Always felt before the Spring the X-terra will be completely undressed. Is it a good thing ..(sure is) as it gives the insight to prospective buyers..Basically I hunt in Disc. mode and if a threshold is available can be helpful in knowing your ground, getting takers next to junk or picking out the real deepies..I am basically a silver coin hunter and would feel those relic hunters or even those after larger gold nuggets may use the all metal to peak efficiency..I remember Jimmy Sierra certainly a Icon in the hobby basically say threshold may get you a little deeper but if the buzzing bothers you just use silent search. Having said all the above I have used a lot of detectors and the X-terra impresses me and I don't impress easily.CW brings up an interesting point and thanks for the info. In addendum I have to say the CZ is a silent search unit in Disc. and surely ranks with the deepest around. Snow is preventing me from running the X-terra around the block several times for an in depth test but I sure will come the Spring or if we hit a warm spell..Certainly debateable as long as we don't take anything personal as we all have different ways of hunting or for that matter may be a Relic or silver coin hunter which beams a different light on facets..This hobby for me is fun and exercise and certainly no technical Guru so read my post with a grain of salt and make you own opinions..
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Alert to prospective buyers of the X-terra 50....
- Thread starter CWRelichunter
- Start date
CWRelichunter
New member
Your post is the very reason why I wanted to bring this Alert of mine to the forum, and I'm sorry it wasn't posted sooner.
Unfortunately, it seems many others misinterpreted what I was trying to accomplish. Hopefully at least ONE person read my original post and will think twice before ordering a detector that is not what they had perceived it to be.
Thanks again for your response.
J in Va
Unfortunately, it seems many others misinterpreted what I was trying to accomplish. Hopefully at least ONE person read my original post and will think twice before ordering a detector that is not what they had perceived it to be.
Thanks again for your response.
J in Va
The X-Terra CAN be used as a non-motion, all-metal detector. All you have to do is press the pinpoint button. No modifications required. However, you also lose your target ID and audio tones. During the past 6 weeks while using the X-50 IN THE FIELD, there has been more than one occassion where I first hit a target in all-metal mode (or "zero discrimination" as some of you prefer to call it) and I have been unable to confirm or even find that same target in pinpoint mode. Upon X-ing the area in my "zero discrimination mode", and digging the target, I would find the targets at depths exceeding 9 inches. For some reason, the pinpoint mode just wouldn't go as deep as the all-metal mode or either pattern mode.
I doubt that "running in pinpoint mode" is what the Minelab engineers had in mind when they designed VFLEX technology and the ability to swap coils on the X-50, and actually change the operating frequency. But, if it is true all-metal detecting you want, the X-Terra can accomplish this by simply operating it in the pinpoint mode. HH Randy
I doubt that "running in pinpoint mode" is what the Minelab engineers had in mind when they designed VFLEX technology and the ability to swap coils on the X-50, and actually change the operating frequency. But, if it is true all-metal detecting you want, the X-Terra can accomplish this by simply operating it in the pinpoint mode. HH Randy
As I understand it, SAT (self adjusting threshold)helps keep the detector quiet when hunting in areas that have a sudden change or variance in ground mineralization. By allowing the threshold to reset more quickly, it allows the operator to experience a much smoother threshold sound. The GEB/SAT mode of my XL Pro is not a true motion mode. But, you must keep the coil moving to respond to the metal target. When I pull the trigger, my XL Pro switches to GEB/DISC, which allows me to determine target depth.
The Prospecting Mode is the only mode on my MXT that incorporates SAT. While hunting in Prospecting mode, the TRAC feature compensates for common ground minerals and the SAT compensates for the sudden variances in that mineralization. The higher the inconsistencies, the more SAT (faster reset) is required to keep the ground noise quiet. Pulling the trigger in Prospecting mode disables TRAC.
