all metal vs disc

[findit]

maybe i am just looking at it different but what would be the point of the toggle switch on the tejon to quickly switch from am to disc. the way i see it if you were searching in am you plan on digging everything (you are searching FOR, hence the setting all metal), otherwise if you wanted to pick and choose what kind of metal to dig why not just keep it in disc and dig only when it beeps on your setting. not to go on a rant here but i keep reading how guys search in all metal but then switch between the disc modes to see if it is the metal they are looking for. well then why not just keep it in disc and only worry about it if you get a beep. not to offend anyone here just trying to simplify things in my mind. let me know your thoughts on this maybe i am just not seeing something.

 

[Monte]

[quote findit]maybe i am just looking at it different but what would be the point of the toggle switch on the tejon to quickly switch from am to disc. the way i see it if you were searching in am you plan on digging everything (you are searching FOR, hence the setting all metal), otherwise if you wanted to pick and choose what kind of metal to dig why not just keep it in disc and dig only when it beeps on your setting.[/quote] ... One thing that you will find is that, by way of time and experience in the field, a devoted detectorist learns the benefits of ALL operating modes at his/her disposal.

Most of my hunting is done in a true, threshold-based All Metal mode. Do I plan on digging EVERYTHING? No, generally not, although there are times and places where that's the best way to go.

Why not dig ONLY THE BEEPS when in the Disc. mode? Well, I guess it's partly because I (and still a good many like me) are from the "earlier era" when we hunted with TR's and then TR-Discriminators, and then VLF (Ground Balance, Threshold-based, All Metal detectors), then VLF-Discriminators, and finally with enough of the VLF/VLF-Disc. models that ALWAYS had a Threshold reference.

With ANY of the TR-Disc. models you ignored those targets that caused the unit to 'null' or go silent because they were rejected.

With the VLF/TR-Dics. models you benefited from very good depth in the true All Metal search mode (VLF) but the Discriminate mode didn't detect as deeply. You searched in the All Metal (VLF) mode for ease of operation and good depth, then checked the targets in the TR-Disc. mode. You only should have ignored those targets that caused the Threshold audio to null or go silent. You recovered ALL targets that caused a beep because they were above the discriminate setting AND shallow enough to respond. You ALSO DUG ALL target located in All Metal that did not respond in TR-Disc., positive beep or nulling, because that indicated they were too deep for that mode to respond to.

With VLF-Disc. (motion Discriminate) models you have two approaches available. Those that are threshold-based in both the All Metal and Disc. modes, such as White's DFX, XLT, MXT, XL Pro and all of the various 6000, 5900, 4900, and other motion discriminators in that "four-filter" class, and some others. Or those that are "silent search" in the Disc. mode, to include ALL Tesoro motion discriminators, White's Classic series, and many others.

Hypothetical: You arrive at a site that you've never hunted before, but you know you don't like iron nails so you set your Tesoro to reject a common iron nail. Keep in mind that shallower iron or even iron below a desired target can mask that good target from detection .... if the rejection is too high

You search a site for an hour or so, and ONLY recover targets that give a good 'beep'. But a hunting buddy also sets his discrimination to just reject iron nails, and he doesn't cover as much ground as you because he's been moving about to 'check a target' or recovering some 'iffy signals' that you ignored.

That hunting buddy might have been ME, or someone who hunts like I do because perhaps there are NO NAILS at the site? You have too much Disc. in use.

Perhaps there ARE nails at the site, but you don't know where they are, or if they are sparsely scattered or rather abundant! I (or another All Metal hunter) will search in an All metal mode so that I can hear ALL targets, then quickly change modes (refer to other recent posts ) and re-sweep the target with our pre-determined Disc. setting that rejected shallow iron nails. We might get a definite rejected response, but we probably sweep that target from one or two directions just to make sure it is rejected, or to see if a different check of the target might give us a tell-tale 'iffy' response that there could be a masked goodie close by!

And there's one more reason I like to hunt in All Metal. Motion Disc. detectors are sweep speed dependant. Regardless of what some might say or what literature tries to suggest, sweep speed can be very critical. Too fast in bad ground or too fast when in amongst a lot of rejected trash and you will easily loose depth as well as target responsiveness. You need to use a 'proper' and efficient sweep speed. When hunting in a true All Metal mode, however, I can get a little 'sloppier' because it isn't so dependant and a faster sweep allows me to cover ground a little faster yet hear what's in the ground. When I do, I immediately shift modes and check it out in the pre-set rejection Disc. mode.

