"White Noise" Or "Amp" Mode On GT When Doing The Sovereign Wiggle On Deep Fringe Depth Stuff?

[Critterhunter]

Has anybody noticed on the GT when doing the Sovereign wiggle on a super deep target you sometimes hear a slight "click" and then the audio seems to go into a white noise type of amping process like can happen when a stereo amp is being turned on? And then when I stop wiggling I'll hear another "click" sometimes and the audio returns to the less "white noise" type of response.

I've never really heard people mention this and am wondering if perhaps the used GT I bought had a mod done to it or if it's just an extra "boost" type mode that Sovereigns or perhaps just the GT has to try to pull a stronger single out of deep fringe stuff? I don't always hear this amp type "white noise" mode thing kick in and out, but it's there and easy enough for me to hear sometimes. I've asked if others have noticed this in the past but don't remember if anybody noticed the same thing.

I saw this same type of "mode" response on two of my deepest coins I ever dug- an indian in one hole and a v-nickel in another, but at roughly 11 to 11.5" deep using the stock 10" Tornado. The moisture content of this particular site was perfect that day- Not too dry, yet not too wet as I've found overly wet ground can seem to act much like overly dry conditions in how strong a target hits at depth. At the same site in dry conditions my 12x10 is popping wheats more effortlessly than the 10" Tornado in the 8 or 9" realm.

That might not sound too fantastic for other's soil but my soil tends to be mineralized in places, including this site. The 10" Tornado would pop wheats this deep at this site in dry ground but it took more work for me to wiggle up the proper tone/ID from them. I'm anxious to take the 12x10 there on the right day when moisture conditions are perfect again and see how deep it might punch a few old coins at this site, because also by experience in the field and also a few tests run the 12x10 is a good inch to inch and a half deeper than the 10" Tornado with both running the exact same settings and full blast manual sensitivity in a low EMI environment.

I measured this precisely with a ruler in the foreground to judge the raw air depths of both, but as is always said with Minelabs the 10" Tornado got more depth on those coins in the ground than it did in the air test- About 1 to 1 & 1/2" deeper, and those two coins hit so hard and ID'ed so perfect I bet they could have been another inch or two deeper perhaps and I would still have got a good ID/tone out of them. Almost gave up on both thinking it was large trash until my Pro Pointer finally started picking them up. Glad I didn't quit too soon thinking they were trash.

What I've found with the GT is that it will ID almost as deep as it sees, unlike other machines I've owned where the ID and tone seems to degrade a good bit less deep than the machine can see via the detection field. Roughly about a 1/8th to 1/4th of an inch perhaps beyond where my GT will ID with VDI and tone past that is how far it'll see stuff, where then it'll either null (I'm sure due to the microscopic iron in the soil overwhelming the target's qualities) or it'll ID and tone at a much lower level that never settles onto one number or tone response. That's mainly how I'll judge if a fringe depth target is trash or not. If it locks onto a # then I can be pretty sure that's the true ID, but if it continued to try to move up then might be a coin just out of the reach of the VDI, and the high tones mixed in will hint to that as I wiggle.

One of the reasons for the extreme depth and tone ID ability of the Sovereign at those depths is the unique way BBS ignores the ground, unlike any other detectors from other manufacturers. I've heard some say that the method it uses is to take a digital picture of the ground signal with and without a target present and contrast them, while Minelab's manual says it uses digital filtering.

 

[gfatizzi]

Hey Critter, I've been using the Sov on and off since 1995 and yes I DO remember that with the GT when I first got one. I had all the other previous Sovs to compare it to. I remember using really good headphones when I heard it too. I believe they were something in the Grey Ghost or Timberwolf lines. You know the type. Big DEEP noise cancelling ear muffs. Anyway, I was surprised I even noticed it because I have some upper high end hearing loss from over 30 plus years of drumming (and screaming guitar amps lol). But I DID distinctly hear that and thought to myself, "wow, they must have juiced this baby up a little because I can actually HEAR the coil's preamp working!" I always felt the GT was more sensitive than the previous Sovs too as I did notice more iron falses with it (as well as the DEEPER finds). I also remember thinking that the 10" Tornado was my favorite stock open coil from Minelab made for the Sov to date. The 8" CoinSearch still remains my all time favorite though. I like the way it glides out in the field and doesn't get caught up on stubble or branches and boy did I find a TON of stuff with it! Funny to hear someone else mention that after all these years... HH George

 

[Critterhunter]

Glad to hear it's not just me hearing this. And I'm using cheap $20 Sony Studio headphones (small, like 1/3rd the size of regular ones, but comfortable and not as small as Walkman style). So it can't be the headphones as these don't have any kind of limiter circuit or signal boost in them.

