Balance

[sgoss66]

Hi all.

Almost all detectors made today are nose-heavy/imbalanced, especially when swinging a large coil. That nose-heaviness affects each person differently -- some more, some less, and some very little at all. For those who ARE affected negatively by the nose-heaviness, a very good solution is counterweight (adding weight to the butt end of the shaft). All of the push by manufacturers to make machines as light as possible is GREAT, but it's only half the equation. A light, but very nose-heavy machine, can cause substantial issues, just like a heavier, but very nose-heavy machine. BALANCE MATTERS.

Nose-heaviness, if it's going to be a problem for a given person, will often manifest in the wrist, first. This is often why folks focus on "handle angle" as being "the issue," or the shape of the shaft (s-shaft vs. straight shaft). But, the issue is most often the IMBALANCE that is causing the issue. If a machine is nose-heavy, then it is your WRIST that is having to apply the "counter-force" to lift the coil, and KEEP it lifted. And over time, for many, fatigue/discomfort results. Along with the wrist, the discomfort often translates to other parts of your arm, often manifesting in the elbow, and for some even the shoulder. BUT -- the root cause, when you trace it back, is that almost ALL machines built today have a relatively heavy coil out at the end of a long "lever" (shaft), with very little if any compensating weight at the OTHER end of the shaft. And so, to lift the coil, YOU have to do that job -- with muscular exertion, as there is no "weight" at the other end of the shaft to "assist" with lifting the coil. Just think of the old see-saw/teeter-totter on the playground, analogy. YES, you could use your muscles to lift a child that is sitting on one end of the teeter-totter...but how much easier is it to simply set ANOTHER child on the OTHER end, and allow the WEIGHT of the second child, to lift the first...

This is an ergonomic problem, and a recipe for fatigue/discomfort. Counterweighting will resolve it in almost all cases, as soon as people get past the "mental hurdle" of "but I'm making my machine heavier if I add counterweight." Yes, you are. But, it's "heavier" in the "right way." There's a reason, when we carry a very long item (such as a board, for instance) that we instinctively carry it FROM THE MIDDLE. We KNOW that such an item is easier to carry when it's in BALANCE (equal weight on both sides), than when it is not (i.e. we pick up the board too close to one end).

The D2 shafts I'm now building are better balanced, because I FIRST reduce the overall weight of the shaft itself (via carbon fiber), but THEN, I REDISTRIBUTE the weight, also, by using a heavier arm cuff than the stock cuff. The result is a shaft that weighs essentially the same as the stock shaft, BUT, with an extra 3 to 4 ounces AT THE BUTT END (via the cuff). Beyond that balance improvement, I ALSO can build these shafts "counterweight-ready" -- i.e. with a fitting installed in the butt end, to allow attachment of my optional counterweighting system. SO, for anyone who wants their Deus to be even BETTER balanced, the ability to counterweight the shaft is therefore also an option, with my counterweight-ready shaft.

Again, it's a physics issue; using the teeter-totter/see-saw on the playground analogy, you are at least in the ballpark of visualizing WHY the issue with modern machines is BALANCE, and how it can be rectified by counterweighting.

Steve

 

[Mudwhale]

What wrist issues were you having? I haven't yet encountered any.

I have never had wrist issues. Steves shaft is much more comfortable than the stock shaft because the grip feels narrower. Steve's cuff design it where the main difference lies. It's taller and gives more leverage so you don't feel any coil weight/heaviness. Steve did a fantastic job with his design.

 

[Mudwhale]

Hi all.

Almost all detectors made today are nose-heavy/imbalanced, especially when swinging a large coil. That nose-heaviness affects each person differently -- some more, some less, and some very little at all. For those who ARE affected negatively by the nose-heaviness, a very good solution is counterweight (adding weight to the butt end of the shaft). All of the push by manufacturers to make machines as light as possible is GREAT, but it's only half the equation. A light, but very nose-heavy machine, can cause substantial issues, just like a heavier, but very nose-heavy machine. BALANCE MATTERS.

