Find's Treasure Forums
Welcome to Find's Treasure Forums, Guests!
You are viewing this forums as a guest which limits you to read only status.
Only registered members may post stories, questions, classifieds, reply to other posts, contact other members using built in messaging and use many other features found on these forums.
Why not register and join us today? It's free! (We don't share your email addresses with anyone.) We keep email addresses of our users to protect them and others from bad people posting things they shouldn't.
Click here to register!
Need Support Help?
Cannot log in?, click here to have new password emailed to you
APEX nail board test
- Thread starter Shelton
- Start date
Although I find these various nail tests somewhat interesting, 2 major flaws remain with these tests.
1) The nails are all the same level (height) on a horizontal plain. Which means, if you could raise a nail or group of nails to a greater or lessor height, the results would dramatically change. Which would allow one to manipulate the results. In other words, one would have to first ask, what exactly trying to prove with this test? There are literally, thousands of examples of nails and target positionings if you turn this into a 3 dimensional test, which, of course matches to the real world field matrix.
2) Even with the nails the same elevation on a horizontal plain, any nail ban be moved slightly in a parallel or adjacent direction, again, changing the results. It is lacking any international set of rules/guidelines such as size of board, length, mass and composition of nails. Also, size of coin and again composition of coin. One also has to ask how mineralization of the surrounding matrix of nails/coin would effect the final outcome.
Sorry for ranting on, but I have been involved with medical research, involving a triple blind drug studies, a double blind drug study and a life-saving E. coli O157:H7 (hamburger disease) intervention test. All these tests have extremely high standards. This nail test is really flawed in so many ways as I have explained. And we haven't even dabbled into the different characteristics of the detectors, such as operating frequencies, sizes of coils etc.
1) The nails are all the same level (height) on a horizontal plain. Which means, if you could raise a nail or group of nails to a greater or lessor height, the results would dramatically change. Which would allow one to manipulate the results. In other words, one would have to first ask, what exactly trying to prove with this test? There are literally, thousands of examples of nails and target positionings if you turn this into a 3 dimensional test, which, of course matches to the real world field matrix.
2) Even with the nails the same elevation on a horizontal plain, any nail ban be moved slightly in a parallel or adjacent direction, again, changing the results. It is lacking any international set of rules/guidelines such as size of board, length, mass and composition of nails. Also, size of coin and again composition of coin. One also has to ask how mineralization of the surrounding matrix of nails/coin would effect the final outcome.
Sorry for ranting on, but I have been involved with medical research, involving a triple blind drug studies, a double blind drug study and a life-saving E. coli O157:H7 (hamburger disease) intervention test. All these tests have extremely high standards. This nail test is really flawed in so many ways as I have explained. And we haven't even dabbled into the different characteristics of the detectors, such as operating frequencies, sizes of coils etc.
Dave_E
Troll
John,
Have you done, or have you found, any videos that accurately show the target separation abilities of the Apex?
2D, 3D, or otherwise?
Thanks.
IowaRelic
Well-known member
Aside from the flaws of the test, how do you explain its just outright poor performance? Even if it’s a flawed test, it has still been widely used as a benchmark for performance in iron. So all machines are tested on a flawed test and this one does worse than most. So is there something in the APEX that says “ no, I won’t separate these targets for you, sir. because, I know this is not a real world situation”? I have a feeling there is going to be months of endless defense of this machine just because of who makes it. I hope everyone gets them so I can get all the goods out the iron patch with my Time Ranger Pro. I’m not trying to be a smartee, just calling it like I see it. Go watch chiggs first outings with it. He digs a lot of iron with it. He knows garrets and he sure knows how to run a machine. Clue number one right there.
Joseph in Alabama
Active member
I am suprised the f19 done so well against the multi freq. ..joe
Last edited:
IowaRelic
Well-known member
You can’t hide your sarcasm in text!
J/k
relicmeister
Well-known member
The coming reviews and test videos are going to be interesting. Had one on order but cancelled it after some early negative reports.
Dave_E
Troll
I cancelled my order too. Ended up ordering a used Equinox 600 to go with my Nokta Impact.
I was very hopeful for the Apex, but I'm now wondering if it can even perform as well as an Ace 400 AT Pro.
