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why some gold rings can be hard to find--NICKLE

I,v had some talks whith my frend mike , and he is amazed at how diffrent gold rings can be all over the place whith VDI numbers and on the discrimination so ive done some research========================================================================================= PURE GOLD has an electrical conductivity of 77 thats very high .==== But gold is soft pure gold is 24 carat 18 caret is 75 % gold BUT the rest 25% is alloy and if you areat 14 caretyou have 58.3% gold and the rest is alloy and 10 caret is only 33.33% gold other metals used as alloys can drasticly lower the electrical conductivity of gold . NICKLE beingthe worst in the 1920s they started using nickle to make white golds because thear are two metals that have color gold and copper all other metals are eather white or gray so they started using nickle to turn the gold white befor this platinum was used but it was to expensive other alloys that are used in gold are copper, silver , zinc, but lets look at nickle remember pure gold is 77 on the IACS scale now lets add and allowy of 25% silver and 1.8 nickle and the conductivity drops -- plumitts to 14 we nkow copper has a high conductivity of 101 but when 75% copper is alloyed whith 25% nickle the conductivity drops 4.6 now think of your disc dial first iron which has a conductivity of 14-15 then it moves to foil then to nickle then to a tab and then to a zinc penny ect depending on the carret and alloy used in the ring they can be all over the place some are right down thear whith foil and some that have 10% zinc in them can be up thear whith the zinc penny and thats why white gold is the worst offender a gold ring alloyed whith 14% copper and 8.5 platnum and 4% silver and 1% zinc only has a conductivity of 11.5 even tho you have 72% gold in the ring now the theory is that the lower your frequincy the better your detector is at finding the higher conductivity targets like gold silver copper and the higher your frequince the better it is at finding lower conductivity targets ..BUT what we have is called VLF we are on the lower end of frequencey because it goes from 1 to 100 so by therory a tejan isint much better than a 3 khz machine but i guess a tejan would do better at finding gold rings and nickles than the umax but it cant be much of a diff thats why i often hunt whith the compadre in all metal finis
 
...Very interesting Gunnar. I like it. I've done a little rearranging and added a few comments of my own, here and there, where assumptions were made.
Thanks for your efforts. I hope this starts a serious discusson of this topic.

"I've had some talks whith my frend Mike, and he is amazed at how different gold rings can be all over the place with VDI numbers and on the discrimination. So I've done some research ===

PURE GOLD has an electrical conductivity of 77 thats very high .

This is based on the International Annealed Copper Standard, a measure of electrical conductivity. This scale compares the conductivity of materials to that of annealed copper, which ranks at 100% on the scale. The readings are expressed as "percent IACS." Since some materials are better conductors than copper, readings over 100% are sometimes encountered.
Commercially available pure copper is about 101% in the IACS scale, while silver is closer to 103%.)

...lets look at nickle. Remember pure gold is 77 on the IACS scale.

Now lets add an alloy of 25% silver and 1.8% nickle to gold and the conductivity drops -- plummets actually, to 14%.
We know copper has a high conductivity of 101%, but when 75% copper is alloyed with 25% nickle in the gold, the conductivity drops to 4.6%

This whole concept of alloys intrigues me, as I didnt know there were so many options for alloying. This explains why foreign made gold jewelry can differ from what I think of as "US Standard."

"Now think of your disc dial. First comes iron, which has a conductivity of 14-15%
Then it moves to foil, nickle tabs and then to zinc penny, etc."

I was looking for the complete IACS scale. Do you know where I can find it?

Depending on the carat and alloy used in rings, they can be all over the place. Some are right down with foil and some that have 10% zinc in them can be up there with the zinc penny. Thats why white gold is the worst offender.
A gold ring alloyed with 14% copper and 8.5 platinum and 4% silver and 1% zinc only has a conductivity of 11.5 even though you have 72% gold in the ring.

I'm assuming this is the normal composition of white gold?

Now the theory is that the lower your frequency the better your detector is at finding the higher conductivity targets like gold, silver, copper... while the higher your frequency, the better it is at finding lower conductivity targets.

And that theory generally holds true. But, there is no definitive frequency. We dont search for just one thing - we search for everything.