Nose-heaviness, if it's going to be a problem for a given person, will often manifest in the wrist, first. This is often why folks focus on "handle angle" as being "the issue," or the shape of the shaft (s-shaft vs. straight shaft). But, the issue is most often the IMBALANCE that is causing the issue. If a machine is nose-heavy, then it is your WRIST that is having to apply the "counter-force" to lift the coil, and KEEP it lifted. And over time, for many, fatigue/discomfort results. Along with the wrist, the discomfort often translates to other parts of your arm, often manifesting in the elbow, and for some even the shoulder. BUT -- the root cause, when you trace it back, is that almost ALL machines built today have a relatively heavy coil out at the end of a long "lever" (shaft), with very little if any compensating weight at the OTHER end of the shaft. And so, to lift the coil, YOU have to do that job -- with muscular exertion, as there is no "weight" at the other end of the shaft to "assist" with lifting the coil. Just think of the old see-saw/teeter-totter on the playground, analogy. YES, you could use your muscles to lift a child that is sitting on one end of the teeter-totter...but how much easier is it to simply set ANOTHER child on the OTHER end, and allow the WEIGHT of the second child, to lift the first...

This is an ergonomic problem, and a recipe for fatigue/discomfort. Counterweighting will resolve it in almost all cases, as soon as people get past the "mental hurdle" of "but I'm making my machine heavier if I add counterweight." Yes, you are. But, it's "heavier" in the "right way." There's a reason, when we carry a very long item (such as a board, for instance) that we instinctively carry it FROM THE MIDDLE. We KNOW that such an item is easier to carry when it's in BALANCE (equal weight on both sides), than when it is not (i.e. we pick up the board too close to one end).

The D2 shafts I'm now building are better balanced, because I FIRST reduce the overall weight of the shaft itself (via carbon fiber), but THEN, I REDISTRIBUTE the weight, also, by using a heavier arm cuff than the stock cuff. The result is a shaft that weighs essentially the same as the stock shaft, BUT, with an extra 3 to 4 ounces AT THE BUTT END (via the cuff). Beyond that balance improvement, I ALSO can build these shafts "counterweight-ready" -- i.e. with a fitting installed in the butt end, to allow attachment of my optional counterweighting system. SO, for anyone who wants their Deus to be even BETTER balanced, the ability to counterweight the shaft is therefore also an option, with my counterweight-ready shaft.

Again, it's a physics issue; using the teeter-totter/see-saw on the playground analogy, you are at least in the ballpark of visualizing WHY the issue with modern machines is BALANCE, and how it can be rectified by counterweighting.

Steve

Steve
AWESOME post! Loving mine and perfect design. I think because of your cuff design I wouldn't feel any trouble swinging the 13" coil.

 

[sgoss66]

Steve
AWESOME post! Loving mine and perfect design. I think because of your cuff design I wouldn't feel any trouble swinging the 13" coil.

THANK YOU for the kind words, and I'm so glad you are pleased with the design. Yes, there's alot of "thought" that went into that cuff design, and how it would affect "performance" (feel/balance) of the shaft overall. That, plus a focus on making the stand taller (so that it actually allows the machine to "stand upright" without easily toppling over) were certainly major points of focus.

Thanks!

Steve

 

[Charlives]

I think it's the most top heavy detector ever, BUT it doesn't matter as the whole thing is soooo light. Disclosure- I use the 9in coil.

 

[JC99328]

I put 12-14oz (didn't weigh it) right under the arm cuff. I went out yesterday for about 4 hours and I didn't have any arm soreness. Also, I had a new, and heavier 13" coil on. I did reverse attach it, so it wouldn't feel as nose heavy.