The falsing- Even with Iron Mask ON to pull signals out of iron better and also give a tad bit more depth, I don't find it any more noisy than prior machines. I always hunted with iron and everything else accepted anyway so having iron silenced makes it a real smooth ride for me compared to what I'm used to. Was worried that would mask some stuff but Iron Mask On seems to pull stuff for me out of iron like magic.

I'm wondering if it's exclusive to the GT model with some kind of "boost" mode when doing the wiggle on deep stuff. Yea, I know the wiggle works best for prior models too to pull the best/ID and tone out of deep stuff, but I'm just saying is there something extra going on here. I was about to track down the prior owner and ask if he had it modded but with your remarks maybe it's built into the GT, if not prior models?

The pre-amp thing...Far as I know all the coils use the same pre-amp, which just an initial boost to the RX signal to keep it from degrading or fading as it travels up the cable, and also before it can pick up any more EMI that would be amplified with it. Once inside the control box, the signal is further performed gain on via your sensitivity setting, so I don't think this is a pre-amp thing with say newer coils. Far as I know only the original coils had a slightly different pre-amp in them (with a redundant ground from memory), and then a newer off the shelf IC was used but otherwise pretty much the same basic circuit.

Those two 11+ inch coins I dug I could hear this white noise type of amping distinctly as I wiggled, and then a click again as it moved out of it when I stopped wiggling. I could not believe those coins banged that good and with perfect ID at that depth *in my soil*, but as said the moisture content of the ground was perfect if memory serves. I think it was the perfect storm at that site for that given day.

Been chasing those depths *in my soil* ever since, although I can see the 12x10 more easily IDing coins in the 8 or 9+ inch depth range easier under dry conditions than my 10" Tornado did. In many of my mineralized sands the depth even seems easier and at deeper depths, even with the stock 10" Tornado, except for one particular beach that has tons of microscopic iron, black sand, and other minerals mixed in it. In that place disc is choking out at like 5" or so on a coin or even nulling or not even seeing it, but with PP mode it's easily hitting those and much deeper even without raising sensitivity to full which they say you can do with PP even in the worst of grounds. I've tried that and it appears so.

I don't turn the volume up on my GT in disc due to a lack of volume controls on these headphones. Been meaning to build a limiter for them so I can crank it full on the GT without surface blasts nailing me. Always heard full volume gave most depth but I don't see that in disc with my GT when I've tested it precisely. Same depth. Maybe it's a GT thing different than prior models? I know when I've played around with the Excalibur volume does indeed seem to effect disc's depth.

But in terms of volume on my GT for sure in PP mode it shows me a good bit more depth at full volume where as if I turn it all the way down in PP it gets less depth than disc sometimes. But, even at this particular bad beach with volume at lowest and sensitivity only where disc finds stable, PP was still punching deeper. Figured that was good enough for most of the hunts there because it woke up the beach with targets like I couldn't believe. Only when targets started getting scarce on other days did I try full volume/full sensitivity with PP and man it does seem to get the depth of the best of the PI units like people say and cut right through even minerals the legendary abilities of BBS seems to have trouble with.

 

[OldBeechnut]

volume/full sensitivity with PP

Now you got it critter,Welcome to the other side...... full everything with PP...Good Job,

 

[Birdseed]

CH

I don't believe Ihave experienced the "White Noise" issue you describe. What does happen occasionaly is an odd loud metallic click in the phones, the audio drops to silent then ramps up to normal about half a second later. I use the 10" Tornado. I have always thought it was some kind of EMI or interference that caused it. I have had my GT for a bit over 5 years. The detector has always has and still does perform faultlessly. Have you or anyone else experienced this ?

Pete

 

[Critterhunter]

What kind of headphones you using? If they've got a limiter circuit in them a large or shallow object can cause the headphone limiter circuit to blank out and then return in low volume. That's what a limiter does, so you can run full blast volume on the headphones and not have surface stuff or big targets blast your ears. Big stuff though even with my non-limiter headphones the GT will often "blank" on those like you describe. It's like what happens when the FBS units flash "Overload" on the screen sometimes.

