thinking. It's hard to impress Monte as we have all learned from past posts of his.
Thanks Monte for all the informative posts you have been making. " If it impresses you", there has to be something to the workings of the "Racer".
Thanks Monte for all the informative posts you have been making. " If it impresses you", there has to be something to the workings of the "Racer".
El said:
El I did meet up with Tom. I hunted an old "hunted out" stage stop yesterday afternoon and we met up in the evening to compare some signals at another site. Unfortunately it was pitch black last night, but I managed to hear everything he did, except one pistol ball, but it was the diameter of a dime, so I think I just was not swinging over the same spot he was, as I know the Racer would've heard that target with ease. See my post for the small lead pistol balls I found, they're about 1/10th the size of the pistol ball Tom found
HH,
Brian
Old California
New member
That's right Brian, Tom is a great guy I'm sure the forum will reinstate him back onto the forum. Both you and I know he means no harm, I'm sure the forum will see this and reinstate him.
HH, Paul
HH, Paul
Thanks for the reply Brian. I also got a reply from Tom about the 2 hunts . He gave me the particulars in the only way Tom can. Had me LOL.
I'm getting withdrawals not being able to detect for awhile . I'm Texas visiting our granddaughter and new 7 day old great granddaughter
Thanks again.
El
I'm getting withdrawals not being able to detect for awhile . I'm Texas visiting our granddaughter and new 7 day old great granddaughter
Thanks again.
El