WHY?.........

[Rex123]

Factory pre-set programs

Coins v Relic

Both in pattern 2 as regards discrimination

Here's the scenario, been out this morning and was using the coins preset in screen 2 as I have done for a while and noticed a lot of jumpy signals, ranging from bottom right of screen to ..well anywhere else it fancied!.
on switching to relic mode i noticed that all the jumpy signals stopped the machine settled down and all iron gave a good low grunt and high numbers.

So thinking it needed a reset I rebooted it back to "factory preset" NOT that i had changed anything. Put it in relic and the next signal was iron, low grunt etc, so out of curiosity I switched back to coin and it was all over the place again, it was almost as if it couldn't lock on, tried noise cancel made no difference, and ground balance is off, any ideas?

I did find non ferrous in both modes it was as if the coin mode was struggling with iron recognition

 

[Digger]

Factory pre-set programs

Coins v Relic
Both in pattern 2 as regards discrimination
Here's the scenario, been out this morning and was using the coins preset in screen 2 as I have done for a while and noticed a lot of jumpy signals, ranging from bottom right of screen to ..well anywhere else it fancied!.
on switching to relic mode i noticed that all the jumpy signals stopped the machine settled down and all iron gave a good low grunt and high numbers.

So thinking it needed a reset I rebooted it back to "factory preset" NOT that i had changed anything. Put it in relic and the next signal was iron, low grunt etc, so out of curiosity I switched back to coin and it was all over the place again, it was almost as if it couldn't lock on, tried noise cancel made no difference, and ground balance is off, any ideas?

I did find non ferrous in both modes it was as if the coin mode was struggling with iron recognition

There are quite a few differences between Coin mode and Relic mode, as far as factory default settings are concerned. In Coin mode, you're listening for 50 CO tones. In Relic Mode, you're listening to 35 FE tones. Coin Mode has Normal Response and Relic Mode is preset at Smooth. Recovery Fast and Deep are both OFF on Coin Mode, and both ON in Relic Mode.

[attachment 335047 ctxpresets.jpg]

 

[Rex123]

Factory pre-set programs

Coins v Relic
Both in pattern 2 as regards discrimination
Here's the scenario, been out this morning and was using the coins preset in screen 2 as I have done for a while and noticed a lot of jumpy signals, ranging from bottom right of screen to ..well anywhere else it fancied!.
on switching to relic mode i noticed that all the jumpy signals stopped the machine settled down and all iron gave a good low grunt and high numbers.

So thinking it needed a reset I rebooted it back to "factory preset" NOT that i had changed anything. Put it in relic and the next signal was iron, low grunt etc, so out of curiosity I switched back to coin and it was all over the place again, it was almost as if it couldn't lock on, tried noise cancel made no difference, and ground balance is off, any ideas?

I did find non ferrous in both modes it was as if the coin mode was struggling with iron recognition

There are quite a few differences between Coin mode and Relic mode, as far as factory default settings are concerned. In Coin mode, you're listening for 50 CO tones. In Relic Mode, you're listening to 35 FE tones. Coin Mode has Normal Response and Relic Mode is preset at Smooth. Recovery Fast and Deep are both OFF on Coin Mode, and both ON in Relic Mode.

[attachment 335047 ctxpresets.jpg]

Thanks but would that be enough for the coin mode not to lock on to what was a firm signal in relic?

 

[IDXMonster]

I'll hazard a guess. And I said "hazard" because that's what it'll likely be if you follow any of MY advice...
I've found the same thing between different modes,to a lesser extent. I don't use Relic,because it's not what I do. From what I understand the CTX is trying to send all conductive targets toward the 12 line. Depending on the type of iron and size,in Coin it's trying to send iron to the 12 line and it can't. That appears to be why when there's iron around and you're hunting conductive targets,it's best to use Combined. It seems to be perfectly happy when there is a provision for it to send the signal somewhere appropriate. My Combined program is a modified Coin mode,so the processing used in the Coin mode CAN work well in an environment such as yours,as long as the Tone ID profile is set to Combined,instead of 35 Tone or something else.
I don't pretend to know how it works,I can just make assumptions based on experience,of which I have a very limited amount. Digger is the guy who will have the clear cut answer,if one exists...

 

[CCadrin]

Here is my understanding. Any experts out there please chime in and correct my assumptions.