 

[Critterhunter]

volume/full sensitivity with PP

Now you got it critter,Welcome to the other side...... full everything with PP...Good Job,

I did a pictorial (link below) explaining why I didn't see it before until precisely measuring PP versus disc and low versus high volume precisely in that pictorial via a ruler in the foreground of the camera. One of the things that threw me off, besides "by eye" testing before with no precise way to measure it, was that often when I'd switch to PP in the field to PP a target I found with disc PP couldn't see it.

I have heard references to Minelab in the past saying that to insure you hear the deepest of targets the volume should be cranked to full on the machine and then adjusted on the headphones. I don't see any depth difference with disc with lowest versus highest volume on my GT, but for sure PP mode shows me that. Perhaps prior Sovereign models need full volume in disc to insure targets at max depth are heard? I know on an Excalibur I've been playing with volume does indeed effect depth in disc, just not on my GT.

Also updated the video with the email I got from somebody at Minelab explaining that indeed PP mode on the GT uses the ground balance All Metal Tracking mode sets for Fixed all Metal mode, where as the manual says PP is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. They also indicated like most of us knew that disc doesn't use the ground balance setting all Metal uses but rather it's own unique way to ignore the ground signal.

They also said that when you flip over to disc and then back to PP or Fixed, the last ground balance All Metal Fixed was set with via All Metal Track will be the one Fixed or PP mode uses, so it's nice to know I won't loose the ground balance set when I use my remote PP switch to flip back and fourth from Disc Iron Mask On Mode to PP or All Metal Fixed mode. This updated info I stuck in the responses section of the video at the bottom below the video description message...

http://youtu.be/G817__EOC8A

 

[Critterhunter]

Not meaning to imply a limiter will just blank out any large surface blast. The ones I've used in the past just drop the volume down to comfortable levels, but often you can hear a kind of click as it does that as the limiter in the headphones kicks in, depending on what method they are using to damper it.

 

[Birdseed]

CH

I use a helicopter headset with the boom mike removed see specs here. Only modification is to replace the original pads with gel filled ones. To the best of my knowledge there is no limiter circuit. I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right place at the right time. A couple of pairs were being replaced and I was asked if I wanted the old ones for my ham radio station. I could not believe the clarity and response when I tried them on my Sov GT. I have never used the stock supplied phones again. If you know any aircraft owners that are upgrading headsets, these are a good option. With the gel pads fitted and the Sov GT set at a very low threshold nearly all external noise is eliminated, I cannot hear a person talking in a normal voice level at more than three feet.

I don't believe the click I hear is a fault, more like a response to an EMI pulse of some sort. It is reminiscent of the loud crack you get on a short wave radio receiver due to a lightning strike. Actually more like a loud metallic "PLINK" than a click.

I was just wondering if others had experienced the same phenomenon.

Cheers

Pete

 

[Neil]

volume/full sensitivity with PP

Now you got it critter,Welcome to the other side...... full everything with PP...Good Job,

I did a pictorial (link below) explaining why I didn't see it before until precisely measuring PP versus disc and low versus high volume precisely in that pictorial via a ruler in the foreground of the camera. One of the things that threw me off, besides "by eye" testing before with no precise way to measure it, was that often when I'd switch to PP in the field to PP a target I found with disc PP couldn't see it.

I have heard references to Minelab in the past saying that to insure you hear the deepest of targets the volume should be cranked to full on the machine and then adjusted on the headphones. I don't see any depth difference with disc with lowest versus highest volume on my GT, but for sure PP mode shows me that. Perhaps prior Sovereign models need full volume in disc to insure targets at max depth are heard? I know on an Excalibur I've been playing with volume does indeed effect depth in disc, just not on my GT.

Also updated the video with the email I got from somebody at Minelab explaining that indeed PP mode on the GT uses the ground balance All Metal Tracking mode sets for Fixed all Metal mode, where as the manual says PP is a form of all metal that doesn't feature a ground balance. They also indicated like most of us knew that disc doesn't use the ground balance setting all Metal uses but rather it's own unique way to ignore the ground signal.