 

[Mark kus]

I prefer the D2 with the 9" coil I used mine yesterday and it was great in the woods swinging it all afternoon the 11" I had I never like the feel of it.
Mark

 

[DigDog]

I think alot depends on the length you extend the shaft. Shorter people probably not as bad as taller people.
Anderson shafts came out with a straight shaft for some detectors that is pretty much what alot of new style detectors have which is just a handle on the top side so the shaft and coil is below your hand not above and the control box is on top of the handle on the new detectors. Ex. ML Nox, NM legend.
I personally prefer the S shaft design, just feels better but im on the short side.

 

[sgoss66]

I think alot depends on the length you extend the shaft. Shorter people probably not as bad as taller people.

You are correct -- to an extent. Shaft length ABSOLUTELY matters, but it's a "relative" thing -- i.e. a taller person running a 52" shaft length will find the shaft more comfortable than a shorter person running that same 52" shaft length. What MATTERS, is how "horizontal" the shaft is, relative to the ground. In other words, the farther out in front of your feet you want your coil to be, the more difficult it will be (from a balance/nose-heaviness perspective) to swing the machine, for long periods of time.

If you simply keep this thought in mind..."I want my machine to feel as comfortable as possible, so I am going to set my lower rod length such that I can keep my shaft as UPRIGHT as possible, i.e. with the coil as close to my feet as possible, as I swing the machine"...then you are on the right track. The physics behind this, shows up in a vector analysis...but no reason to over-complicate things by going there. Basically, the more upright the shaft, the less leverage is exerted on you by the coil's weight. Therefore, the less you are fighting the coil's weight, with your wrist/arm.

Steve

 

[DigDog]

You are correct -- to an extent. Shaft length ABSOLUTELY matters, but it's a "relative" thing -- i.e. a taller person running a 52" shaft length will find the shaft more comfortable than a shorter person running that same 52" shaft length. What MATTERS, is how "horizontal" the shaft is, relative to the ground. In other words, the farther out in front of your feet you want your coil to be, the more difficult it will be (from a balance/nose-heaviness perspective) to swing the machine, for long periods of time.

If you simply keep this thought in mind..."I want my machine to feel as comfortable as possible, so I am going to set my lower rod length such that I can keep my shaft as UPRIGHT as possible, i.e. with the coil as close to my feet as possible, as I swing the machine"...then you are on the right track. The physics behind this, shows up in a vector analysis...but no reason to over-complicate things by going there. Basically, the more upright the shaft, the less leverage is exerted on you by the coil's weight. Therefore, the less you are fighting the coil's weight, with your wrist/arm.

Steve

Thanks just looking at your site.
I guess it depends what someone is primarily looking for if it will work best.
My main thing is least weight and a short length mainly in the handgrip to butt with a short arm cuff. Unfortunately for me they are just the opposite of what i was looking for but apparently what most other people want.
Looked at carbon fiber lower shaft but none that work with stock upper.

 

[DigDog]

Just have to keep the coil close to my feet as i am on the shorter side

 

[relicmeister]

I have the lighter weight XP stock shaft for my 9” coil with WS6 master, which is a dream to swing, especially since being 5’6” I do not over extend the lower shaft too far. I bet 4 ounces of counterweight at the cuff end would be worth adding for ultimate comfort. Now for my 11” coil and the remote, I have the stock D2 shaft. I just taped a (relic) bar of lead ( about 8-10 oz?) to the very end of the arm cuff, and that made the whole unit almost as easy to swing as the 9” rig. I admit I do still want to get the upgrade to Steve’s shaft but I just bought a Legend so it has to wait a little longer. By the way, I only use the remote on the 11” and when I wish to use the remote and 9” coil , I just install it on that shaft. When I get the Steve’s shaft, I will probably use both coils on it along with remote only, and his counterweight for mainly the big coil.
Personally, I think manufacturers should begin to make their shaft’s counterweight ready and offer them as an option, though I doubt that will happen.

 

[sgoss66]

Thanks just looking at your site.
I guess it depends what someone is primarily looking for if it will work best.
My main thing is least weight and a short length mainly in the handgrip to butt with a short arm cuff. Unfortunately for me they are just the opposite of what i was looking for but apparently what most other people want.
Looked at carbon fiber lower shaft but none that work with stock upper.

