All the new detectors coming out!

[steve herschbach]

Hi vlad,

You say in the ground performance is the standard to go by.

Are you talking about depth? Target separation? Accuracy of discrimination? No doubt a combination of these and more.

How about the look and feel of the machine? I will admit there are some machines I will not use because they look like Buck Rogers toys, and they may very well work just fine.

How about feature sets. I really do use notch discrimination for what I do. Some swear they will never use it. So as you have seen a lack of notching is something I report unfavorably, but you may not care at all about it.

What about the fact that ground varies so much, and interfence and other factors, that what "performs" well for me may not perform so well for you? I do this in-depth performance test of two units, and declare one the winner. You do the same, and get the opposite results because your conditions vary.

Is one of us a liar? People (not you) are quick to make those kinds of accusations when results do not match. But the fact is more likely differenent machines do better in different locations on different targets. We are both reporting the results in our own areas and the results vary. That is why we see regional favorites develop in detectors.

And we all have our own little personal differences. Maybe I swing my coil fast, you swing yours slow. So just on that basis alone one machine works better for you than I.

Nothing, but absolutely nothing, beats going out and using machines yourself under your own conditions. Which is what I do. But my results cannot substitute for a person doing their own testing.

Steve Herschbach

 

[Frank in NH]

n/t

 

[Ralph Bryant]

If I eMail a dealer that I know handles White's machines, and ask him for a quote, he gives me one, and I buy from him, he ships via whatever method, is that a violation of their dealer policy ? Or is it more a matter of just open and obvious advertising of their machines on a website ? Always wondered about that.

I do know that our local White's dealer charges full retail (plus) and refuses to "deal". I've never bought a machine from him, and doubt I ever will. It just seems that White's should consider stepping into the 21st century with the rest of the industry, and accepting the fact that the internet is here to stay as a vehicle of commerce, whether they like it or not. How could such policy be good for their bottom-line business in the long run ? "Competition", whether "factory authorized" or not, is always going to be there, even if it entails dealing out of the back door.

Ralph

 

[Ralph Bryant]

Could always use a fiberglass slury I suppose. But rebar would make for better discrimination and masking tests, and be a whole lot more fun.

Ralph

 

[Ralph Bryant]

n/t

 

[steve herschbach]

... in Anchorage, Alaska, at least.

I sell about 300 detectors a year, almost all out the front door of my business. I sell Fisher, Garrett, Minelab, Tesoro, and White's. Used to sell Compass and Troy also. I dabble in Internet sales for those brands that allow it (not White's) but it is not a major factor in my sales.

I am a cold-blooded businessman, and so I constantly am trying to discern what my customers are looking for, and then I try and stock it. I believe in trying to give people what they want, which is why I am a multi=line dealer. Alaskans always like gold machines, and so I stock all the brands nugget detectors. Then I cherry pick machines from each brand to stock based what people seem to ask for.

The simple fact is that most people walk in my door looking for a brand or even a particular model. Few walk in with no idea of what they want. And White's is easily the most popular brand in Alaska based on this kind of "pre-sold polling". White's is doing the job, whether by magazine ads, Internet, and, I hear it a lot, those TV ads, to presell their machines.

So I know right this minute people will come in looking for a Matrix M6. I know I need to stock it, and I know it will sell. Because White's is going to sell it for me.

I might get some people come in looking for an X-Terra, but not many. And the ID Edge? I'll be surprised. I stock a number of units as "onesies" that stay on the shelf in the box in case someone comes looking for it, but I do not waste wall space on it. Too many units just confuse customers anyway. So I have units like the GTI-2500, X-Terra, Vaquero, Gold Stinger, and others upstairs in case someone wants one, but I do not display them or mention them unless someone asks.

If the X-Terra got hot, I'd pull another model off my wall, and replace it with the X-Terra. My display space is very valuable, and so the dozen units I keep on the wall are my best-sellers. The public votes with their wallets, and the winners get put on the wall. The also rans stay upstairs. The losers never even get ordered.

We on these forums get all worked up over "performance" but the real truth is all the metal detectors work. Anyone that buys any unit and dedicates themselves TO USING IT will make finds. I can use any machine from and Ace 150 to a Minelab GP 3500 to make great finds. It is 90% operator and 10% machine.