"George Payne, the master of modern detector design, has repeatedly stated that the best frequencies for detecting all targets were between 10 and 15 khz, meaning frequencies in that range would respond better on targets from low in the conductivity range to high in the conductivity range. He said the optimum frequency for single frequency detectors was 12.5 khz." - JB(MS)

Electrical conductivity as it relates to detecting also has to do with the phase response of a target, once the field signal is coupled into it.
Our VLF detectors can more rightly be called 'RF inductive coupling instruments.' VLF is just shorter, and so easier to stick on a label.

When any signal is inductively coupled to a conductive element, the intitiating RF signal is phase shifted in response to that effect. This is how we determine the identity of the target, as each type of metal couples RF energy in it's own way.

Added to this is the shape and size of a target, since our detectors essentially recognize the surface area of a target. These differeing shapes and sizes also have a dramatic effect on response. This is why pulltabs can be so different, even though they are mostly the same size and all made of nearly pure aluminum.

Since rings are single-turn inductive loops, they couple electrical signals very well. They are also of a large enough size so that they are readily picked up.
However, the wide range of alloy metals which go into them means that, even though they are great inductors, their response will be very closely associated with their composition. So, an alloy compostion that places a ring at 22% IACS will be strongly seen as just that.

Yet, it gets worse when you take alloy gold and finely work it into filligree or scroll/wire jewelry. Then you add the effects of shape and varying surface area to the equation, and it can get ugly - fast!
I found a beautiful 14K Scorpio charm last year, about the size of a nickel. But it hit dead hard on iron/foil range, and even then it was scratchy and popping what with all the little legs and the chain thrown into the mix.

The point of all this is that, if you are not accepting and recovering the range of targets between foil and screwcap, you will miss gold jewelry. You'll dig a lot of nonferrous trash and junk, but hey - that's life. You can't sugar coat that bitter pill.

[size=small]Thanks to JB(MS) for the quoted information.[/size]
 
pulltab said:
that'll make your mind smoke
See what years of training gets me - smoke pouring from my ears!
That and a dollar and I can still get a cup of coffee.
 
Didn't turn up a source of electrical conductivity of various gold alloys but did find information on color and alloys:
http://www.utilisegold.com/jewellery_technology/colours/colour_alloys/

At risk of getting much disagreement ... the various size shape and alloys used for jewelry place conductivity over a wide range of readings on a TID meter. That is why a TID doesn't add anything to the hunt for jewelry with a metal detector other than more weight to swing.
tvr
 
Ya , the shape of a metal item really has a big efect on how it beeps anything round or flat seems to really beep good ive come to the conclusion to find the deeper stuff im just going to hunt in all metal disc works best in the upper 2" range as long as the ring is not below a iron bottle cap
 
I agree with you TVR.

Large rings can be easy to find, even at depth.

Small rings and some larger rings can be more
more tricky. Then small gold jewelry like ear rings
and very small pieces become even more difficult
to detect. They don't have tha round shape which
enhances tha response.

I do agree that alloys do change tha conductivity.
That causes tha responses ta be all over tha place.

That's why notching can always blank out some
jewelry.

A lot of people disagree with that. I don't use notch.

To find gold jewelry you need:

1. mental attitude ta do it, with determination
2. a place where there is a good chance of finding it
3. a machine that can get some depth on small low conductors

In that order

That's my opinion.

HH,

Tabdog
 
"First comes iron, which has a conductivity of 14-15%"

Help me out on this one. I assume if you are discriminating out iron, any target below the 15% will be discriminated out ?


"A gold ring alloyed with 14% copper and 8.5 platinum and 4% silver and 1% zinc only has a conductivity of 11.5 even though you have 72% gold in the ring."

So then, if I am discriminating out iron, the gold ring about would not be hit because it has a conductivity of 11.5 % ??? Not sure what the 11.5 number above represents, but I was assuming that was a percentage.

If the above is true, then to get ALL gold jewelry, you have to hunt in all metal and dig iron. I do know that one some of the gold I found on my TID machines, it bounced between low positive numbers into the negatives. Since I was on the beach, I dug those targets and they turned out to be gold items.

So much for my beach escapades....time to order another PI and dig all the garbage !!!!

Tell you what...I had my Tejon in the dry sand Sunday and it was finding small foil DEEP. But, like everyone here stated, when I got close to the wet sand, not good. Falsing and could not GB. Anyway, I am going to order the small coil for the Tejon and use that set up in the Summer in the dry sand. Gotta dig lots of the foil but that's the only way to get the small rings. With the stock coil Sunday, I am not kidding when I say I picked up small bits of foil and aluminum really deep.

Great posts and an eye-opener.
 
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