Is that about right? HH Randy
The Prospecting Mode is the only mode on my MXT that incorporates SAT. While hunting in Prospecting mode, the TRAC feature compensates for common ground minerals and the SAT compensates for the sudden variances in that mineralization. The higher the inconsistencies, the more SAT (faster reset) is required to keep the ground noise quiet. Pulling the trigger in Prospecting mode disables TRAC.
Is that about right? HH Randy
Ralph Bryant
New member
Sounds like you have a good grasp of the SAT. Remember though, the SAT speed affects BOTH the background threshold AND the target response retune speed. If your SAT is set faster than absolutely necessary, you have an increasing problem with the machine re-setting to target signals too fast, causing you to completely miss them in the case of very small or very deep targets. The slower you can run your SAT speed, the better overall depth you will get. If your particular detector can have the SAT or "retune" turned completely off, that will give you maximum depth as far as that specific function is concerned.
Ralph
Ralph
Perhaps it's the wording, but I don't understand the following:
"No depth advantage on changing to all metal", "I have owned about 50 detectors and never had one until now that was not deeper in all metal mode", "I feel like I got cheated".
OK, In order to look at this in depth (no pun intended) we have to go back to older machines which seem to have some difficulty in providing "full" depth while discriminating. Now you have a new machine that offers apparently the same depth whether or not it is discriminating, have I got that right?
It should be obvious that ANY silent search machine is going to be doing all of the "thinking" for you, by that I mean the machine stays silent until IT thinks there is something within the parameters of what the programming tells it is a "worthy" target. A machine that offers threshold searching gives you the advantage in that you can hear for yourself tiny variations in the threshold tone or volume, that allows YOU to decide whether or not digging is in order.
So, is your complaint that you failed to recognize the dozens of times it was posted that the machines are silent search, or that this is the first machine you have ever seen that doesn't lose depth while discriminating?
If the latter, frankly, I'd be way more than happy to have a machine that gives adequate depth, but isn't noticibly limited by engaging discrimination.
If the former, again, I think it should be obvious that silent search places the machine out of the realm of ultimate depth due to the fact that we are more likely to hear very subtle and possibly terribly short transients in the threshold tone or volume than the silent search programming parameters throw away BY DESIGN!
For my purposes, I'd like to see modern detectors give us the option of engaging a "direct" output much like the BFO detectors of days gone by. Why offer such a thing? The data is already there in some form, but is being hidden from us as the detector does entirely too much thinking for us 100% of the time. Since the data is there, why not make it available for the people who would find it useful? I would provide the ultimate in depth as we would hear every tiny variation, but if we want to discriminate and search for coins and the other things that always seem to "look" like coins to the processor (tabs etc...) then we simply set a switch.
Please note this discussion (my discussion) has little to do with the Extera, it has more to do with machines we buy and the expectations we have for them. For a relic hunter, I like to think the last thing you would want is a silent search/tone ID/segmented discrimination machine since these features are virtually incompatible with relic hunting.
DAS
"No depth advantage on changing to all metal", "I have owned about 50 detectors and never had one until now that was not deeper in all metal mode", "I feel like I got cheated".
OK, In order to look at this in depth (no pun intended) we have to go back to older machines which seem to have some difficulty in providing "full" depth while discriminating. Now you have a new machine that offers apparently the same depth whether or not it is discriminating, have I got that right?
It should be obvious that ANY silent search machine is going to be doing all of the "thinking" for you, by that I mean the machine stays silent until IT thinks there is something within the parameters of what the programming tells it is a "worthy" target. A machine that offers threshold searching gives you the advantage in that you can hear for yourself tiny variations in the threshold tone or volume, that allows YOU to decide whether or not digging is in order.
So, is your complaint that you failed to recognize the dozens of times it was posted that the machines are silent search, or that this is the first machine you have ever seen that doesn't lose depth while discriminating?
If the latter, frankly, I'd be way more than happy to have a machine that gives adequate depth, but isn't noticibly limited by engaging discrimination.