DigDog -- if you have something you prefer, length-wise, and it differs from my "standard configuration," please DO NOT hesitate to contact me. One thing that I really aim to do, is to please my customers by meeting any specific needs they may have. And often, that results in the need for a "custom" shaft build, for certain customers -- which I am ALWAYS happy to do.

So, if your goal is to minimize weight, and keep the shaft as short as possible -- including in the "handgrip to butt" distance, that is NO problem at all. A short discussion with you, to hammer out the lengths you want (for each of the shaft sections) would do the trick, and I could then build it customized, just for you.

Bottom line, please don't give up on a shaft, just because my "standard" lengths differ from what you prefer. I'm ALWAYS happy to customize...

Steve

 

[sgoss66]

relicmeister,

If/when you are ready, I am certain that my shaft would serve you quite well, based on what you described. Indeed, a few ounces of counterweight with the 9" coil makes complete sense, and is part of why I made my arm cuff 3 to 4 ounces heavier than the stock arm cuff. I was able to keep the SAME shaft weight, BUT, redistribute the weight with more of it toward the "butt end," and less of it toward the "coil end." The idea here is to make the machine much more balanced, and thus comfortable, especially when swinging the 9" coil (just as you surmised that adding a few ounces of counterweighting would do, with the 9" coil).

And then, as you said, adding 8 to 10 oz. of counterweight, when using the 11" coil, ALSO makes sense -- reducing the effect of the added weight when switching from the 9" to the 11" coil. You are right on track there, and -- as I noted above -- if you don't need the extra length I add to my "standard" shaft, as compared to the stock shaft, I am happy to reduce the section lengths for you, which would lighten it up even further...

Steve

 

[DigDog]

DigDog -- if you have something you prefer, length-wise, and it differs from my "standard configuration," please DO NOT hesitate to contact me. One thing that I really aim to do, is to please my customers by meeting any specific needs they may have. And often, that results in the need for a "custom" shaft build, for certain customers -- which I am ALWAYS happy to do.

So, if your goal is to minimize weight, and keep the shaft as short as possible -- including in the "handgrip to butt" distance, that is NO problem at all. A short discussion with you, to hammer out the lengths you want (for each of the shaft sections) would do the trick, and I could then build it customized, just for you.

Bottom line, please don't give up on a shaft, just because my "standard" lengths differ from what you prefer. I'm ALWAYS happy to customize...

Steve

Ok thanks Steve i will contact you sometime soon. I personally don’t prefer the new style (lite) shaft that is one solid piece of plastic either. You can’t adjust the cuff my understanding and as i said need it on the short side and not overly big. The weight difference is one of the two big factors one being the length which i need short most need longer and as for the weight the new lite version is 70g lighter about 0.25 pounds lighter. Not lighter enough for me to go with the one piece plastic version. I thought carbon fiber would be lighter but i will talk to you about it. Thanks

 

[BigTony]

You are correct -- to an extent. Shaft length ABSOLUTELY matters, but it's a "relative" thing -- i.e. a taller person running a 52" shaft length will find the shaft more comfortable than a shorter person running that same 52" shaft length. What MATTERS, is how "horizontal" the shaft is, relative to the ground. In other words, the farther out in front of your feet you want your coil to be, the more difficult it will be (from a balance/nose-heaviness perspective) to swing the machine, for long periods of time.

If you simply keep this thought in mind..."I want my machine to feel as comfortable as possible, so I am going to set my lower rod length such that I can keep my shaft as UPRIGHT as possible, i.e. with the coil as close to my feet as possible, as I swing the machine"...then you are on the right track. The physics behind this, shows up in a vector analysis...but no reason to over-complicate things by going there. Basically, the more upright the shaft, the less leverage is exerted on you by the coil's weight. Therefore, the less you are fighting the coil's weight, with your wrist/arm.