Finally, for a good motion Disc. mode to produce an audio response the search coil must be swept almost directly over the target. Overlapping is critical, if you don't want to miss many targets. Yet, hunting in a true All Metal mode will let you hear many metal targets if the coil is swept CLOSE to them, even if not directly over them.. This helps take care of coil control concerns, to a degree, and when you sweep close to a target in All Metal and hear a good response or just a hint of a target, you can quickly shift modes and re-direct your sweep over the located target with the coil's center to get the best 'hit' or best performance from the Disc. circuitry.


[quote findit] not to go on a rant here but i keep reading how guys search in all metal but then switch between the disc modes to see if it is the metal they are looking for.[/quote] ... I only switch between an All Metal and a Disc. mode to get audio information about a target. I am not a fan of any dual-discriminate approach and I don't use more than one Disc. mode. No reason to.

What I am looking for is a desirable metal target, coin, token, ring, bullet or button size, and the All Metal mode and Discriminate mode combine to give me a lot of information, as well as let me know if it is rejected by MY desired setting.



[quote findit]well then why not just keep it in disc and only worry about it if you get a beep. not to offend anyone here just trying to simplify things in my mind. let me know your thoughts on this maybe i am just not seeing something.[/quote] ... I do think it's a case of you don't have the experience afield with hunting in both mode. from your posts on this and other forums with Tesoro related performance questions, this one ought to explain what I have been referring to and why I like to hunt in All Metal.

There ARE times when I like to just hunt in a silent-search Disc. mode set to reject iron nails. I never use anything higher than that anyway. But I like to know if I am in an target free environment or one that is target rich, whether good or bad targets.

If you don't understand what I've been trying to explain, then maybe you ought to just hunt the way you have been. Maybe in the future you'll get a model that provides you with the options I have talked about? If you do, try hunting in All Metal and checking in Disc. for a few weeks and then you will be able to determine if this is a technique that you can enjoy using, and if it has any purpose for you.

Monte

 

[saginawian]

A little story as an example . . .

Let's say you are hunting an old home site from 1790. You have heard many stories about silver and large copper coins having been recovered here. Maybe this is your day. You have your main disc set just above foil. You have your alt disc just above tab. Doesn't really matter: you know that you will be digging every good signal anyway. SO you start detecting, and find nothing. You are about ready to give up when you suddenly get a strong signal on your main disc - you are getting excited that it could be a coin. Then you click over and you get REALLY excited b/c it is still beeping and it is possibly a copper or silver coin! Then, while in alt. disc, you thumb the dial up little by little while swinging over the target . . . WOW it's still showing up. Now you are really really excited because it is highly likely to be silver . . . My point - using that disc. is a helluva lotta fun! Even for those of us that dig everything. But there are more important reasons to have that trigger function.

I am by no means an expert with the Tejon, but I can tell you that the trigger is a great feature that I could not do without. It is great. I hunt in all metal only in the woods and for the sole purpose of finding remnants of a long gone old house that I don't know the exact locaiton of. If I get a signal, I will click over to be sure it's ONLY a nail. Once I find a high concentration of metal targets, I add a little disc. (just above iron) and start looking for relics. I don't know anyone personally that hunts in all metal all the time with the Tejon. Most people hunt with the disk just above iron. The trigger on the Tejon is HIGHLY useful. The all metal mode that is activated by the trigger is used for pinpointing. The obvious benefit is that you can quickly pinpoint without fumbling with buttons. More importantly, you can use the all metal mode to "focus in on" iffy, choppy signals. Basically if you get a signal that almost sounds good, but not quite - you can quicly click the lever and it sould ring in loud and clear. That is where you find the deepest coins, with slightly broken signals that you would normally skip over - you can use that all metal mode to give you that extra concentrated power to bring it in loud and clear. The trigger on the Tejon is a great tool and there are many little tricks of the trade that I'm still learning about how to use it. The possibilties are endless on how you can manipulate the dual disc. to your benefit for the purpose of focusing in on certain types of targets. The trigger is the key to it.


You should read the field test on the Tesoro website for the Tejon - there is a great example of how to use the trigger to hunt better.


Hope this is on point and helps a bit,

Ian

 

[saginawian]

great response Monte

 

[tab-nabit]

Sometimes in a new relic possible area, start in AM and get an idea, use low discriminate as necessary afterwards.
Sometimes I'll use anything in AM, like square nails, junk, just to lead into a area with target possibilities.

 

[tab-nabit]

You sure lay out some information and your posts/response are always an interesting read.

 

[Monte]

looking for a site that might have had human activity, such as in a field or woods. Once located I can choose my search mode based upon conditions.