Once you get to the basic fact they all work, all that really sells the machines is marketing. White's is the undisputed king in that regard, in my opinion.

But I would finally note that it appears these things are also very much regional. Alaska has always been "White's country". Some areas are "Garrett country" and in some places everyone is hot on Tesoro. So the local detector crowd also sells what they are using. Most of my Fisher Gold Bug 2 sales come from the fact that lots of people see them being used locally, for good reason.

So my view of the detector market is very biased towards gold detectors in general, and White's in particular. Not because I sell it, but because that is what my local public is looking for. My best-seller this year was the White's GMT, which dealers elsewhere may not even stock.

So marketing sets the stage, and local market differences (gold versus relics) mold the final choices. But once you get the feel for your local market, it is pretty predictable what will sell.

Steve Herschbach

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi Ralph,

Geez, it has been so long since I have read it, I should look it over. But basically White's only has "local dealers" and we are not allowed to display and sell units on our websites.

White's has very old contracts with Kellyco that in effect makes Kellyco an exception to this rule. So Kellyco can advertise direct in Alaska via the net and catalogs but I cannot do the same in Florida. Some dealers get incensed over Kellyco but I do not waste much time over what is. The Kellyco deal goes way back before most of the people complaining about it were even dealers.

As far as I know you can call up any White's dealer anywhere and order what you want, Ralph. I do recommend buying locally but if that is not an option, then find someone you can work with.

Internet marketing is debatable. As a consumer I like to walk into a local store and look at and hold stuff before I buy. I know I sure cater to that! But if it all gets reduced to lowest price then all detectors can be sold out of one huge warehouse in Kansas via the Internet. White's is betting on their strong dealer network and trying to insure it stays intact.

The fact is I will do about $20 million in sales this year as the countries largest Ski-Doo dealer and Alaska's largest marines dealer. I have a 30 year history locally selling mining gear and detectors and so we are big in that, but it is a pittance in my overall sales. I offer pricing competitive with the net but try and hold my margins.

But if "evil Steve" were let loose I could be a force to reckon with on the net. I can afford to subsidize my sales with my main business. So I could in theory. If allowed, just choose to sell machines via the Internet at cost plus $20 for a few years. I would simply kill off most of the competition. Local dealers everywhere would hate me. of course, given the same rules Kellyco would be let loose, and it would be a bloody battle. They'd be fighting for survival. I'd be impossible to beat since I'd not have to profit. But as a businessman I have to use my money responsibly, and engaging in such a battle would be silly unless I could win in short order. I'd probably start raising my prices before Kellyco came even close to dying. I'd probably even reflect on how stupid it was to try and corner the detector market. But in the meantime my crazed decision and the resulting battle with Kellyco would kill off most of the dealers in this country.

White's is fighting that kind of scenario, but we may be heading there anyway. Walmart is out there selling detectors, but so far having little impact on me since Bounty Hunter is not exactly perceived as being the quality brand. Just the fact that Walmart sells them feeds that perception. But eventually one of the big boys may go to them, like Garrett maybe? And I keep waiting for somebody to do the Dell business model. What if Fisher just gave up on dealers and sold factory direct, with dealer cost being the new retail price? It might be their road to salvation.

Fun discussion, Ralph, as I think about this stuff a lot as a businessman. So far White's strategy seems to work as I get beat up less over pricing by people looking for White's. A Minelab customer will ask why I am not throwing in the Ace hardware store like Kellyco. So I end up selling fewer Minelabs, which means I stock less of them, and in effect I end up being mostly a White's dealer. Not because that is what I've chosen, but because White's has chosen to send business my way.

I really like selling detectors as it immerses me in them every day, but I sure am thankful I do not depend on them for a living. It puts it all in perspective and keeps it all kind of philosophical in a way. if I keep selling them, fine, if not, oh well!

Steve Herschbach

 

[Cody]

Good post Steve. Not many people want to hear this but I had a similar discussion with rep for a manufacture. The bottom line is the the bottom line. I have always been pretty much, Minelab, Fisher, Whites, and in the past included a few other. Whites has a great TV and promotion program and makes a good product with a great assortment of accessories and enough models to fill the gaps.

