hey everyone just got a used 5.3 coil today and it passes the rx 15 test. now heres where my problem is on the sensitivity probe on rx 10 the signal percent says 40.4 percent noise is 4.7. None of my other coils read this high my 6x10 reads on rx 10 signal is 3.0 percent noise is .07. the 950 on rx 10 reads 12.37 percent and noise is 2.5. I think something may be wrong any ideas??
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5.3 coil
- Thread starter vx3 man
- Start date
The null on this coil is not as good as the rest of your coils. Whites by there instructions says this coil is still good since it doesn't overload at RX15 with TX off. You will probably not be able to run as high an RX with this coil while detecting.
There is no real harm as long as there is sufficient headroom left to detect (doesn't overload). What is sufficient? Realistically, you could probably go as high as 50%, but I would back off to no more than 30-40%.
I always check this when buying a used coil. If anyone was running an M6, MXT, or DFX we wouldn't even be asking about this. With them we would only suspect a problem if they experienced overload.
There is no real harm as long as there is sufficient headroom left to detect (doesn't overload). What is sufficient? Realistically, you could probably go as high as 50%, but I would back off to no more than 30-40%.
I always check this when buying a used coil. If anyone was running an M6, MXT, or DFX we wouldn't even be asking about this. With them we would only suspect a problem if they experienced overload.
My future plan if buying any used V-rated coils is to specifically request the Signal loss percentages. It apparently takes very little heating from being in someone's car trunk on a long hunt to degrade these coils.
Simply passing RX15 test without Boost can't tell you if you are on the edge of a soon to be dead coil. I liked the old days when the benchmark was 15 with boost. To me, the signal loss percentages are telltale about the true condition of a V-rated coil. jm2c. martin
Simply passing RX15 test without Boost can't tell you if you are on the edge of a soon to be dead coil. I liked the old days when the benchmark was 15 with boost. To me, the signal loss percentages are telltale about the true condition of a V-rated coil. jm2c. martin
rustedwoodsman
New member
Howdy VX3man,
I had the same question regarding my (new last fall) 4x6 V rated coil. When compared to my 10DD and 950 (same program and same exact location), the signal % loss on the 4x6 increased significantly. I wrote to White's and was told that this is normal; it's a different coil. Nonetheless, I too was disappointed that the coil would have to be turned down more often than I was used to with the other 2 coils.
For what it's worth, run an "air test" on the coil and see what it means to "turn it down". Again, for what it's worth, an air test on my 4x6, Rx15=7/7.5" (all other settings factory HiPro), Rx12=7", Rx9=7", Rx6=6" and Rx3=5". I try to hang in there at Rx6, and I have never run RX15 on any coil, so if I'm trying to be positive about this, I'm only losing an inch. Rx6 will get me under 30% in ground that ranks as very mineralized.
I'm not trying to create another 4x6 vs 5.3 discussion, I'm just saying that this might be part of the design of the smaller coils?
It's hard to compare apples to apples on this one, but for those of you who love your smaller coil (that's probably everyone who owns one) have you ever compared the signal loss with the sensitivity probe, same exact program and ground, the smaller coil (either one) vs the 10DD or 950? So far, everything seems to say that the signal loss is part of the trade off to get the benefits of the smaller coil. Does anyone get the benefits and no signal loss?
Dave
I had the same question regarding my (new last fall) 4x6 V rated coil. When compared to my 10DD and 950 (same program and same exact location), the signal % loss on the 4x6 increased significantly. I wrote to White's and was told that this is normal; it's a different coil. Nonetheless, I too was disappointed that the coil would have to be turned down more often than I was used to with the other 2 coils.
For what it's worth, run an "air test" on the coil and see what it means to "turn it down". Again, for what it's worth, an air test on my 4x6, Rx15=7/7.5" (all other settings factory HiPro), Rx12=7", Rx9=7", Rx6=6" and Rx3=5". I try to hang in there at Rx6, and I have never run RX15 on any coil, so if I'm trying to be positive about this, I'm only losing an inch. Rx6 will get me under 30% in ground that ranks as very mineralized.