If the former, again, I think it should be obvious that silent search places the machine out of the realm of ultimate depth due to the fact that we are more likely to hear very subtle and possibly terribly short transients in the threshold tone or volume than the silent search programming parameters throw away BY DESIGN!
For my purposes, I'd like to see modern detectors give us the option of engaging a "direct" output much like the BFO detectors of days gone by. Why offer such a thing? The data is already there in some form, but is being hidden from us as the detector does entirely too much thinking for us 100% of the time. Since the data is there, why not make it available for the people who would find it useful? I would provide the ultimate in depth as we would hear every tiny variation, but if we want to discriminate and search for coins and the other things that always seem to "look" like coins to the processor (tabs etc...) then we simply set a switch.
Please note this discussion (my discussion) has little to do with the Extera, it has more to do with machines we buy and the expectations we have for them. For a relic hunter, I like to think the last thing you would want is a silent search/tone ID/segmented discrimination machine since these features are virtually incompatible with relic hunting.
DAS
Jackpine Savage
Active member
Ralph,
ON the Goldmasters its a balancing act between gain and SAT. Like you said to much SAT and you can lose targets, better to turn the Sensitivity down a bit before going crazy on the SAT. Never really tried the Hyper SAT on the MXT because of the odd sound, but supposedly it works well for those that have trouble discerning good targets from the ground noise using normal SAT.
Tom
ON the Goldmasters its a balancing act between gain and SAT. Like you said to much SAT and you can lose targets, better to turn the Sensitivity down a bit before going crazy on the SAT. Never really tried the Hyper SAT on the MXT because of the odd sound, but supposedly it works well for those that have trouble discerning good targets from the ground noise using normal SAT.
Tom
Just reading through this string again and was wondering if you have had a chance to try your X-Terra out yet? I noticed you were asking:
"Has anyone who currently owns an X-Terra 50 tried hunting in pinpoint mode? Is the depth less then, equal to, or greater than the ZERO-DISC mode? Is it difficult to press the PINPOINT button and hold for extended periods of time? I wonder if the Pinpoint button can be modified to be ON for extended periods of time? Or maybe an ON/OFF toggle switch for pinpointing can be added?"
As a couple folks have responded, you don't need to hold the pinpoint button in for extended periods of time. It is a push once to activate and push again to deactivate set up. So, there will be no reason to modify the detector to keep pinpointing on for extended periods of time. Likewise, you won't have to add an ON/OFF toggle switch. Since you already bought an X-Terra, I suggest you look at page 35 of the owners manual where you will find a good explanation and picture of how this works.
Although the pinpoint mode is an all-metal, non-motion mode, I have not found it to hunt as deeply as the "zero discrimination" modes. In fact, I don't find myself using the pinpoint mode much because the audio response is both tone and volume modulated. If it were to stay the same volume once it is put into pinpoint mode, I could tell more about the target size, shape and maybe even depth. With the audio volume changing to adapt to the surrounding conditions, and the tone changing with the proximity of the expected target, I have found several occassions where I could not detect the item in pinpoint after I had found it in one of the "zero discriminate" modes. I simply pressed the pinpoint button again, put it back in what is called the "all metal" mode, X'd over the target and dug small targets at 9 - 10 inches deep. I know this goes against what many have stated about all metal mode vs discrimination modes. But in the Minelab single frequency 5 kHZ detectors I have, this is not unusual. I swear that my Advantage will all go as deep or deeper in low levels of discrimination as it detects in all metal mode. I never use the all-metal mode on my 5kHz Minelab detectors. I use it on both my X-Terra 30 and my X-Terra 50 because I like to hear the subtle sound changes if I happen to find a coin near a piece of trash. Just my opinion and I suggest that everyone uses what works best for them in their given applications. HH Randy
"Has anyone who currently owns an X-Terra 50 tried hunting in pinpoint mode? Is the depth less then, equal to, or greater than the ZERO-DISC mode? Is it difficult to press the PINPOINT button and hold for extended periods of time? I wonder if the Pinpoint button can be modified to be ON for extended periods of time? Or maybe an ON/OFF toggle switch for pinpointing can be added?"