I thought your post on the M6 was very good. I am really not interested in a repackaged MXT scaled down. I wonder why they did not add tones to the MXT and go with an MXT11 instead of an M6? What is your thinking on this?

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi Cody,

Your guess is as good as mine. My theory is simple marketing. The discontinued the Pro series and so had a "price gap" to fill betwen the Prizm V and MXT. I hang my detectors on the wall with a unit at about every $100 bucks. Sometimes people ask me what to get and I tell them "you know, they all work. Pick a budget you can live with and then buy one at that price and go use it."

We here on the net are not the average buyer. The average buyer decides they want a unit, use it a few times, then it lives in a closet forever. Only a few get hooked and stick with the hobby over time... to become poor souls like us with nothing better to do than talk about detectors on the internet!

So on my wall will be Prizm V, M6, and MXT, each $100 bucks apart. The X-Terra 50 could in theory occupy that spot on my wall also but I'll go whichever way the wind blows in that regard. So far the units are so new you really only hear about them on the net or from the "in" crowd. Normal purchasers have not heard of them yet.

I'm sure White's is also working on a DFX 2 or MXT 2. Everyone is always working on stuff. Much never sees the light of day. The DFX has been around awhile and so marketing demands it get a facelift fairly soon. Maybe this coming year?

Steve Herschbach

 

[Ralph Bryant]

I hope my last didn't come across as a jab toward you or White's, as that was really not the intention. And I have nothing whatsoever against White's detectors, and think they are excellent machines for the most part, with construction that rivals the best. I agree too that the "performance" issue really boils down to who, where, and under what conditions. The phrase "best machine" (in whatever aspect) has really been run into the ground over the years, not just by the users, but by the promoters and manufacturers. We're dealing with the analogy of the "fastest car" when the comparisons involve one traveling downhill, one uphill, and the other on a flat stretch. Even if the much desired "scientific testing" ever evolved into reality, all of the variables would remain.

So, in that aspect, the best we can do is just what you, I, and others have been advocating for years......try 'em out in your own backyard, and decide for yourself. It's hard to do that over the internet.......

Ralph

 

[Cody]

Cabin fever Ralph, it starts about this time each year. I almost started playing with my detector yesterday with target on the floor. I have wondered were I would end up and as Steve has found out...lost on the net........just a dried up old fart talking about detectors. It is kind of like the spirit Zone......but the detector net zone instead. I guess I will ride this ghost train forever looking for a great park full of coins and my detector will always have dead batteries.

 

[steve herschbach]

I really have no idea what you are talking about! Jabs? Me? White's?

I perceived nothing of the sort and thought you had a great question and so I just blabbed on in return. My wife says I like to pontificate. Basically just my thoughts wandering over my morning cup of coffee. Did I come across as defensive? If so, it is I that apologizes!!

Steve Herschbach

 

[Ralph Bryant]

It's just that sometimes I read back over my own comments and even sound a little "crass" to myself sometimes, so didn't want to sound that way. Sometimes I will write something while laughing my a$$ off, tongue in cheek, but that's a little hard to project through the written word. You know how that is.

Thanks for all the great posts on the M6. My interest in trying another high-end White's machine seems to wax and wane at times, but I do like their construction......tough as nails.

Ralph

 

[Ralph Bryant]

Rod Serling, standing back in the shadows, puffing on a half-burnt cigarette........

"You're about to enter another dimension, not of sight, but of mind. You're about to take a journey through space and time, into the utmost depths of the imagination. You're about to enter......."The Detector Zone".

<center>[attachment 12903 rod_serling.jpg]</center>

dooDOOdoodoo.....dooDOOdoodoo.....dooDOOdoodoo......dooDOOdoodoo................ (as someone hurls a Bounty Hunter off into the distant stars).

Cabin Fever......definately !

Ralph

 

[Rick(ND)]

Whites detectors are to be sold only in my shop as i am a local dealer. The National dealer will pay more for each and every detector, but can sell mail order. They told me this is why the local dealer get a better price as they are to take the time to work with each and every customer, in other words White is paying you to show your customer how the detector work,answer questions and give the customer a loaner if theirs has to go in for repairs. There is a exception to the rule too, but less then 10% of total sales can be sent though the mail to past customer that have moved or a friend of one of your customers.