Also, when I am hunting some of the known ghost towns I enjoy I hunt in silent-search motion Disc. set to just reject iron nails WHILE I AM IN THE TRASHIER AREA, but when I work out to the fringe area and beyond, I always go to All Metal because I want to find ANY sign of prior human use, to include iron nails and the like. One old townsite had reports of their baseball team, but we've yet to find just where those games were held, and it's by using All Metal that we'll have our best chance of success. In these applications I prefer a conventional All Metal search, so the Bandido's, Eldorado, Tej

 

[markg]

You didn't mention the Vaquero...

Is there a difference between the all metal of the Vaquero and the Tejon?

 

[findit]

thanks for the lesson well put, and yes i do not have the experience yet but with help from people on here such as yourself and others it makes it much more easier to learn and not so frustrating. after all we all do this because we enjoy it and to have fun. now like mark said is there a difference in the all metal of the vaquero and tejon. i know you answered this by saying the vaquero lacks the ability of easily switching over, but are you saying you can still hunt the same way only it will take a little longer to do it with the vaquero?in other words can you just put it in am then turn the knob to disc to check then turn it back into am? if you put both the tejon and the vaquero in all metal and leave it, there is no difference other than depth correct?

 

[findit]

i just realized you already answered the question. thanks for you patience

 

[RobRcer]

Well heres some of what i do...

With my Cibola i keep disc all the way down, when i get a target, i turn disc up until i see when it goes out, and i listen to it to see if it has a clear signal, or a broken one. If its broken, it may be masking a good target. I allways hunt now with Cibola supertuned. When u have it supertuned the pinpoint doesnt work becuz threshold is all the way up, but if u get a deep target supertuned, then turn threshold back down to pinpoint it, sometimes it is to deep to pick up, and i have to supertune it again to refind the target, and dig, and dig, and dig... lol

With my Minelab Excalibur, i keep disc setting all the way down, and when i get iffy targets, i double check them, i have found jewelry with iron right next to it, the tone sounds really crappy, but it is definitely worth digging those tones. HH yall!!

Robert

 

[markg]

I GOT TO SAY, MONTE IS ONE OF THE SMARTEST DETECTORIST I'VE EVER KNOWN (NOT PERSONAL). I SURE WISH YOU WOULD HURRY UP AND FINISH THE BOOK, SO I CAN BUY ONE.

 

[tabdog]

n/t

 

[markg]

While hunting today I met an old man using a cheap metal detector (famous trails brand).
I thing he had this thing in some kind of am mode, but I'm not sure.
I asked him how long he had been thunting and he said about 16 years.
Well as the story goes we checked each other for the next hour or so on the various signals we got.
Most of the time he said he knew when it was a coin before he would dig.
So I used my Vaquero to verify his finding before he would dig. And to my surprise he was very accurate. So I have become a believer in running in am then checking in disc mode before digging.

Just remembering your post Monte
"Finally, for a good motion Disc. mode to produce an audio response the search coil must be swept almost directly over the target. Overlapping is critical, if you don't want to miss many targets. Yet, hunting in a true All Metal mode will let you hear many metal targets if the coil is swept CLOSE to them, even if not directly over them.. This helps take care of coil control concerns, to a degree, and when you sweep close to a target in All Metal and hear a good response or just a hint of a target, you can quickly shift modes and re-direct your sweep over the located target with the coil's center to get the best 'hit' or best performance from the Disc. circuitry."

Does that mean using my Vaquero with the pin point button pushed in or the disc button clicked over to am?

 

[mrburnett]

Monte,


What is the difference between Slow Auto-Tune All Metal on the Tejon and Threshold-based All Metal on the Vaquero?


Thanks

Mike

 

[markg]

[quote mrburnett]Monte,


What is the difference between Slow Auto-Tune All Metal on the Tejon and Threshold-based All Metal on the Vaquero?


Thanks

Mike[/quote]

Yes and I would like to know if the pinpoint on the Vaquero is the same as clicking the disc knob to all metal.

 

[markg]

Can this am mode be accomplished by pushing the pinpoint button on the Vaquero?


And there's one more reason I like to hunt in All Metal. Motion Disc. detectors are sweep speed dependant. Regardless of what some might say or what literature tries to suggest, sweep speed can be very critical. Too fast in bad ground or too fast when in amongst a lot of rejected trash and you will easily loose depth as well as target responsiveness. You need to use a 'proper' and efficient sweep speed. When hunting in a true All Metal mode, however, I can get a little 'sloppier' because it isn't so dependant and a faster sweep allows me to cover ground a little faster yet hear what's in the ground. When I do, I immediately shift modes and check it out in the pre-set rejection Disc. mode.