You're right the coming reviews and videos will be interesting. We need to see more.
vito
Well-known member
Thanks for this, Shelton.
I'm about two and a half weeks tardy replying to this topic on this forum. It's been mentioned on other forums where we have discussed the new Apex.
As for testing a detector, anyone can imagine or dream up some sort of a test just to be a test. In the case of my Nail Board Performance Test, it's based on an actual, in the field encounter at the ghost town of Frisco Utah Memorial Day weekend of '94. I duplicated the exact layout of the Indian Head using those four nails that were surrounding it in their actual position. From that I had a sign maker make Nail Board test kits for me that are exact duplications. Several manufacturers have one of my Nail Boards, and that now includes Garrett, after I saw the test done by Steve Moore.
One thing I noticed about some of the tests were that the Nail Board layouts people used were not to scale with the original which I have been relying on for 26 years of detector evaluations.
Some of the tests that were posted also we're not using the proper settings and that resulted in testing errors that gave iron nails a higher tone reading.
Let me just add my personal results using the Apex with its standard 6 x 11 Viper coil. If I am hunting a site that is heavily littered with iron nails, I am not going to use a mid-size or a bigger-size search coil. I'm going to use a smaller coil that will work more efficiently in and around all of the nails. Garrett has not made a smaller coil yet, and I hope they will soon, but I was personally surprised at how well the Apex and Viper coil performed.
You don't do this test with a little wiggle but instead you sweep the coil from left to right and right to left completely across the Nail Board just as you would encounter things while out hunting a site. And making a complete side to side sweep along the four different routes from both directions gives you a possible eight hits on the centered coin. The Apex and Viper coil will produce 6 out of 8 and sometimes give an iffy 7th hit. For that oversized coil that is very good performance. There are a lot of coin hunting detectors that I have enjoyed for urban coin hunting that won't get more than one or two hits using a 5in Double-D coil, so that is an indication the Apex and Viper are impressive.
On Monday I got my second Apex and set my custom discrimination settings the same as my original Apex, and then I used both models with the same settings and their own Viper coil and did some comparisons. Each of them performed very similarly and worked well on the Nail Board and a couple of other iron nail test challenges I put them up to.
I am pleased with what Garrett has given us in the Apex and I bought my second unit so that I'm ready when they release a small coil so I can keep the two devices ready to grab with a Viper coil or a small coil, based on the type of site I encounter.
Monte
As for testing a detector, anyone can imagine or dream up some sort of a test just to be a test. In the case of my Nail Board Performance Test, it's based on an actual, in the field encounter at the ghost town of Frisco Utah Memorial Day weekend of '94. I duplicated the exact layout of the Indian Head using those four nails that were surrounding it in their actual position. From that I had a sign maker make Nail Board test kits for me that are exact duplications. Several manufacturers have one of my Nail Boards, and that now includes Garrett, after I saw the test done by Steve Moore.
One thing I noticed about some of the tests were that the Nail Board layouts people used were not to scale with the original which I have been relying on for 26 years of detector evaluations.
Some of the tests that were posted also we're not using the proper settings and that resulted in testing errors that gave iron nails a higher tone reading.
Let me just add my personal results using the Apex with its standard 6 x 11 Viper coil. If I am hunting a site that is heavily littered with iron nails, I am not going to use a mid-size or a bigger-size search coil. I'm going to use a smaller coil that will work more efficiently in and around all of the nails. Garrett has not made a smaller coil yet, and I hope they will soon, but I was personally surprised at how well the Apex and Viper coil performed.
You don't do this test with a little wiggle but instead you sweep the coil from left to right and right to left completely across the Nail Board just as you would encounter things while out hunting a site. And making a complete side to side sweep along the four different routes from both directions gives you a possible eight hits on the centered coin. The Apex and Viper coil will produce 6 out of 8 and sometimes give an iffy 7th hit. For that oversized coil that is very good performance. There are a lot of coin hunting detectors that I have enjoyed for urban coin hunting that won't get more than one or two hits using a 5in Double-D coil, so that is an indication the Apex and Viper are impressive.