Rick

 

[Anonymous]

is that every single dealer I have talked with has said IMPLICITLY that they are not allowed to sell mail order, on penalty of revocation of their dealership. This has pi$$ed off so many dealers that they do not even list WHITES on their site, and refuse to sell by mail, or even quote a price. ALL! This Kellyco matter has nothing to do with Kelly being in business prior to a certain date. It has to do with Kelly's clout and cooking up this idea in the first place to where they are the sole mail order dealer. Remember when MINELAB first came out, and all sales were local, only. Then mysteriously Kellyco becomes the official and ONLY MINELAB mail order dealer. MINELAB lost dealers like crazy. [There is another Maker of detectors that tells their dealers they cannot sell below a certain price.] Then Kelly throws in [besides headphones]a digger, sheath, pinpointer metal probe, electronic pinpointer, maybe an extra searchcoil, books, DVDs, magazines, raincovers, or a zippered bag, and you believe the playing field is still level? Call Kelly and get a price, then ask for a cash price without extras-its the same price. We have laws on these matters, restriction of trade & unfair trade practices, that are there to protect the consumer, not the businessman. They are not torts, and when broken are listed as CRIMES.

 

[Anonymous]

I qualified what I said by designating, "where you live." The results in East Texas can be very different than West Texas. All of the things you mentioned are today, almost standard features,and the qualities of these features are all generally high. Its not like the old days, where your detector would disc. out a tab, and five minutes later the discrimination point had faded and all of a sudden you could pick up nothing at that same setting. And I don't care if a detector is so gaudy that it looks like it came from LIBERACE'S umbrella rack, and has sequins and diamond accents. If it works, I'd paint it O.D. Green. Some detectors may look cutting edge, but have little depth. It's not really a choice, unless you just want to find stuff two or three inches deep.

 

[Anonymous]

Seems that we are in agreement.

 

[Anonymous]

biased talk won't do it !

Now check the minelab forum and ask all the "fieldtester" why they did not mention the weaknesses of the XTerra 50 to the public.

And you don't need 100 hours on the detector to discover the hardware weaknesses of the XTerras. Even i postet the shortcoming of the Xterra they still deny them. A free detector can make blind.

I don't care to much what people buy but they should know the pros AND cons of a detector before they buy.

I knew i had to take a lot of heat for posting the cons of a detector but if my post helped just one guy it was worth it.

HH,
Andy

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi vlad,

White's defines a Full-Service local dealer as one that delivers not less than 90% of the product in person without the aid of a common carrier. That means up to 10% may be delivered through the mail.

Authorized Catalog dealers can deliver more than 10% of the product via a common carrier. Kellyco is an Authorized White's Catalog dealer.

White's retail prices are suggested only, and there are no limits placed on dealer discounting by White's, unlike some other manufacturers.

I've never come even close to delivering 10% of my White's units through the mail. My focus is local sales, and I'd prefer people buy from their own local dealers. But if a person from a town without a dealer calls me I'll sure quote them a price, and mail them a unit. I'm sorry you've run into dealers who will not.

If I'm wrong on any of this I'm sure I'll hear about it from White's!

There is no doubt Kellyco wields a lot of power due to their buying power. I'll not disagree with you but I do have to say that in my 30 years as a White's dealer I've never felt they were unfairly helping Kellyco at my expense as a dealer. Kellyco is simply a smart and competitive company. They buy into package deals when they can and extend them thoughout the year. And they buy up certain accessories cheap and tout them at some pretty high retail savings when you get them free. Like their Swiss Army knife. You seem to think they are obligated to offer you a lower price on the unit if you do not take the freebies, but it is their business and they can choose to not trade their freebies for an extra discount if that is their wish.

Now will you look at that, you've got me defending Kellyco!

Seriously vlad, I appreciate all your posts and am not trying to argue with you. This is just interesting stuff to talk about. I'm really the one that ought to be complaining about Kellyco and the restrictions that manufacturers place on us dealers, as it is a pain sometimes. But I guess after all these years of business I've just gotten used to it.

Steve Herschbach