MAKRO RACER POWER
New member
Dears . we are still waiting all the accessories with MINELAB equinox machine and really we didn't know when exactly we will have it like 15 inch search coil and 6 inch search coil Also and other things
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When MINELAB
- Thread starter MAKRO RACER POWER
- Start date
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Regarding coils, constructing a coil is exceptionally difficult you don't want Minelab rushing that.
Pyledriver
Active member
It’s beyond me as to why this is taking so long.. Its not like they’ve never built a detector before! I think this is a marketing strategy to keep the Equinox at the top of the market. Kind of with the idea of no such thing as bad press.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Pyledriver said:
No its because building coils is very difficult to get right. The coil has to be balanced, transmit and receive coil windings overlapped very precisely so that none of the transmit signal is being picked up on the receive winding. The tiniest nudge can knock the coil way out of balance. Even when you get the windings positioned just the epoxy curing can pull them out of balance. Based on the xray pics of the stock coil it looks like ML is using a short length of coil wire to fine tune the balance.
And that's the easy part. The coil windings have to be wound consistently, not too tight and not too loose. There needs to be some space between the windings and the outer carbon black shielding paint. The outer carbon black shielding paint needs to be completely sealed off from the outside word. So a coil is a sandwich of coil winding, epoxy, shielding paint, more epoxy, then finally the coil shell. No gaps, no pin holes. And they have to take a lot of abuse.
Once upon a time I built coils for my Explorers, it was a maddening process.
Pyledriver
Active member
Not buying it. Minelab has plenty of experience here. Edited to add- I was in a hurry earlier and realized my quick post sounds a little a-holeish... Not my intention! I just honestly think that engineering and manufacturing processes are not the issue. BTW-awesome that you can make coils! You probably shouldn’t have admitted that! Never know we all might want a special coil next...
Charles (Upstate NY) said:
I'm sure they are difficult to produce, but Minelab has more than enough experience/knowledge in the making of all detector accessories, and are very aware of the time it takes to produce/ship them. The rollout timing of the unit itself was somewhat botched, and the accessories are now as well. If the availability of something like a coil is that difficult to project, then they should cease in providing timeframes, such as... "April, late spring, end of June", etc. My last communication with Minelab this week was "very soon" on the 6". My fingers are crossed...
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Ahahaha my mad scientist coil building phase. Here's some advice for anyone contemplating building coils, if you can buy the coil buy it, complete waste of time trying to duplicate a coil that's already available. Instead focus on special custom coils nobody offers.
1. Coaxial coplanar coils, spooky good in trash, they produce a cone shape detection pattern. I built a 9 inch, never saw so many plugs come up with so many trash targets in the side of the plug, coin dead center, clean signal. There's an endless variety of shapes and sizes and you don't have to build such a large coil to go deep because the outer transmit winding is already quite large. The 9 inch had a nearly 9 inch diameter transmit winding. Look at your 11 inch DD coil, its transmit winding is not nearly as large. Re-envision the elliptical coil. Good for getting into nooks and crannies, not so good on depth because the transmit winding is quite narrow. In a 5x9 inch elliptical the transmit winding on a DD is maybe 3 inches wide. A coaxial coplaner version of that coil the transmit winding is a full 5 x 9 inches.
2. Specialty DD coils Okay what determines how deep a DD coil will go, coil width or coil length? A 5 inch wide by 24 inch long DD coil will cover a lot of ground per swing, but won't go that deep because the transmit/receive windings are pretty narrow. Think coil width for depth, length plays a part but mostly its width. I once built a 18 inch wide by 12 inch long DD coil for depth. Shortening the coil length front to back did a couple of things, it eliminated 6 inches of coil epoxy and shell weight and 6 inches of that hot zone down the center. Just more usable. Get near the depth of an 18 with less weight, easier to swing, more maneuverable. 15 inch WOT coil or 15x11 stubby WOT I'd rather swing a stubby WOT.
Here's my plastic coil shell thermoforming contraption, those were the days lol.