Steve

Will that tend to make you swing slower?

 

[DigDog]

Will that tend to make you swing slower?

I guess it depends how far out you extend your arm and how comfortable you are. For me i can swing faster closer since not stretching so far.

 

[sgoss66]

Ok thanks Steve i will contact you sometime soon. I personally don’t prefer the new style (lite) shaft that is one solid piece of plastic either. You can’t adjust the cuff my understanding and as i said need it on the short side and not overly big. The weight difference is one of the two big factors one being the length which i need short most need longer and as for the weight the new lite version is 70g lighter about 0.25 pounds lighter. Not lighter enough for me to go with the one piece plastic version. I thought carbon fiber would be lighter but i will talk to you about it. Thanks

Sounds good! I'll look forward to chatting with you...

Steve

 

[sgoss66]

Will that tend to make you swing slower?

Tony, that's a tough one for me to answer; I generally use Minelab machines, and as such, have learned to utilize a very "slow sweep speed." That's my "bias," and so I tend to sweep very slow ANYWAY, as I have definitely found that allowing the machine more time to process and take in information about the target. BUT -- that may not be true with other machines, and so it's a case of "I may not know what I don't know," if that makes sense. I know some folks speak of some machines needing a "faster sweep speed," and so I skeptically accept that that may be the case. BUT, my personal opinion is that a slow sweep speed SHOULD be better, for almost ANY machine, but then when you locate a target of interest, varying your sweep speed over the center of a target as you "interrogate" the target, makes sense, as you can glean different information when doing so. I will say this, though (but again, remember that I am "Minelab-biased" in terms of my experiences), more often than not when I locate a target and begin to "interrogate," I often slow my sweep down FURTHER, at least for a portion of the time I am "interrogating," and one benefit of doing so is it REALLY reduces the tendency for iron to "false high tone."

ANYWAY, my long-winded point here, is that since I run a short shaft length, and since I sweep slowly by nature, I don't know if the short shaft length helps to encourage that slow sweep that I like, OR if it hinders any ability to sweep faster. In other words, I'm so set in my habits, in terms of how I detect, that I don't know if running your shaft shorter would -- by nature -- slow down your sweep speed, or not. My guess is that it probably would tend to do so, but my guess is ALSO that that would NOT be a bad thing, in most cases!

Steve

 

[BigTony]

Tony, that's a tough one for me to answer; I generally use Minelab machines, and as such, have learned to utilize a very "slow sweep speed." That's my "bias," and so I tend to sweep very slow ANYWAY, as I have definitely found that allowing the machine more time to process and take in information about the target. BUT -- that may not be true with other machines, and so it's a case of "I may not know what I don't know," if that makes sense. I know some folks speak of some machines needing a "faster sweep speed," and so I skeptically accept that that may be the case. BUT, my personal opinion is that a slow sweep speed SHOULD be better, for almost ANY machine, but then when you locate a target of interest, varying your sweep speed over the center of a target as you "interrogate" the target, makes sense, as you can glean different information when doing so. I will say this, though (but again, remember that I am "Minelab-biased" in terms of my experiences), more often than not when I locate a target and begin to "interrogate," I often slow my sweep down FURTHER, at least for a portion of the time I am "interrogating," and one benefit of doing so is it REALLY reduces the tendency for iron to "false high tone."

ANYWAY, my long-winded point here, is that since I run a short shaft length, and since I sweep slowly by nature, I don't know if the short shaft length helps to encourage that slow sweep that I like, OR if it hinders any ability to sweep faster. In other words, I'm so set in my habits, in terms of how I detect, that I don't know if running your shaft shorter would -- by nature -- slow down your sweep speed, or not. My guess is that it probably would tend to do so, but my guess is ALSO that that would NOT be a bad thing, in most cases!

Steve

Steve, I believe it does slow a person down. A past hunt partner would crawl forward sweeping at his toes, he did very well. I have used his method in several good areas to listen for the squeaks on deeming targets.
Tony