Find's Treasure Forums

Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!

You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.

Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.

Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.

Click here to register!



Need Support Help?

Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you

Changed email? Forgot to update your account with new email address? Need assistance with something else?, click here to go to Find's Support Form and fill out the form.

Building your own coils

Charles (Upstate NY)

Well-known member
@Odanscoils commented that he would like to know how to build a concentric coaxial/coplanar coil for his Minelab Explorer. I'm starting this thread to discuss.

If you take an Explorer DD coil apart you will find two windings of copper magnet wire. A thicker heavier gauge wire TX (transmit) winding, and a thinner smaller gauge wire RX (receive) winding. Both the rough shape of a "D", a D and a backwards D, with the windings overlapping down the center.

coil05.jpg


Explorers require balanced coils - So what does that mean? The TX transmit winding is blasting out a powerful transmit signal, this is what induces a signal into the target. Naturally we can't have the transmit signal being picked up by the RX receive winding that would drown out targets. The RX winding 'detects' the tiny induced signal back from the target. It turns out though if you overlap the TX and RX windings precisely, monitoring RX on an oscilloscope you can 'balance' the windings. Watching the RX winding on the scope as you adjust the overlap you can watch the TX signal that's riding on the RX winding shrink then flatline, the coil is then balanced. This is touchy, a little nudge one way or another can knock the coil out of balance e.g. you can see some TX signal on the RX winding. Just the epoxy setting up can pull the coil out of balance. I began testing new coils I purchased and found maybe 1 out of 4-5 coils was actually out of balance from the factory.

Concentric coils must also be balanced, there are different methods. This one uses a variation on the DD above, overlapping the TX and RX windings.

coil04.jpg


This approach introduces the Bucking Coil to balance e.g. reduce the TX signal riding on the RX winding to zero. Here you see a single TX winding, inner RX winding, and outer RX winding in the opposite direction of the inner RX e.g. bucking. It's the number of bucking coil winds that gets you to balance. This can be a partial wind or turn, it's that sensitive.

coil03.png


Here the opposite method is used, ignore the math. Here an outer TX1 winding, inner TX2 winding (the bucking coil to balance the coil) wired in the opposite or reverse direction as TX1, and the inner RX winding.

Block-diagram-of-the-sensing-head-in-transmitter-bucking-configuration.png


I'm going to stop here with some info. So far this looks pretty simple. Just some windings of copper magnet wire. No chips or electronics in the coil. But before you step into building your own coil know this, the devil is in the details. It's not nearly as simple as it seems. It's not impossible but not this simple. If you measure a sample of Minelab/After Market coils for the Explorer you will find they are all built to very tight tolerances. Resistance, Impedance, Inductance, Capacitance, and Q are all within a very narrow tolerance range that your coil must match. Some are in a tug-of-war with each other. Number of winds to hit the Inductance may over/under hit the resistance tolerance. Different gauge wires required for different sized windings e.g. coils. How tight or loose the windings are wound. The type and thickness of the insulation on the copper magnet wire. Minelab uses Litz wire for the TX winding that's a whole other discussion.

This ^^^ is before we even discuss assembling the coil. Some tricky things specific to the concentric coil, where the bucking coil wire exits. You literally will be winding that bucking coil and have to stop at say 9 o-clock where the coil is in perfect balance, but what if your exist for that wire in the coil shell is at 3 o-clock on the opposite side of the coil shell, see tricky. The entire coil assembly TX/RX/TX for example must be encased in a shielded cocoon tied back to the detector's ground. This brings into play how to do that. The shielding cannot come into contact with the outside world, it must be electrically insulated by the outer coil shell. Drain wires. You will use carbon black shielding paint, it's just conductive enough without being too conductive. The Eplorer can actually detect nickel based shielding paint for example. Coming back to balancing the coil, the epoxy during the cure can pull your coil out of balance during the curing process, so how to deal with that. Assembling has it's own set of challenges.

That said it was great fun building coils, even when the process became maddening.
 
Very interesting information!!
When state “balancing the coil” does that also mean “tuning it”?
I used to see posts about folks sending their detectors in to get retuned.
Also, I guess a coil could get out of balance if it is dropped or bumped against something while in use?
 
Very interesting information!!
When state “balancing the coil” does that also mean “tuning it”?
I used to see posts about folks sending their detectors in to get retuned.
Also, I guess a coil could get out of balance if it is dropped or bumped against something while in use?
A coil can get out of balance when bumped against something if only for a fraction of a second. If bumped hard enough to flex the coil a bit and disturb the balance between TX and RX it will produce a signal in the headphones. But as the coil is encased in epoxy it will flex back, return to its balanced shape.

But lets say you bash it with a big hammer and deform the coil permanently. Because it's a motion machine you may not notice it's now out of balance other than poor performance, hence why I tested new coils on a scope. Let's say you taped a dime directly to the coil. On a scope you would see that RX is now pre-loaded with a dime signal, but because it's a motion machine and the dime is not in motion relative to the coil the Explorer will settle down and return to threshold, even though it's negatively impacted now by the dime taped to the coil.

