Andy S. and all other concerned E-Trac users...Help

[unearth]

Ok folks, I mostly hunt parks and I'm not understanding what I may be doing wrong, if anything. So...help is needed here.
My set up for my E-Trac is as such: FE 27 to 35 disc out, plus a bit more at the bottom right corner; Vol. Limit 29; Gain at 24; Response Normal; Auto plus 1,2, or 3 if stable enough; Multi Tones; Sounds Conductivity; Variability 30; Limits 29; Threshold Pitch 19; Pinpoint Sizing.
I have read posts on this forum about finding coins in the same hole as nails or other iron objects because of the "see through" capabilities of the E-Trac. While I was at a park detecting yesterday, with the above set up, I got a good target reading and then put a piece of iron, in this case a rusty nail, over the top of the good target that was buried. I re-swept the target area but I was unable to hear the good target that was in the ground. I swept from different directions and all I got was silence. I removed the rusty nail from on top of the good target and the good target sound came through loud and clear. I did this with 4 different good targets which I dug up. One was a clad quarter, two were clad dimes and one memorial penny. I did this test with fast on, deep off; fast off, deep on. I did not try this with both either on or off. By the way, none of the targets were more than 3 or 4 inches deep.
I also tried this test with a silver and a gold ring. This test was on top of the ground. I put the gold ring down on the ground with the nail, about 2" away, to the side and all I got was silence. Same with the silver ring. Once I removed the nail I could hear the rings again.
So...my question is. What, if anything am I doing wrong with my set up? Or is this the way the E-Trac works. Does this "see through" capability only work if both items are in the ground instead of one being buried and one on top of the ground, as in my test?
Any and all help will be appreciated. I've included a pic of my disc pattern.
Thanks in advance for any info you may have.
HH Gary

 

[txbluesman]

Are you running your sensitivity at 3 Manual???? If so, that might be the problem.

- My best guess would be that the nail is projecting as the better target since it is physically closer to the coil than your buried "good" target. Try the same test with both items on the surface and you will see that the results are different.

 

[diggernash]

I'll give an answer that is at best an educated guess on my part, so take it with a grain of salt. I have no electronics background and probably only 75 hours on the ET.

That being said, I believe "see through" iron is stated often, but is a misleading phrase. I have found good targets mixed with iron, but the iron was always small and never shallower than the good target. So I believe that the ET is very good at picking out good targets in the iron, but like all detectors, good targets can be masked. I think the ability to pick up the good among the bad is a function of the size of the good target, size of iron, depth of good target, and depth of iron. For example, little good target deeper than big iron target; ET is not going to see it. Big good target shallower than little iron target; ET is going to see it. Then the response given for every target combination between these two extremes is based on the relation of the size and depths of the targets. At some point in the relationship the iron signal will over power the good signal from being received.

Hopefully Andy will post an answer, he is much more knowledgeable than I am. He may tell me I need to put the training wheels back on...LOL.

BTW, I have a much easier time picking out targets in trash using 4 tones instead of multi.

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

Seriously, when you dig enough targets you will kinda get a an idea on which signals to skip over and which to dig.

That being said....... after having a EX II, SE and now an E-trac with several hours on all of them......... I still have no method!!!

 

[JCJEXPLORER]

Here is my two cent: I found a nice Merc dime under a nail in a field. (I say under but only can say for sure that the dime was deeper than the nail.) The signal was chirpy and not a nice round sound. I tried to improve the signal by swinging in different directions and nothing made the roundness of the target come out. The readings were jumping all around. I called my friend over and had him swing his Nautilus over it and he stated a "NAIL". What made me dig the signal was the "SOUND." I thought it sounded like silver and not the end of a nail or some other piece of iron. (two different sounds) I found the nail first and then swung over the hole again and got the rounded sound of silver. My point would be this. If it sounds good dig it. I agree with diggernash, see-through ability is misleading.

 

[unearth]

Hello All-
Thanks for the replies. To answer your question txbluesman, no I wasn't running at manual 3. That is on the picture because I took the pic in the house and wanted to stop the unit from making noise so I lowered the sensitivity.

I run my sensitivity at whatever the Auto is + 1, 2 or 3 dependent on stability.

To answer the question about digging by sound instead of numbers. I always try to go by the audio and then look to see where the cursor is. But...if it sounds good, I agree, dig it.