 

[Monte]

[quote mrburnett]Monte,
What is the difference between Slow Auto-Tune All Metal on the Tejon and Threshold-based All Metal on the Vaquero?
Thanks, Mike[/quote]It's beginning to seem like a bulk of the hobbyists, at least posting on these forums, are newer to the hobby and just haven't had the pleasure of experiencing all the 'stages' we're gone through in metal detector design and progression.


Okay, let me explain it, again for some newer readers, how manufacturer's have added to all the misunderstanding that exists.

1.. A little over 30 years ago we got our first detector models with ground cancelling circuitry. Thus, these models could be adjusted to ignore the ground and respond to all metals, ferrous and non-ferrous. Thus, "All Metal" detection came about.

2.. Within a year or two after that, George Payne (who patented the first GB models) gave us Discrimination AND Ground Balance functioning at the same time. However, to accomplish the task electronically of processing both a ground signal and target signal then passing along only the target signal, these models required search coil motion. That's how the term "Motion Discrimination" came about. To function, the search coil has to be in motion.

3.. All of these early-day models required a Threshold adjustment in order to efficiently adjust the GB, to search in the All Metal (GB'ed) mode, and most motion Disc. modes were also threshold-based.

4.. The first motion discriminators required an almost rocket speed whipping motion, but over a few years they did manage to slow it down to what was referred to as a moderate sweep speed, most all still threshold based.

5.. In 1982 Fisher introduced the 1260-X which brought us the first popular slow-motion discriminator, but it was followed by Tesoro in July of 1983 with their Inca. The Inca had a 'conventional' Threshold-Based All Metal mode and a silent-search, slow-motion, quick-response motion Discriminate mode. This really was the first GOOD working silent-search versatile detector.

NOTE: Going back to the early 1970's, manufacturers helped take care of the annoyance of manually retuning a TR or TR-Disc. model by incorporating an auto-tune circuit. Initially most had a toggle or button to activate that "retuned" the Threshold setting, but when they went with an 'auto-tune' circuit that allowed the detector's circuitry to automatically retune (auto-tune) the set Threshold setting. Some models have had a fast auto-retune rate and some a slower auto-retune rate.

Some models, such as the 'original' Bandido had, what [big]I[/big] consider a 'functional' auto-tune speed in the All Metal mode. The Bandido II, Bandido

 

[Monte]

"When hunting in a true All Metal mode, however, I can get a little 'sloppier' because it isn't so dependant and a faster sweep allows me to cover ground a little faster yet hear what's in the ground. When I do, I immediately shift modes and check it out in the pre-set rejection Disc. mode." Note that it says ... 'immediately shift modes and check in the pre-set rejection Disc. mode."



"Can this am mode be accomplished by pushing the pinpoint button on the Vaquero?" ...No. You can search in an All Metal mode, but you can't quickly change modes to a Discriminate mode that you're already pre-set for the rejection you want.

Yes, you can click out of All Metal, but then you have to adjust the Disc. level. The danger here is that you can adjust too low or too high because most people are adjusting the Disc. level while sweeping the coil and can overshoot the proper setting. The detector will respond a little differently when the Disc. level is being changed because this is changing the reference information the detector needs to properly reject a target.

Don't get me wrong, the Vaquero is a good detector. It just isn't 'perfect' for all of us or provide features many of us would like to see.

Monte

 

[markg]

What I was thinking...
On my Vaquero:
GB as usual
Turn disc knob to disc mode
Set to desired disc setting
Push and hold pinpoint button and begin sweeping. Then when target is found release button and check in disc mode.


[quote Monte]"When hunting in a true All Metal mode, however, I can get a little 'sloppier' because it isn't so dependant and a faster sweep allows me to cover ground a little faster yet hear what's in the ground. When I do, I immediately shift modes and check it out in the pre-set rejection Disc. mode." Note that it says ... 'immediately shift modes and check in the pre-set rejection Disc. mode."



"Can this am mode be accomplished by pushing the pinpoint button on the Vaquero?" ...No. You can search in an All Metal mode, but you can't quickly change modes to a Discriminate mode that you're already pre-set for the rejection you want.

Yes, you can click out of All Metal, but then you have to adjust the Disc. level. The danger here is that you can adjust too low or too high because most people are adjusting the Disc. level while sweeping the coil and can overshoot the proper setting. The detector will respond a little differently when the Disc. level is being changed because this is changing the reference information the detector needs to properly reject a target.

Don't get me wrong, the Vaquero is a good detector. It just isn't 'perfect' for all of us or provide features many of us would like to see.

Monte[/quote]