As a couple folks have responded, you don't need to hold the pinpoint button in for extended periods of time. It is a push once to activate and push again to deactivate set up. So, there will be no reason to modify the detector to keep pinpointing on for extended periods of time. Likewise, you won't have to add an ON/OFF toggle switch. Since you already bought an X-Terra, I suggest you look at page 35 of the owners manual where you will find a good explanation and picture of how this works.
Although the pinpoint mode is an all-metal, non-motion mode, I have not found it to hunt as deeply as the "zero discrimination" modes. In fact, I don't find myself using the pinpoint mode much because the audio response is both tone and volume modulated. If it were to stay the same volume once it is put into pinpoint mode, I could tell more about the target size, shape and maybe even depth. With the audio volume changing to adapt to the surrounding conditions, and the tone changing with the proximity of the expected target, I have found several occassions where I could not detect the item in pinpoint after I had found it in one of the "zero discriminate" modes. I simply pressed the pinpoint button again, put it back in what is called the "all metal" mode, X'd over the target and dug small targets at 9 - 10 inches deep. I know this goes against what many have stated about all metal mode vs discrimination modes. But in the Minelab single frequency 5 kHZ detectors I have, this is not unusual. I swear that my Advantage will all go as deep or deeper in low levels of discrimination as it detects in all metal mode. I never use the all-metal mode on my 5kHz Minelab detectors. I use it on both my X-Terra 30 and my X-Terra 50 because I like to hear the subtle sound changes if I happen to find a coin near a piece of trash. Just my opinion and I suggest that everyone uses what works best for them in their given applications. HH Randy
A
Anonymous
Guest
As to Induction balance, it used to be said all IBs are Transmitter-Receiver, but not all Transmitter Receiver are Induction Balance. What's the difference? Especially in the days of filters and the SPD circuit.
A
Anonymous
Guest
That's why I've always been wary of running any S.A.T. At some depth a target will be tuned out. They have a Trac-inhibit for the groundtrac on the DFX and XLT, to stop the circuit from tracking into the target, but I still all ways preferred to leave auto-trac off and re balance ever so often. If you can lose a target here, imagine the missed targets in S.A.T. in all-metal on the two previously mentioned units? Would Hypersat ever be used for anything except nuggets in the worse conditions?
Ralph Bryant
New member
All detectors are basically "transmit-receive" types in that they transmit a signal and receive a signal or a "change" in the EMF produced by the coil.
Induction balance detectors are constantly transmitting and receiving simultaneously, with the coil balanced to eliminate or compensate for the primary signal that is being transmitted, so that it is seen as a "null" by the receiver. When a metal target distorts the electromagnetic field produced at the coil (producing a phase shift), a variation in the transmitted signal is detected in the receiver circuits. The discrimination circuits are designed to accept or reject certain levels of conductivity according to the phase shift produced by the different types of metal according to their relative conductivity values.
As far as true "transmit and receive" detectors, the one type that comes closest to that description is probably a true pulse induction design, because the actually transmit and receive separate signals at different periods rather than transmitting and receiving at the same time like induction balance machines.
Ralph
Induction balance detectors are constantly transmitting and receiving simultaneously, with the coil balanced to eliminate or compensate for the primary signal that is being transmitted, so that it is seen as a "null" by the receiver. When a metal target distorts the electromagnetic field produced at the coil (producing a phase shift), a variation in the transmitted signal is detected in the receiver circuits. The discrimination circuits are designed to accept or reject certain levels of conductivity according to the phase shift produced by the different types of metal according to their relative conductivity values.
As far as true "transmit and receive" detectors, the one type that comes closest to that description is probably a true pulse induction design, because the actually transmit and receive separate signals at different periods rather than transmitting and receiving at the same time like induction balance machines.