My problem was, I wasn't getting any sound. But that may be because the iron was closer to the coil, and/or just the fact that the iron was above the good target and blanked out the good target as diggernash stated.

HH Gary

 

[jimpugh]

Having dug thirty pounds of lead brass and pulltabs in some of the worst trashy iron conditions imaginable....

the sound and the meter are separate...

The meter will tend to average the target more say three inch cut nail laid over 14 kt medium gold ring may read foil or pulltab...where the ring by itself would read high pulltab or low screw cap...

The sound will tell the truth more often than NOT......remember to check targets that read only east and west but not north and south or vice- versa .....Cross targets are easy ...one ways are learners and right or left sweep reports.... only .....are the ones.... to master

And finally did you try it with the ferrous more open ......the ring gold or not..... all may have the correct gold purity but the alloy mixture can very substantially from one gold item two the next....and this can effect your ferrous readings.......for better or worse

Hope this helps.... these are just my own experiences......but you will need to progress where you can run almost wide open in manual and always know when TO pull the hammer back...

Happy New Year Trails
Jim Pugh

 

[JCJEXPLORER]

Adding to Jim's point of "run almost wide open" I have now switched to an open screen (WIDE OPEN) with only the FER disc out to 34. My first two hunts with this new mode were poor on the total finds but rich in the learning of the SOUNDS. Reason was I was digging all these new sounds that I had not heard in the coin mode. I was just looking at the screen and not really listening and remembering. At first, I was really down on my performance and wanted to get back to the safety of the coin mode, but kept with it and let the machine tell me what was under the coil. (SOUND) I'm now finding good targets at really good depth as well. Sometimes you have to wonder why we need all the stuff the E-trac has to offer (Concerning the screen) when all we really need to do is listen.

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

I come from the school of running my old SE and EX II wide open too. At first it was overwhelming but I finally learned to listen to them and hear thru the trash. I truly believe that the best way to run the explorers, in my opinion. Like butts...... everyone has one! Opinions that is..... ha ha

My E-trac however I believe in it and its discrimination. Once I feel that I totally trust the etrac, how much faster it is and its new discrimination I am going to try to run it wide open like I did the explorers. I know Andy and lots of others say the Etrac is not meant to run that way but I have to try for myself. I really don't think I will like it wide open but who knows. The discrimination patterns seem to work very well.

Right now I LOVE the new Etrac and the coin program. I really think its a step up from the old machines. The new coil I think is the best advantage. It really separates well!

Unearth,

I don't think your going to find a detector out there that will "see thru" what your trying to get it to do. I have dug up 3 coins now in the same hole as rusty nails and still got a good signal. So it CAN do it sometimes in certain situations.The etrac is probably got the best shot out there from what I have seen but there still is no "magic" detector out there that sees and knows all. I wish there was though, cause I would buy if I had to sell a kidney to do it.....ha ha ha

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

n/t

 

[JCJEXPLORER]

Unearth appears to have nails well disc out per his screen. I just did a test in the house. Merc dime and a nail 1" from each other. Sweeping from the nail side first in the coin mode I was nulled out all the way to the Merc with a very small amount of high tone once I was past the nail completely. Coming back with the Merc first same result. Went to the wide open mode I use and no doubt silver signal loud and clear once coil was past the nail. I think that means the more discrm you use the more you limit the machine. Stoopstroop, I like the coin mode as well, but once you get up to speed I would go with as less discrm as possible. Just my thought... What do you think?

 

[Brett]

I have not heard anyone mention their Trash Density settings in this thread. If you are runnin discrimination, and have TD set to LOW and are discriminating Iron, the E-trac will lock onto the strongest signal and ID it. If it's the Iron it will NULL out. If you set TD to HIGH and are discriminating Iron, the E-Trac will always ID the targets that are not discriminated out (accepted targets), even if they are weaker signals. This might explain why switching from discrimination to a wide open pattern lets you hear the high tones of a good target. Check your Trash Density setting and see if it's set to LOW.

Report back on what you guys find out!

Personally because of the way Trash Density works, I'll always prefer to leave it set to HIGH when running a discrimination pattern.

 

[JCJEXPLORER]

Trash Density is always set to high! Only because I have not messed with it since I set it there.

