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Who's the bullet expert here?:nerd:

R

Rosco Bookbinder

New member
The house where I live sits on pretty much two lots. The large vacant part has never had a house on it. The area was plotted in 1905. I have found that 1895 bank token there, a ring, some change (nothing special), junk metal and an aluminum gamegetter arrow by easton (the whole thing was 4 inches below the turf. I've also found two of the shell casings as in the picture. What the heck gives and what's the deal on the shells?:surrender:
 
"W.R.A. Co." stands for Winchester Repeating Arms Company. The company produced its first weapon in 1866 - the Winchester Model 66 rifle. In 1873, Winchester expanded its operations to include ammunition manufacture and by 1875, it was one of the largest and best known manufacturers of ammunition in the world.
Smokeless powder entered the market in the 1890s and started a new phase in the development of guns and ammunition, although the production of smokeless powder did not eliminate the demand for black powder -- for which this canon was designed.
Perhaps Winchester's most famous patron was the legendary wild west performer "Buffalo Bill." The company widely publicized the fact that its products were the choice of William Cody and his fellow performers. Teddy Roosevelt was another famous Winchester user.
With the outbreak of World War I and the United States' entry in 1917, Winchester was called upon to supply arms and ammunition for the nation. At about that time Winchester was purchased by F.W. Olin of the Western Cartridge Company. John Olin, son of the founder, was a prolific inventor and his name appeared on more than 20 patents, several of which dealt with Super-X, Western Cartridge Company's most widely known product.
In December 1940, the United States Cartridge Company, a subsidiary corporation of the Olin owned companies, began to produce small arms and ammunition for the impending war effort. Its production of .30 and .50 caliber rifle and machine gun ammunition during World War II exceeded the total output of all small arms ammunition plants during World War I! Today the U.S. Repeating Arms Company in New Haven, produces Winchester brand rifles and shotguns under license from the Olin Corporation.
 
...was the forerunner of the renowned .38 Special and was the reason the .45 ACP was invented.

Developed in 1872, the .38 Long Colt, or .38LC, was originally a BP round. When smokeless powder hit the scene in the 1890's, many rounds were converted and the .38LC was included. There was also a .38 Colt, which was just a shorter version and a rimfire .38 which pre-dated that. The .32 caliber offerings come to mind as well.

When we defeated Spain in 1898, and gbought up their colonies (Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines), we purchased an insurrection as part of the deal. The Phillipinos had been rebelling against the Spanish for some time and were not about to become the puppets to another Imperialistic power.

When we went to the Phillipines to "pacify" the good people of that region, fightin broke out in 1899. our service men carried along a nice revolver by Colt, the New Service, chambered in .38 Long Colt, which had been adopted in 1892. A very nice, old-world firearm, it had one problem: It was ineffective, as such things go!

With a pitful (by modern standards) 195 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, it had little effect on crazed jungle tribesmen who went into battle hyped up on drugs! The round nose lead bullet, at a pretty meager 700-800 fps was about like throwing rocks, or so it is reported. An immediate cry went up for something better.

For brief time the Army switched back to the old .45 LC. So it comes as no surprise that the Army, after much trial and error, determined that a bigger bullet at around 850 fps was the real answer and the .45 ACP was born. Put up in an auto loader (our first) it gave you 1-2 more shots of a real thumper, a manstopping caliber par excellence and it remained the US handgun service cartridge for about 80 years.
 
Since we have bullet experts here, I have a question. I was hunting for a ghost town in the forest in September. I was in all metal mode looking for any signs of civilisation. I got hits on a few different shells. I have my guns for each basic type of hunting, but I am not a munitions expert. These are obvious blanks. What were they used for?
That was my finds for the day. Nothing real old. Never hit the mother lode.
 
I appreciate all the great info on the bullets. That part is easily gotten from the web. I'm curious as to where the heck they came from. There is weird stuff in my yard....
 
FL was a hot bed of military training activity in the prewar years and into WWII. So close to the sea and with a tropical climate - well, you get the idea.

The blanks look like 30-06 and were just that, blanks. They were most often employed to train newbies in weapons handling before they got live ammo OR
As grenade launching propellants.

The cripmed top is the giveaway. This allowed for enough pressure to build in the chamber to cycle the action. There were some other uses, like ceremonial shooting, but the other two were more prominent.