Ralph
The true all metal mode will go deeper than the disc mode but to me that depends on the ground minerals. Where the ground is hot, the all metal will excel in depth compared to the disc mode. But in my area here in Texas where the ground minerals are so low sometimes it's hard to GB your machine, the disc mode detects every object with a much stronger hit than the all metal mode does, this was the case with my shadow X5. Not so with my XTerra, there is virtually no difference in depth in any mode, I would imagine in hot ground, the all metal mode would outperform the disc mode, I say this because if I put a coin under a piece of hematite, the disc mode will not see the coin but the all metal mode will. HH John
Ralph Bryant
New member
A detector with true "full-range" discrimination would be one that accepted everything down to the smallest of iron and ground signal while rejecting everything up to and including pure silver. But most discriminastion circuit designs stop short of discriminasting out "everything", and some "start" somewhere well above the lowest levels on the ferrous side.
Here is a good example:
Tesoro has been known to use 3 main discrimination designs, including what they call 180, 120, and 90 degree discrimination circuits.
180 degree theoretically accepts everything down to the lowest ferrous levels.
120 degree "begins" its discrimination approx. 60 degrees above the absolute low point of 180 degrees on the low side, discriminating all small iron targets below that level.
90 degree "begins" at an even higher level, discriminating most everything on the ferrous side while accepting everything on the non-ferrous side.
You can imagine a half circle from left to right with a straight line drawn vertically through its center, with that line representing 90 degrees and separating ferrous materials to the left and non-ferrous to the right. The complete half circle represents the full 180 degree spectrum from lowest iron or ferrite to pure silver at the opposite side.
Now, if you have a silent-search detector that rejects low-level iron targets at its lowest discrimination setting, you know that you do not have a true "full-range" discrimination (or acceptance) machine.
Ralph
Here is a good example:
Tesoro has been known to use 3 main discrimination designs, including what they call 180, 120, and 90 degree discrimination circuits.
180 degree theoretically accepts everything down to the lowest ferrous levels.
120 degree "begins" its discrimination approx. 60 degrees above the absolute low point of 180 degrees on the low side, discriminating all small iron targets below that level.
90 degree "begins" at an even higher level, discriminating most everything on the ferrous side while accepting everything on the non-ferrous side.
You can imagine a half circle from left to right with a straight line drawn vertically through its center, with that line representing 90 degrees and separating ferrous materials to the left and non-ferrous to the right. The complete half circle represents the full 180 degree spectrum from lowest iron or ferrite to pure silver at the opposite side.
Now, if you have a silent-search detector that rejects low-level iron targets at its lowest discrimination setting, you know that you do not have a true "full-range" discrimination (or acceptance) machine.
Ralph
Ralph Bryant
New member
Here's as good example chart based on the Shadow X-5s discrimination range. Where you see the "manhole cover" at the far right would be better represented by pure silver, since the manhold cover is still "iron", and actually belongs on the ferrous side. The only reason it was placed on the chart as it was, was because such a large iron target produces such a high level of overload that it completely overrides the discrimination circuits.
Ralph
Ralph
I have dug a lot of iron with the The X-Terra running in what Minelab labels the X-Terra's "all-metal" mode. But remember, the X-Terra does not use an adjustable discrimination control. It has target groups, or notches. The X-Terra 50 has 18 target groups or notches. 3 of these notches include ferrous targets and 15 are for non-ferrous materials. You can either accept or reject any or all of the 18 target groups. And, as explained in their user guide, running in the all metal mode will allow you to detect everything from jewelry to rusty nails. I think the confusion surrounding this post was whether or not the X-Terra is a true "all-metal" detector or a "zero discrimination detector". Some believe that today's typical motion detectors (with TID) do not allow for an absolute all metal mode. In those cases, zero discrimination may be used. Some have commented that they believe that a true "all-metal mode" will allow greater depth of detection than a zero discrimination mode. In the case of the X-Terra, to get into the true "all-metal mode", you would have to be in Pinpiont mode, which is non-motion. Having used the X-Terra 50 for about 5 weeks, I will testify that I have found several targets in the "zero discrimination mode" (Minelab's all-metal) that I have not been able to find in the pinpoint mode. I happen to believe that the reason might be the modulated volume and tone used in the pinpoint mode. But the fact remains, for me at my sites, the zero discrimination or X-Terra "all-metal" mode hunts as deep or deeper in some instances) than true all metal, as found in the pinpoint mode. And, I can dig all the iron that I care to. HH Randy
Mike Bearden
Member
Right on Randy, I get what you're saying loud and clear but some folks like to hear that subtle audible threshold change while searching in all metal.... especially relic hunters. I can see where CWRelichunter is coming from, he wanted all metal with a threshold.