 

[Brett]

Trash Density is always set to high! Only because I have not messed with it since I set it there.

Well then to answer your question, "What do you think?"

I think Trash Density is not working as advertised. I'll have to play around with this myself and see what the dealio is.

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

I went to a tot lot that is really clean and always tons of clad so I thought that would be the best way to "learn" iron mask or wide open. I found several coins then switched over to iron mask. I tried running ferrous to 34 as you said and then also trying running it down to about 27 on each coin. For me about 30ish seems to kill most iron and worked the best. Wide open was just to erratic even in a clean area. My modified coins mode always gave the best signal on all the coins. Yes it would blank some but the coin would pop thru the null. Would I have found the coin in iron mask? Probably, but like I said coins mode make them ring out allot better. Think I'm going to have to stay with coins. As I figured Andy was right about discrimination in my opinion. Maybe coin mode does some internal changes in the software to make targets signal better?????

I met up with a friend later in the day at a place that is horribly iron and trash infested. I still tried the iron mask thing on several coins with the same luck. Modified coins mode still makes the targets sound better. Specially if in heavy trash. I got a very good dime reading at about 6-8 inches that I called my friend over to let him hear. He was getting a signal but not a "dig" signal. I asked him what he was running and he was using iron mask to 25 and semi sens up to 15. First he tried bumping up the sens to 20 like I have it, still bad signal. I asked him to try coins mode and he said "There it is"! Sounds like a dime to me too. He always runs iron mask too. Said he was going to have to rethink how to run his etrac. Target ended up being a 1950 silver dime!!!!! My one and only silver for the day, WHHHOOO HOOOOOO!!!! lol

Is coins mode the best way to hunt???? Heck I don't know!!!! Seems like in the places I tried yesterday it was. I am going to a new spot today and I will try it again. I am not giving up on it just yet. I really liked running my explorers in all metal.

I'm always open ears to new ideas on better ways to catch the mouse so please feel free to give any suggestions or tips!

 

[Brett]

Thanks for the info JC! May I ask what you have modified on your Coins program?

 

[Big Boys Hobbies]

BTW..... ground set to difficult and on high trash. I think those settings need to be on all the time. Deep on fast off. I don't like fast as it distorts the audio to much. If I am in trash I just slow way down. I think that is way more effective. Find a good coin signal in some trash and toggle back and forth between fast on and off. Fast in my opinion isn't my preference. You will see what I mean if you try that experiment. I haven't given up on it completely yet but I haven't found a time when it helped me.

Gain set on 20 so I can hear the difference in depth.

 

[JCJEXPLORER]

Stoopstroop, seems you got the exact opposite results I got. Wonder what is going on with that?????? Now I'm really interested. We have to figure this out. I agree on the coin mode very nice, but I have been hunting CW sites lately. I guess I'm going on the old train of thought that less discrm allows the machine to really shine. One thing for sure is this E-Trac is amazing and it's abilities have not been realized.

Brett: I will respond on the coin mode shortly. I have to see all the setting on the machine and do not have w/me.

 

[Rick(ND)]

I also run the factory coin program with a +3 auto sensitivity(never would with the Explorers as manual was the only way) with difficult ground and high trash and find in several cases I could get a iffy signal that would repeat most of the time and show a bit of a bounce, so I went to the QM and it showed iron most of the time and probably never dug with the Explorer, but in the disc it showed more of a coin, found out it was a wheat penny in with a couple of nails. I feel from what I have seen your observation is correct that the E Trac is made more to be used in a pattern than the QM if looking for anything other than iron. I do need more time out with it, but been very impressed with the E-Trac so far and was hitting more areas (before all this snow and cold hit up here in ND) I had been with the SE Pro and picking out coins in with nails that we all have missed before.
Explorers I used Manual sensitivity and all metal with ferrous tones work the best, but on the E-Track auto sensitivity and a pattern seems to work better for me with the high trash and difficult ground.

Rick

 

[JCJEXPLORER]

Brett, Have not modified the screen at all.

Here are my settings:

Sens: Auto +3
Threshold 20
Vol Limits 30
Vol gain 24
Response Normal

Tone ID
Multi
Sounds Conduct
Vari 30
Limits 30
Threshold pitch 19

Recovery Deep On
Fast off
Trash Dense High
Ground Difficult
Pinpoint Sizing