There's no re-tuning coils, they are permanently encased/frozen in position in epoxy. Getting a detector retuned sounds more like having the control box checked, and any weak capacitors replaced. There are quite a lot of can caps on the Explorer circuit board and can caps dry out and fail over time but I've never had one go bad. Explorers are damn rugged.
 
A coil can get out of balance when bumped against something if only for a fraction of a second. If bumped hard enough to flex the coil a bit and disturb the balance between TX and RX it will produce a signal in the headphones. But as the coil is encased in epoxy it will flex back, return to its balanced shape.

But lets say you bash it with a big hammer and deform the coil permanently. Because it's a motion machine you may not notice it's now out of balance other than poor performance, hence why I tested new coils on a scope. Let's say you taped a dime directly to the coil. On a scope you would see that RX is now pre-loaded with a dime signal, but because it's a motion machine and the dime is not in motion relative to the coil the Explorer will settle down and return to threshold, even though it's negatively impacted now by the dime taped to the coil.

There's no re-tuning coils, they are permanently encased/frozen in position in epoxy. Getting a detector retuned sounds more like having the control box checked, and any weak capacitors replaced. There are quite a lot of can caps on the Explorer circuit board and can caps dry out and fail over time but I've never had one go bad. Explorers are damn rugged.
Thanks for the enlightenment.
I often wondered how a coil could be tuned since it was sealed/ encased like you stated.
Some years ago, I was having issues with a Tesoro and sent it in to have it checked and when I got it back, I also received a nice hand written note from Rusty the service manager stating that the coil went bad while testing or tuning ( I can’t remember which), and they sent me a new coil.
Thanks again for information!
 
Awesome. Thanks Charles.
Do have a specs on the coils you built for the explorer ?
Wire size. Length. Ohm's. Coil diameters and shapes.
I have concentrics for my Sovereign.
But non for my old XS.
 
Awesome. Thanks Charles.
Do have a specs on the coils you built for the explorer ?
Wire size. Length. Ohm's. Coil diameters and shapes.
I have concentrics for my Sovereign.
But non for my old XS.
I looked high and low but no longer have the coil spec info. Too bad I think I had measured maybe 6 different coils back in the day. The good news is I have the electronic meters (LCR, DMM) and could measure one this weekend. The only Explorer coil I have on hand to measure is the 11" SE Pro coil. That coil has dug pounds of silver and gold so it's a fine example to measure.

From memory I want to say I only had 3 gauges of the thicker TX wire, that pretty much covered the various size coils I was building. I had a bunch of gauges for RX however including half gauge sizes. Some experimentation was required to zero in on the right gauges for a given coil size and design. You end up wasting some wire but you can quickly make a winding on a bobbin, measure, then make adjustments.

This discussion has me on the edge of wanting to build coils again, almost. I'd never consider it except my dual print head 3D printer would be a game changer. Machining bobbins, coil shell molds, molding shells and trimming was extremely time consuming and not that accurate. The whole thing was quite expensive. However the 3D printer pretty much replaces all of that and it can construct bobbins and shells with CNC precision while I sleep or do something else with my time, so it's tempting. A 3D printer also makes the coil wings for the lower rod problem go away, just print whatever design you want. I'll have to think on that. There was always a coil I wanted to experiment with, borrowing from coils people were making for PI detectors. They were using Teflon insulated wire to control capacitance.

All that said it still leaves one of the more problematic issues, the coil cable. The cable is also part of hitting the overall coil specs. Nobody really makes that cable to Minelab's specs. It's a 5 conductor, 2 heavy gauge wires (TX) each individually shielded. They used the 2 shield wires for (RX), plus 1 ground wire. Plus the coiled cord portion of the cable. Not an issue on my heavily modified Explorer but would be for a stock machine. You could scavenge a coil cable from an old coil that maybe went bad. Well it's all coming back to me now, I decided I'd rather spend my time detecting instead of building coils. lol Leave coil building to Minelab and the aftermarket coil companies.
 
I looked high and low but no longer have the coil spec info. Too bad I think I had measured maybe 6 different coils back in the day. The good news is I have the electronic meters (LCR, DMM) and could measure one this weekend. The only Explorer coil I have on hand to measure is the 11" SE Pro coil. That coil has dug pounds of silver and gold so it's a fine example to measure.

From memory I want to say I only had 3 gauges of the thicker TX wire, that pretty much covered the various size coils I was building. I had a bunch of gauges for RX however including half gauge sizes. Some experimentation was required to zero in on the right gauges for a given coil size and design. You end up wasting some wire but you can quickly make a winding on a bobbin, measure, then make adjustments.

This discussion has me on the edge of wanting to build coils again, almost. I'd never consider it except my dual print head 3D printer would be a game changer. Machining bobbins, coil shell molds, molding shells and trimming was extremely time consuming and not that accurate. The whole thing was quite expensive. However the 3D printer pretty much replaces all of that and it can construct bobbins and shells with CNC precision while I sleep or do something else with my time, so it's tempting. A 3D printer also makes the coil wings for the lower rod problem go away, just print whatever design you want. I'll have to think on that. There was always a coil I wanted to experiment with, borrowing from coils people were making for PI detectors. They were using Teflon insulated wire to control capacitance.