I'm not trying to create another 4x6 vs 5.3 discussion, I'm just saying that this might be part of the design of the smaller coils?
It's hard to compare apples to apples on this one, but for those of you who love your smaller coil (that's probably everyone who owns one) have you ever compared the signal loss with the sensitivity probe, same exact program and ground, the smaller coil (either one) vs the 10DD or 950? So far, everything seems to say that the signal loss is part of the trade off to get the benefits of the smaller coil. Does anyone get the benefits and no signal loss?
Dave
I think im going to have to run somewhere between RX 6,7,8. that keeps signal percent around 27-32. I got this coil on a trade here on the detector accessories classified, don't know if the other owner knew about the null or not. Do you guys think if I bring up the disc sens to say 85 I can squeak a extra inch out with the lower RX?
rustedwoodsman
New member
Howdy again Vx3man,
Since I've only run this test one time, I'm a little hesitant to hang my hat on it, but here goes, Dropping my Discrimination from 90 to 30 only changed my signal loss from 38 to 30. On the other hand, dropping the Rx from 10 to 4 changed the Signal loss (sensitivity probe) from 38% to 14%. If you feel the need to lower the Signal loss: hit the Rx first, and hit it hard if necessary. It will lower the Signal loss, reducing the Dx won't be as effective.
There are a lot of posts out there that say the "power" of the V detectors is in Dx, NOT Rx. As a generalization, I drop an inch of "depth" (air test) for every 10 points that I drop Discrimination.
I'm a newbe at this, but for now, I'd lower the Rx to 6 if that's what it takes to get the Signal loss down to the 30 +/- range, and I'd keep the Dx as high as possible.
Dave
Since I've only run this test one time, I'm a little hesitant to hang my hat on it, but here goes, Dropping my Discrimination from 90 to 30 only changed my signal loss from 38 to 30. On the other hand, dropping the Rx from 10 to 4 changed the Signal loss (sensitivity probe) from 38% to 14%. If you feel the need to lower the Signal loss: hit the Rx first, and hit it hard if necessary. It will lower the Signal loss, reducing the Dx won't be as effective.
There are a lot of posts out there that say the "power" of the V detectors is in Dx, NOT Rx. As a generalization, I drop an inch of "depth" (air test) for every 10 points that I drop Discrimination.
I'm a newbe at this, but for now, I'd lower the Rx to 6 if that's what it takes to get the Signal loss down to the 30 +/- range, and I'd keep the Dx as high as possible.
Dave
OK, first off signal% has no affect on performance unless it overloads. So if I am running my 5.3 with the same settings as you and I'm running 7% signal and you are running a 5.3 at 40% signal neither will show any difference in performance, unless your coil overloads. This would happen first on shallow or large targets.
Since you bought the coil used you don't know if it is losing it's null or if it has always been this way. If the guy you bought it from was using it on a M6, MXT, or DFX it would never overload. The 22.5 KHZ is the frequency having the problem. I've also warned guys not to leave coils in the trunk in hot weather.
It's not in the design of small coils. All my small coils run low signal%.
You will find that raising the discrimination sensitivity will get you more depth then raising the RX, that's where the real depth comes from with the V3i. Unless in a special situation I never run less tha 85 DISC. Where I hunt silver is deep.
OH, I forgot this. If you had a V3i you could lower your RX to 3, 4 or 5. The signal% would drop. Then turn on TX boost to get your depth back you lost by lowering the RX.
Since you bought the coil used you don't know if it is losing it's null or if it has always been this way. If the guy you bought it from was using it on a M6, MXT, or DFX it would never overload. The 22.5 KHZ is the frequency having the problem. I've also warned guys not to leave coils in the trunk in hot weather.
It's not in the design of small coils. All my small coils run low signal%.