1. Coaxial coplanar coils, spooky good in trash, they produce a cone shape detection pattern. I built a 9 inch, never saw so many plugs come up with so many trash targets in the side of the plug, coin dead center, clean signal. There's an endless variety of shapes and sizes and you don't have to build such a large coil to go deep because the outer transmit winding is already quite large. The 9 inch had a nearly 9 inch diameter transmit winding. Look at your 11 inch DD coil, its transmit winding is not nearly as large. Re-envision the elliptical coil. Good for getting into nooks and crannies, not so good on depth because the transmit winding is quite narrow. In a 5x9 inch elliptical the transmit winding on a DD is maybe 3 inches wide. A coaxial coplaner version of that coil the transmit winding is a full 5 x 9 inches.
2. Specialty DD coils Okay what determines how deep a DD coil will go, coil width or coil length? A 5 inch wide by 24 inch long DD coil will cover a lot of ground per swing, but won't go that deep because the transmit/receive windings are pretty narrow. Think coil width for depth, length plays a part but mostly its width. I once built a 18 inch wide by 12 inch long DD coil for depth. Shortening the coil length front to back did a couple of things, it eliminated 6 inches of coil epoxy and shell weight and 6 inches of that hot zone down the center. Just more usable. Get near the depth of an 18 with less weight, easier to swing, more maneuverable. 15 inch WOT coil or 15x11 stubby WOT I'd rather swing a stubby WOT.
Here's my plastic coil shell thermoforming contraption, those were the days lol.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
D&P-OR said:MAKE ME A COIL CHARLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Building one off coils is super expensive and very time consuming. Never say never but I'm not likely to build coils again until I retire in 10 years and then I'll be too busy detecting for gold on the beach most likely.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
In manufacturing there are other reasons for delays like sourcing materials and parts. A business my brother works for is trying to order some aluminum tubing, estimated delivery time 18 months, it used to be 6 months.
It may be that part of the delay in getting the Nox to market was due to issues with coil performance. Even as released. Pinpointing leaves a lot to be desired and there may be other issues which are obvious on a test rig, but not so obvious to us users.
If the above speculation is correct (and it may or not be correct) - difficulties in getting the other coils to perform correctly - or a low yield in prototype production (some units OK, others not) may have something to do with the delays.
One thing for sure, ML ain’t going to tell us why.
If the above speculation is correct (and it may or not be correct) - difficulties in getting the other coils to perform correctly - or a low yield in prototype production (some units OK, others not) may have something to do with the delays.
One thing for sure, ML ain’t going to tell us why.
dewcon4414
Well-known member
I agree Rick...... may have been a rush to market or ...... a delay still keeps us talking dont it? Stars have found even bad press is good when it comes to selling themselves. Ive heard of issues with the PP.....but i rarely use it. Now .... talk to me about lost targets in the hole. The Nox dont seem to like targets changing angle........ i know the targets still there and take another scoop. Big Tom.......wonder why they changed the standard coil then from the CTX?
In 10 years..... a lot can change Charles.
In 10 years..... a lot can change Charles.
Pyledriver
Active member
Maybe it’s a similar situation to the 7000. There are two coils, the stock and an even larger one that costs $1500! No smaller ones apparently will or CAN be offered due to some special design of the 7000. I find it hard to believe they would advertise something they couldn’t produce, but maybe the gap in the theoretical vs the actual has been affected by a performance issue as mentioned above..? Aggravating is what it is.
Charles, you are so correct about the difficulty in building coils. This would be especially the case for those coils that have more that just a few winds of wires and such proprietary circuits built in with them.
BUT, you'd think that Minelab could have let Coiltek build us their version of a another coil or 2 for the Equinox by now.
No doubt they could have trusted Coiltek to get it right, probably with some royalties in return and in the meantime it may have kept many of us whingers , me included happy, until Minelab could actually offer us their own other coils for the Equinox.........
David Di
BUT, you'd think that Minelab could have let Coiltek build us their version of a another coil or 2 for the Equinox by now.
No doubt they could have trusted Coiltek to get it right, probably with some royalties in return and in the meantime it may have kept many of us whingers , me included happy, until Minelab could actually offer us their own other coils for the Equinox.........