On Monday I got my second Apex and set my custom discrimination settings the same as my original Apex, and then I used both models with the same settings and their own Viper coil and did some comparisons. Each of them performed very similarly and worked well on the Nail Board and a couple of other iron nail test challenges I put them up to.
I am pleased with what Garrett has given us in the Apex and I bought my second unit so that I'm ready when they release a small coil so I can keep the two devices ready to grab with a Viper coil or a small coil, based on the type of site I encounter.
Monte
C
calabash digger
Guest
Apex is good in iron....the thing's that people say that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm...... Go watch Iffy Signals APEX VS VANQUISH video on iron separation capabilities of each detector....
C
calabash digger
Guest
will be doing my OWN test today on way to pick up a Apex and Simplex.....
IowaRelic
Well-known member
IowaRelic
Well-known member
I saw it... something smells dead afterwards. Hey, I’d love to see the Time Ranger Pro in the mix on these tests. It’s another solid performer at a low price. I let mine go as a gift to the father in law. Slap that apex back on the counter and demand a TRP. 400 bucks.
Nauti
Well-known member
At last,somebody who recognises the futility of nailboard tests........thankyou John.
eSCANZ
Member
nail board test -
its a 'universal' test used to gauge performance in heavy iron
just because your preferred device under-performs
there is no need to junk the test -
it quickly shows us where a weakness lies
flawed or not
the same logic people use on air tests "I have never found a coin floating in the air" me neither
again a simple test to give the tester fast results on tone / sound / basic performance etc
if you cannot gather USEFUL information from either of the two above tests
then I am sure you will also struggle in other areas of the hobby
its a 'universal' test used to gauge performance in heavy iron
just because your preferred device under-performs
there is no need to junk the test -
it quickly shows us where a weakness lies
flawed or not
the same logic people use on air tests "I have never found a coin floating in the air" me neither
again a simple test to give the tester fast results on tone / sound / basic performance etc
if you cannot gather USEFUL information from either of the two above tests
then I am sure you will also struggle in other areas of the hobby
Nauti
Well-known member
It's a universal test that is completely flawed.This shows how a detector performs amongst iron above the soil.....great if you search for objects lying on the surface in amongst iron.I don't make up my observations,i test them before i comment.If you do a nailboard test with a certain detector you will get a set of results.If you bury the same nailboard and leave it for a while for the ground to settle......you know,actual detecting conditions.....,,,,you will get a totally different set of results.An above ground nailboard test is totally useless to show how one detector performs on targets amongst iron underground.It is also useless as a test one detector against another.The only way to show how a detector performs on targets amongst iron is to test them on buried targets......FACT.Another useless test i often see is people showing how well their machine discriminates against an object such as an old rusty horse shoe.They wave their coil over the horse shoe adjust the discrim so it knocks out the shoe and then demonstrate how well their machine can still pick up a tiny good target.Well i'm sorry but if that horse shoe has been buried in the ground,undisturbed for a period of time,it will be picked up by the same detector far more easily than it is in the air on the same discrim setting.
I've tested targets above ground and recreated the tests under proper detecting conditions......until you do the same don't believe that a nailboard test can show the strengths and weaknesses of a certain detector on targets that have been in the ground for maybe hundreds of years.I bet many have purchased metal detectors after watching nailboard tests only to find that their new purchase doesn't quite live up to the results they have witnessed on youtube videos.
As for struggling in the hobby,i have found many small hammered and roman coins and artefacts in iron infested areas over here in the uk,i've had massive success on the beaches and have found objects that have ended up at the British museum.......and never once took any notice of a nailboard or air test.
I've tested targets above ground and recreated the tests under proper detecting conditions......until you do the same don't believe that a nailboard test can show the strengths and weaknesses of a certain detector on targets that have been in the ground for maybe hundreds of years.I bet many have purchased metal detectors after watching nailboard tests only to find that their new purchase doesn't quite live up to the results they have witnessed on youtube videos.
As for struggling in the hobby,i have found many small hammered and roman coins and artefacts in iron infested areas over here in the uk,i've had massive success on the beaches and have found objects that have ended up at the British museum.......and never once took any notice of a nailboard or air test.
vito
Well-known member
You do not hunt fresh plowed fields, do you? Ah naa, your detectors only like undisturbed grounds. lOl