BTW, they appear to be unfired so take that into account when handling them. They are most likely about as inert after years of exposure as can be, but dont take a hammer to them or anything like that, okay?

The big domed looking thing above the blanks is a Forster-type shotgun slug, intended for use in smoothbores. Essentially a 7/8-1 ounce ball of lead, these came into being in the 30's and are still in use today.
 

[size=small]I feel like I been gut punched! Let me state for the record that all but the precise dates were from my memory. Several Years as a gun dealer and a lifelong student of things that go bang, has filled my head with a vast array of essentially useless and trivial knowledge. All at your disposal, my friend, so be nice to me.:sadwalk:

As for how stuff gets in your yard. Thats easy: people lose/deposit/drop it there.
Never overlook the almost inestimable number of things that pass through peoples' hands. Bullets being only a small part of them.

Actually, the .38LC lasted well into the 20th century, after the .38 Special (1902) and .357 Magnum (1935) came into being. It is still being loaded by the factories, ASFAIK, due in no small part the many excellent guns still around. AS noted, your cartridge cases were manufactured by Winchester and, well, they left the "Colt" part of the name off.

MORE TRIVIA: This sort of name manipulation went on for a long time, up until lawsuits became a dominant force for change in this country. Here's another example: Ever heard of the .30-30?

Sure everyone has. But, did you know that the venerable .30-30, introduced in 1895, was not called that at its design. It was known as the ".30 Winchester Center Fire, Smokeless," and was the first American cartridge designed for smokeless propellants. But, it was the Marlin company who came up with the name ".30-30."

They (and everyone else) had been chambering guns and loading for the .30 WCF, it's proper designation, since it's inception. But, Marlin didnt want to put the name of their arch rival on the barrels of their rifles, so they came up with their own name for it! So, they, along with the UMC Co. (Union Metallic Cartridge Co.) duplicated the round and called it the .30 Marlin, and eventually the .30-30, which as we all know, stuck fast. It wasnt until 1929 that Winchester caved in and used the by-then more popular .30-30 on their own guns!

But, I digress. It is true with guns that they just dont make them like they used to. Many fine guns were chambered for the .38LC, from civilian revolvers to military and police variants. In fact, then as today, acceptance by the military meant virtual success for any cartridge and/or gun.

Remind me to tell you sometime about the 1842 XF dime I dound in my neighbors yard...[/size]
 
[quote DavHut]
I feel like I been gut punched! Let me state for the record that all but the precise dates were from my memory. Several Years as a gun dealer and a lifelong student of things that go bang, has filled my head with a vast array of essentially useless and trivial knowledge. All at your disposal, my friend, so be nice to me.:sadwalk:[/quote]

I'm sorry Dave I didn't mean it that way. It's just that I did look up a lot about bullets but didn't find what I was actually looking for. They were both a good 4 inches deep in the dirt. Didn't just fall there yesterday and that yard doesn't get anything but mowed. I wonder if they could have been brought in with fill many years ago when the lot was being gotten ready for the house I'm in.
 
I'm sorry Dave I didn't mean it that way.
It's cool bro, me neither :clapping:

Could it have been brought in with fill dirt? YES YES YES.
Always look for fill dirt and investigate it when you see it. Especially if you suspect it came from old ares.
Without question if you KNOW it came from old areas.

One of my favorite colors besides :garrett: green and :tesoro: brown is the dingy orange-yellow of earth moving equipment!

Remember that 1842 dime I mentioned. Thats how it got were I found it...
 
[quote DavHut]
Remember that 1842 dime I mentioned. Thats how it got were I found it...[/quote]

That's what I'm talking about. I found that 1854 Canadian Bank Token in this same yard I'm talking about. How did it get there? Guess it doesn't matter how it got there, it's thanking people like Mr. Garrett for letting me find it...eheheh...
 
David, maybe you could help me I.D. these shells.


The shells are inert. I checked one out with a sledgehammer. Beat it flat. :rofl:
I found about 6 of them in a strait row pushed down in the dirt. The first picture is the blank shells you I.D earlier. It has LC and 8 and a dot then 2.
The second picture the shell has RA then H and 18.
The third picture the shell has WRA CO or OO, it is hard to tell. Then on the bottom it has 25-36 WCF.
The forth picture has the shell has 3 letter. The middle letter looks like an r. I can't read the other two letters. There is a space then the letter c. On the bottom is 43.
Pictures 1 and 4 seem to have the same diameter. Maybe m-1.
Picture 2 has the diameter of my 30-06.
Picture 3 the flared end of the shell is slightly larger then a 30-06. The shaft seems slightly smaller.
The last picture has all 4 shells in order.
 