On the other hand, how many Sovereign users paid to have the silent search mod done to their detectors ? A bunch of them
I like the X-Terras silent search all metal mode and think it's deep enough. I've yet to find a target with a Explorer that the X-Terra couldnt hit. That day might come but until then I'm satisfied with the X-Terra. Nothing I've used so far will compare to it's overall package.... especially in it's price range.
Just my opinion.
Mike
On the other hand, how many Sovereign users paid to have the silent search mod done to their detectors ? A bunch of them
I like the X-Terras silent search all metal mode and think it's deep enough. I've yet to find a target with a Explorer that the X-Terra couldnt hit. That day might come but until then I'm satisfied with the X-Terra. Nothing I've used so far will compare to it's overall package.... especially in it's price range.
Just my opinion.
Mike
A
Anonymous
Guest
Now that you are on a roll, how does a PRG differ from a modern TID?
As I have learned over the past few years when bragging on my Advantage, some folks get a little "testy" when you start telling about a single frequency detector hunting as deep as the FBS. 
On the serious side, I am one of those that likes a threshold tone in areas that need tight target separation characteristics. I feel I can learn as much by what the detector isn't telling me as what it is telling me. For example, areas that are littered with modern trash. The X-Terra has become my "wide open spaces" detector and it is perfect for that. Lightweight and balanced well enough to swing all day. Covers a lot of ground in a short period of time. Separates targets well and resets between them very quickly. Now, I won't claim it is the detector I would take to a trashy park environment. I have a couple other machines with smaller coils that do that job for me. Maybe, if and when a smaller coil becomes available for the X-50, I will change my mind. But, in the meantime, for modern park hunting, I prefer a little tighter discrimination circuitry and a smaller coil. HH Randy
On the serious side, I am one of those that likes a threshold tone in areas that need tight target separation characteristics. I feel I can learn as much by what the detector isn't telling me as what it is telling me. For example, areas that are littered with modern trash. The X-Terra has become my "wide open spaces" detector and it is perfect for that. Lightweight and balanced well enough to swing all day. Covers a lot of ground in a short period of time. Separates targets well and resets between them very quickly. Now, I won't claim it is the detector I would take to a trashy park environment. I have a couple other machines with smaller coils that do that job for me. Maybe, if and when a smaller coil becomes available for the X-50, I will change my mind. But, in the meantime, for modern park hunting, I prefer a little tighter discrimination circuitry and a smaller coil. HH Randy
Mike Bearden
Member
I love to hunt no matter if it's a multi frequency unit or whatever I have in my hand. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty darn satisfied with what the X-Terra has to offer. For me, there's just isn't much to dislike about it, the weight, depth, battery life, etc. etc.... you've heard it all before
Absolutely ... a small coil will be 1st. on my must have lisf for it. I usually hunt with a small coil in parks/playgrounds too and I'm sure it will make a key ingredient when available.
To tell you the truth though, it's getting harder and harder to reach for one of heavier detectors when I go out detecting these days.
H.H.
Mike
Absolutely ... a small coil will be 1st. on my must have lisf for it. I usually hunt with a small coil in parks/playgrounds too and I'm sure it will make a key ingredient when available.
To tell you the truth though, it's getting harder and harder to reach for one of heavier detectors when I go out detecting these days.
H.H.
Mike