The grid Digger provided above has the Fast and Deep options on (same as mine mode on my Xchange software), therefore the faint or erratic sounds the 'Coin' mode is having are being amplified in 'Relic' mode. The tone setting of 50 CO or 35 FE has nothing to do an erratic target. Your tone will be slightly different but audible and consistent. Also, the Pitch hold under Normal setting has threshold to sound to silence to back to threshold. In Smooth the sound goes from threshold to sound back to threshold according to Andy Sabisch book.

As for the 12 line, the only target separation the tries to push iron to the 12 line is Ferrous-Coin.

 

[Digger]

Note that Coin Mode Pattern 2 has FE Line 35 rejected. Relic Mode Pattern 2 has all targets accepted (all metal). If the iron you were trying to get a solid signal on was bouncing around the FE35 line in Pattern 2 of your Relic Mode, it would be nulling out any audio tone on FE line 35 targets when using Pattern 2 in the Coin Mode.

In addition, Factory default settings in the Coin Mode are set to provide an audible signal on conductive type targets. Whereas the Relic Mode is set to provide an audible tone on ferrous type targets. Even though the FBS detectors are set up to provide two dimensional discrimination, allowing targets to be discriminated by both ferrous and conductive properties simultaneously, the Tone ID Profile provides which audio tones you want to hear. (50 CO vs. 35 FE in this case) If you've coin hunted with typical VLF detectors, (those with programming to provide an audio tone based on a target's conductive properties) you know that deeply buried iron can give a "false signal" as you pass your coil over the outer perimeter of a ferrous target. Especially if you are sweeping too fast or lift the coil near the target (like at the end of a sweep). Even though the iron is basically ferrous, it does have conductive properties. The default settings in the Coin Mode on the CTX is very similar in that it is set to provide an audio response based on the conductive properties of the target.

Other possible contributing factors.......running in Normal Response with the Coin Mode instructs the detector to provide short responses to targets. The intent of this is to allow the CTX to better identify the differences between the target and the ground. The downside is that the short sounding "beep" can be masked in areas that are cluttered with metallic objects. Especially if you have levels of discrimination set as reject. When you switch to Relic Mode, the audio response was switched to Smooth, providing a more continuous audio response, with filtering to allow for minimal variation in pitch. When using Smooth or Long audio, I really slow down the sweep of my coil so I can hear the subtle changes as the coil passes over multiple targets. Using Fast ON in Relic Mode also allows the CTX to react more quickly to individual targets. I like to use Fast ON in areas with lots of targets. With Fast OFF in the Coin Mode, those targets close together (or of mixed CO/FE values) will blend together more easily, creating an unstable TID or mixed audio response. A combination of these settings, combined with your sweep speed, soil conditions and the metallic composition of the target in question could all be contributing to the difficulties you were having. JMHO HH Randy

 

[Digger]

If he is comparing the audio response of a target between default Pattern 2 of the Coin Mode to default Pattern 2 of the Relic Mode, we must remember that Pattern 2 of the Coin Mode rejects the audio response for targets with a FE value of 35. Pattern 2 of the Relic Mode accepts all targets. With that in mind, default Coin Mode Pattern 2 will lead to inconsistent and erratic audio responses on highly ferrous targets.

 

[IDXMonster]

Thank you Randy for the involved description of how a lot of this works. This is why it's sometimes difficult to just waltz into a place,choose your "go to" settings and expect to have great success. There are so many variables with types of ground,types of targets,environmental anomalies,etc.....it's no wonder we all go back to the same places and find more targets,with how problematic the big picture can be. FANTASTIC analysis of the operation of the CTX,as usual!

 

[Digger]

Thanks for the kind words. I agree with your comment regarding "go to" settings. I have a few that I have developed for specific sites that I hunt. But just because they work well for me in the sites I hunt, that doesn't mean they'll be the best setting for others. Back when we started this forum, "what are the best programs" was probably the topic that got the most attention. In the early days of the CTX, I worked with Evan (Gone Hunting) to help him develop some settings for the places he was detecting. When we hit a couple good combinations, he posted the settings on various forums. Within a few days, people were asking why they weren't getting the same results when they used the Gone Hunting settings. As many of us have figured out, and I am sure Evan would agree, there just isn't a "one size fits all" with the CTX. HH Randy