All that said it still leaves one of the more problematic issues, the coil cable. The cable is also part of hitting the overall coil specs. Nobody really makes that cable to Minelab's specs. It's a 5 conductor, 2 heavy gauge wires (TX) each individually shielded. They used the 2 shield wires for (RX), plus 1 ground wire. Plus the coiled cord portion of the cable. Not an issue on my heavily modified Explorer but would be for a stock machine. You could scavenge a coil cable from an old coil that maybe went bad. Well it's all coming back to me now, I decided I'd rather spend my time detecting instead of building coils. lol Leave coil building to Minelab and the aftermarket coil companies.
Again. Thank You Charles.
Tiny coax wire and Teflon coating is quite interesting.
I bought a newer digital scope. Still trying to figure it out. Nothing like my old Techtronix that popped.
I have a few class 5 DMM's and an LCR meter.
A great printer would be nice. Don't know which to buy. I have little experience with the LCR meter.
Always did the old school way. Math. Bought it to tune coils for the lcr circuit in an old ham radio I was repairing. Previous owner tried to tweek the coils. Just matched the coil size and specs then tested. Enough ranting.
Metal detecting coils I haven't a clue.
Are their any factory concentric coils for the Explorers ?
Your information is enlightening though without hands on it's difficult for me to follow. Just not clicking in my oll brain. Seems I've forgotten more than I think I know. 🤕
Again thank you Charles.
 
Are their any factory concentric coils for the Explorers ?
Not that I'm aware. The old Minelab 8" (really a 7 inch) was quite good in rusty nail infested areas that would be a good alternative. There was a rusty nail infested area of a park in downtown Albany, NY I rarely found anything with the stock coil. Took that small Minelab coil in there once and dug the crap out of Indian Cents hiding in the iron. I think I dug 9 of them in about a 1 hour hunt in a 20x20 foot patch.
 
Not that I'm aware. The old Minelab 8" (really a 7 inch) was quite good in rusty nail infested areas that would be a good alternative. There was a rusty nail infested area of a park in downtown Albany, NY I rarely found anything with the stock coil. Took that small Minelab coil in there once and dug the crap out of Indian Cents hiding in the iron. I think I dug 9 of them in about a 1 hour hunt in a 20x20 foot patch.
Hoping that little six inch will do as well. Though.
After a strong noreaster hit that beach and made an 18" deep cut. Factory 10" wouldn't run. With that little puck coil I dug 26 silver quarters from the fifties. Until that day I hadn't dug one nor since.
Maybe I can go up there with my son's bobcat and screen it All. 😃. I wish.
I believe I have that 8" DD coil somewhere.
I took it off for the puck coil. Hmmm where's it at ?
 
Hoping that little six inch will do as well. Though.
After a strong noreaster hit that beach and made an 18" deep cut. Factory 10" wouldn't run. With that little puck coil I dug 26 silver quarters from the fifties. Until that day I hadn't dug one nor since.
Maybe I can go up there with my son's bobcat and screen it All. 😃. I wish.
I believe I have that 8" DD coil somewhere.
I took it off for the puck coil. Hmmm where's it at ?
I feel like I want to ask you what your Explorer settings are for the beach because the 11" SE Pro coil works exceptionally well for me on southern NJ beaches including the cut condition you described. The way they have the rock jetties down there you can see noreaster cuts of 8-10 feet of sand removed. Silver coins all over the place. LOTS of iron. I dug untold thousands of targets on those beaches with my Explorer. Well maybe Atlantic City beaches I'd drop down in coil size, that's a trash hell hole.
 
I feel like I want to ask you what your Explorer settings are for the beach because the 11" SE Pro coil works exceptionally well for me on southern NJ beaches including the cut condition you described. The way they have the rock jetties down there you can see noreaster cuts of 8-10 feet of sand removed. Silver coins all over the place. LOTS of iron. I dug untold thousands of targets on those beaches with my Explorer. Well maybe Atlantic City beaches I'd drop down in coil size, that's a trash hell hole.
Man that's Awesome.
I could snapshot my patterns maybe.
Screens fading. Like to find a new one.
Tones are as benign and flat as possible.
I can't hear over 6 khz.
One of my difficulties with the explorer.
Presently I'll focus on the legend and Manticore.
If I get feisty or a bit inebriated I'll try the explorer again on that old beach.
I need to get back to a raized 1801 homestead I started on two yrs ago. Only two trips there then the shoulders thing at work. Forcibly Retired now. 😵
Hopping it's still available.
Found my first large cent there. Horrible emi.
Non of my minelabs ran there.
I think I posted about that under a Tejon post I did last yr. Only the Tejon and turned down Simplex ran their. Not even my trusty oll MXT ran there.
Be waiting on your Manticore adventures. 🤗
 
Top