They also said that when you flip over to disc and then back to PP or Fixed, the last ground balance All Metal Fixed was set with via All Metal Track will be the one Fixed or PP mode uses, so it's nice to know I won't loose the ground balance set when I use my remote PP switch to flip back and fourth from Disc Iron Mask On Mode to PP or All Metal Fixed mode. This updated info I stuck in the responses section of the video at the bottom below the video description message...

http://youtu.be/G817__EOC8A

critter your 2nd paragraph is backwards. On the excal the volume is a headphone volume and doesnt effect the depth. On the GT the volume is a target volume and does effect how loud a targets response is. Try turning your GT on, set your volume just above minimum, then set your threshold to a slight buzz.
Now start waving a coil about 6 inches off the coil and listen.......slowly turn up the volume and keep waving the coin the same distance from the coil and the targets signal response increases in volume as the volume gets turned up.

On the GT and all the sovs with the volume control, if you turn the volume on at minimum and then set your threshold buzz, then raise the volume without waving anything in front of the coil, you will not hear a threshold increase.
On the Excal if you do this you do hear a threshold increase because its a headphone volume on the Excal but its a target volume on the GT.

And the all metal mode with tracking does not set the pinpoint all metal setting. it can be locked in by using fixed but it doesnt effect the pinpoint mode.
pinpoint all metal on the GT is the same as on the Excals and the Sov XS thru the Elite models.........and they have no tracking feature like the GT, so how do they adjust?
maybe oldbeechnut can chime in on what he thinks his excals do when he is running in pinpoint and beach hunting. That mode certainly seems to run
seamlessly through varied soils, just like the disc mode, at least thats been my experience.

 

[JimmyCT]

Neil,
I agree with you on the "target volume" knob for the Sov GT. When I first starting hunting with the Sov GT I wasn't finding anything deep. Just 3"-4" maybe 5" at most. I was frustrated that I wasn't finding anything at depth and started thinking to myself, " there is something wrong with this machine" In reality, there was something wrong with the user lol. So back to the "drawing board" = Findmall. Many here (including yourself), told me to go back and read the manual AGAIN. (which I did) It finally sunk in about the Target Volume knob. What really had to happen was for me to buy a good quality pair of headphones so I could crank the target volume knob and adjust on my headphones. I ended up buying a pair of Sunray Pro Gold and now the target volume is always at max. Once I did that, the deep targets started appearing.

As far as "White Noise" I am lucky I hear the high pitch tone of silver and copper. In fact, I really can't hear the "whole" high pitch to it. For me (with my hearing) it just cuts out. I would love to hear what you guys are talking about but in my life, it will never happen.

Mr. Birdseed - thanks for the link to the aviations headset. Great idea!

 

[Critterhunter]

In both a video where I precisely measured the impact of full versus low volume on my GT in both disc and PP mode, as well as checking disc's depth on very fringe stuff in the field by way of lowest versus highest volume, I see absolutely no depth difference in disc with lowest or highest volume. The only thing I do see is that it's a bit easier to hear the "meat" or traits of the target at fringe depth with disc at full volume. PP mode for sure though shows me more depth with full volume.

I have read of Minelab saying in the past to insure you hear the deepest of targets to use full volume on the Sovereign. What I suspect is that prior Sovereign models, like the current Excalibur rendition being made, due in fact use the volume control as a form of signal boost, but I just don't see that on my GT. Could also be that the headphone choice has an impact on that in differences of opinion on it being true or not on the GT. If a pair of headphones requires more of an audio signal to sound off to it, then very well could be people need full volume to hear things deeper. Not for me though with these Sony's.

Believe me, I've not only measured it with a ruler in the foreground of the camera, but also I've checked this a bunch in the field when I've hunted at full volume in disc, found a fringe depth target, and then lowered volume all the way to see if it would go away. I'm real picky about maxing out the performance of my machine, so if I had any doubt it would be full volume all the time.

Only reason I run at lowest volume is no volume controls on these headphones, so the surface stuff or large targets don't blast my ears. That said, when I get around to owning the Pro Golds, you can bet it'll be full volume on my GT and then adjust it lower on the headphones and/or using the limiter circuit they come with, so as to not risk any loss of depth with those headphones.

PS- Not only the differences in Sovereign models perhaps, or headphones maybe, but also could all depend on people's hearing abilities. As I said, if I had any doubt I was losing depth on fringe depth with volume all the way done there is no way I would risk doing that when after old coins. At least with my GT, these Sony Studio Phones, and my hearing, there is no difference.