I found about 6 of them in a strait row pushed down in the dirt. The first picture is the blank shells you I.D earlier. It has LC and 8 and a dot then 2.
LC = Lake City Ordnance plant, Independence MO
8 and 2 are date and lot code information. I dont know all the details of that info. See the end notes.

The second picture the shell has RA then H and 18.
Remington Arms, Hartford CT. This is an odd one, as it's looks to be a cut down .50 cal casing.

The third picture the shell has WRA CO or OO, it is hard to tell. Then on the bottom it has 25-36 WCF.
This an oldie. Winchester Repeating Arms Co. 25-36 Winchester Center Fire rifle round. Unusual.

The fourth picture has the shell has 3 letter. The middle letter looks like an r. I can't read the other two letters. There is a space then the letter c. On the bottom is 43.
Possibly a P, for Peters Cartridge Company, 1943. Looks like a .30 Cal M1 (carbine) round, possibly made for British contract.

Pictures 1 and 4 seem to have the same diameter. Maybe m-1.
The first is 30-06 blank ammo, of fairly recent vintage, near as I can tell. Likely 1968. The fourth is .30 cal Carbine.

Picture 2 has the diameter of my 30-06.
Bigger, by the look of it. The only thing in the US arsenal wth a bigger diamete than the .30-06 is the .50 cal.

Picture 3 the flared end of the shell is slightly larger then a 30-06. The shaft seems slightly smaller.
This is a good example of old bottleneck cartridge design. The new .357 SIG and the .30-30 are other examples. It is a .25-36, which means it was a bullet of .25 cal, with 36 grain of black powder. A nice oddity - try to clean it up and display it.
 
I tried to look all of them up, but I was not getting any where. You saved me a lot of time. Well I don't think I would have ever found them all. I appreciate your expertise. THANK YOU.:cheers:

I will find you a harder one the next time.
 
Yeah I worked for Western Cartridge for a spell. My first wife and me used to run around with Barbara Olin,( her and my wife were school mates and friends ) daughter of Spencer T. Olin. Daddy bought her a new canary yellow Caddy convertible every year. OLin got into chemicals many years ago and formed the Olin Matheson Chemical Corporation.

Western cartridge not only made bullets but everything made of brass and copper - coffee pots, cigarette lighters, toasters, pots and pans, fountain and ball point pens, watch cases, etc., etc.

Bill
 
WAsn't the 25-36 a rifle cartridge for the old Winchester lever actions. They used several odd calibers at different times. I used to have a pistol that was chambered for 32.20. What a tack driver it was.

Bill
 
There were umpteen different cartridges back in the black powder days, far more than anyone could remember. The .25-36 was an odd one and was indeed put up in the Winchester leverguns. Sometime it seemed they made one up just cause they could - heck they still do it!

Rifle calibers often had a third denominaoter in the name, to denote bullet weight.For example, the .30WCF (.30-30), could have been called the .30-30-160, to call out the bullet weight of the original loading


The .32-20 was indeed a tack driver and was renowned for its low recoil. It was also chambered in the Wincehster leverguns to do double duty. has made a comeback in the game of Cowboy Action shooting and has a new competitor in that field, the .32 H&R Magnum. The .32 bore has always had its proponents ans is still a fine game getter.
 
Remember the 30-40 Krag, another oddball cartridge but the gun had the smoothest action ever made, like silk. Back in those days they had a lot of strange combination caliber/loads and a lot of dual purpose loads for your rifle and pistol. Course now you can get rifles in 357 and 44 Mag. Didn't Marlin make a rifle for the 44-40 or was it a 444. Can't remember. My gun savvy ain't what it used to be.

Bill
 
MArlin still makes the .444 Malrin, really a souped up .44 Magnum. The .44-40 has made a minor comeback thanks to Cowboy Action Shooting purists.THe .44Mag and .357 are also both made in leverguns too and Ruger makes the .44 Mag in an auto-loader.

The 30-40 Krag-Jorgensen was the first high power rifle I ever shot, as my dad had one. Very nice as I recal, it was a military version, not sporterizd. The neatest thing about it was the side loading magazine. A real classic and much sought after today.
 
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