You will find that raising the discrimination sensitivity will get you more depth then raising the RX, that's where the real depth comes from with the V3i. Unless in a special situation I never run less tha 85 DISC. Where I hunt silver is deep.
OH, I forgot this. If you had a V3i you could lower your RX to 3, 4 or 5. The signal% would drop. Then turn on TX boost to get your depth back you lost by lowering the RX.
vx3 man said:
Here's my recent experience with low RX. I had a D2 coil that had changed behavior since aquiring it new back in December. When new it ran TX15 with boost. It shortly lost that ability but still maintained RX15 without boost so I wasn't concerned, until recently when I began monitoring the signal loss which was out of bounds. Then one day it overloaded at 15 w/o boost. Next day it was fine again, except for the signal losses being high. I don't know what the signal losses were like new, never checked it back then. The D2 was never a first choice that seemed to work effectively for me so it didn't see much action because I always got better results when I switched back to a different coil size.
So recent history on the diminished D2(it began overloading more often) I lowered the RX to get under 20% sig loss, that RX being 5 for me. I usually ran the Disc sensitivity at 80-87 and gain at 9 to 11, which I now believe was blaring power and smothering good target signals. So I began running RX5, Disc at 93-95 and I began having good success using the D2, better than I ever remembered in using D2 coils over 3 years.
Yes, I am a believer now in the effectiveness of running high DX in the 90s and low gain. The replacement D2 I got Monday has stellar, low signal losses and I am anxious to get out with it to see if running gain at say 7-9 with the higher Disc settings in the 90s will maintain stability without a lot of falsing. The fact is that even the weak D2 worked really well at RX5.
I'm not saying that getting the signal losses down below 20% was the detrimental factor. After following this thread, I believe that getting the ability to run higher discrimination values in the 90s was very likely the key. Maintaining low signal loss was likely an odd procedure that got me down to low gain and high disc values. I am still gonna be bound to using signal loss as a benchmark for a while just to see.
I learned a lot from this thread. Might be the turning point for me and the D2 out in the field. martin
It's because the bedding material that the coils are in has to cure. In some cases,this curing can continue over a peiod of time.This holds the coils in relationship to each other. For various reasons heat, jarring etc. the coils can move out of alignment. This affects the null. Also noisy coils can be caused by the loss of the shield connection.
rustedwoodsman
New member
I guess I need to reopen my post at the White's forum, and ask why my high signal% coil is "normal" and VX3man's needs to be sent in for repairs? Maybe it's a question of a 4x6 vs a 5.3?
No one said it couldn't to be sent in. No one said if you called Whites they wouldn't say send it in. Whites repairs many things they don't have to.
Fact: If it doesn't overload at RX15 with boost off Whites states it's a good coil.
Fact: If you don't get overloading at the RX you hunt at, a coil with a lower signal% won't give you more performance.
It makes a difference whether it has always been the way it is or if is getting worse. The VX3 is reported in the manual to overload at 60%.
Let me give you a link to the same post over there
http://forums.whiteselectronics.com/showthread.php?68854-Signal-Probe-What-Am-I-Missing
Fact: If it doesn't overload at RX15 with boost off Whites states it's a good coil.
Fact: If you don't get overloading at the RX you hunt at, a coil with a lower signal% won't give you more performance.
It makes a difference whether it has always been the way it is or if is getting worse. The VX3 is reported in the manual to overload at 60%.
Let me give you a link to the same post over there
http://forums.whiteselectronics.com/showthread.php?68854-Signal-Probe-What-Am-I-Missing
rustedwoodsman said:
After thinking about this for a while what you are seeing makes sense.
If you look at the diagram in Carl's Advanced guide on pg 5-1 the Rx Gain (Pre-amp) is amplifying any signal to noise ratio as it comes from the coil where as the Discrimination Sens. in way down the processing chain. You are basically pre-amping the imbalance or noise prior to processing the data.