David Di
I've never seen a coil being designed or made so can't comment as to how challenging that is for Minelab to do but they already show pictures of the other coils and you can order coil covers so they must exist somewhere? seems to me their process from design to manufacturing and sale is the road block. Is that the plan for marketing, or have they had issues in testing?? Who knows all a guess at this point. Heck all I needed was a replacement middle shaft and they don't have that. Can only assume they did not expect the large number of people requiring replacement shafts or they are redesigning them as those should be a cakewalk to produce.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Okay, lets understand the madness of building a coil...
Resistance, Inductance, Capacitance, not the only electronic specs you have to be concerned with but lets focus just on these three simple specs. All must measure within a very narrow range no mater what size coil you build, at least on an Explorer. Who knows maybe the Equinox is less picky but lets continue with the understanding I'm speaking of Explorer coils.
If you make an adjustment to bring inductance into spec, it may knock resistance out of spec, or capacitance, or both, and vise versa in a tug of war between the specs. Via trial and error I found there was normally a specific gauge wire, even a half gauge wire for RX that would bring everything in spec for a given size coil. One or half a gauge wire difference in either direction and the coil is out of spec. Wire gauge does not remain constant from 6 to 10 to 12 to 14 inch coil sizes. Once you get the gauge figured out, wind the wire too tight and its out of spec, too loose and its out of spec. The thicker transmit winding wasn't really a problem it was the thin gauge receive winding that was finicky.
Your coil cable, too long or too short or the wrong gauge wire and again the coil is out of spec. Measurements include the coil cable. Magnet wire insulation comes in various types and thickness, yet another variable that can throw things off. Oh no there's lots more. So you wind TX, it looks beautiful, perfectly in spec...but it took 1/2 extra turn more wire to get there and now the end of the wire you need to solder to the coil cable is 8 inches away clear over the other side of the coil shell (face palm). lol
Forget the electronics, just try to build a plastic coil shell that was a whole journey in itself. Air bubbles in the mixed epoxy. How to assemble given the windings have to be completely shielded in anti static shielding paint else the coil will false. Pin hole in the coil shell that allows outside water to reach the shielding paint the coil will false. Shielding paint too conductive its detected (carbon black is the shielding paint required). Too much flex in the coil shell wings for the lower rod the coil will false.
I'm scratching the surface here, for a home hobbyist to build coils in their garage, its pretty expensive. Its cool as hell, knowing that you can build your own coils of any design you want is a lot of fun but don't underestimate the complexity and cost.
Resistance, Inductance, Capacitance, not the only electronic specs you have to be concerned with but lets focus just on these three simple specs. All must measure within a very narrow range no mater what size coil you build, at least on an Explorer. Who knows maybe the Equinox is less picky but lets continue with the understanding I'm speaking of Explorer coils.
If you make an adjustment to bring inductance into spec, it may knock resistance out of spec, or capacitance, or both, and vise versa in a tug of war between the specs. Via trial and error I found there was normally a specific gauge wire, even a half gauge wire for RX that would bring everything in spec for a given size coil. One or half a gauge wire difference in either direction and the coil is out of spec. Wire gauge does not remain constant from 6 to 10 to 12 to 14 inch coil sizes. Once you get the gauge figured out, wind the wire too tight and its out of spec, too loose and its out of spec. The thicker transmit winding wasn't really a problem it was the thin gauge receive winding that was finicky.
Your coil cable, too long or too short or the wrong gauge wire and again the coil is out of spec. Measurements include the coil cable. Magnet wire insulation comes in various types and thickness, yet another variable that can throw things off. Oh no there's lots more. So you wind TX, it looks beautiful, perfectly in spec...but it took 1/2 extra turn more wire to get there and now the end of the wire you need to solder to the coil cable is 8 inches away clear over the other side of the coil shell (face palm). lol
Forget the electronics, just try to build a plastic coil shell that was a whole journey in itself. Air bubbles in the mixed epoxy. How to assemble given the windings have to be completely shielded in anti static shielding paint else the coil will false. Pin hole in the coil shell that allows outside water to reach the shielding paint the coil will false. Shielding paint too conductive its detected (carbon black is the shielding paint required). Too much flex in the coil shell wings for the lower rod the coil will false.
I'm scratching the surface here, for a home hobbyist to build coils in their garage, its pretty expensive. Its cool as hell, knowing that you can build your own coils of any design you want is a lot of fun but don't underestimate the complexity and cost.