What's up with Fisher and accessory coils?

[steve herschbach]

Hi,

First, I must note I am an old Fisher fan. Old as in the older machines. I still have a Gold Bug 2 and it ranks as one of my all-time favorite machines. Look in the latest Fisher World Treasure News at http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/documents/worldtreasurenews.pdf and you'll even see an article I wrote about using the Gold Bug 2 to score some gold.

So do not think I'm not fond of Fisher because of my following remarks.

I'm trying to talk myself into getting an ID Edge. But one thing that really bothers me is the lack of attention Fisher has been giving to accessory coils.

When the Fisher Gold Strike came out I was PROMISED a 14" elliptical coil for what seemed an eternity. Next month, next week, any minute now... it went on and on but never happened.

I'm looking at the Coin Strike and Excel and seeing a similar lack of attention.

I'd like to get an ID Edge. I have some concerns about the way they decided to do the notch system. I think it should have totally independent notches throughout the entire range. Garrett can do it for $249.95 so you'd think Fisher could pull it off at $799.00. But it is close enough to what I want I'd like to give it the benefit of the doubt.

One thing that would really be a selling point for me would be a 5" coil like I had for my CZ-5 and CZ-70 Pro. I REALLY liked that little coil.

But given recent history I just have to question whether Fisher will ever give me a 5" coil for the ID Edge if I do get the machine.

What seems totally nuts to me is that they seem to have purposefully knocked the ID Edge just far enough off spec from the Excel to make the limited selection of existing coils, and aftermarket products like the Sun Ray probe not work.

Am I missing something here? Somebody give me a hand and push me "over the Edge"!

Steve Herschbach

 

[wade tx]

That's the reason I never tried a coinstrike or an Excel ID, I have had all the CZ's. I use the 5" coil 95% of the time, and I'm interested in the Edge, but I would like to know that a smaller coil was available. Seems strange, I would like for someone from Fisher to explain what's going on with this company.--Wade tx

 

[OldeTymer]

steve herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,
>
> First, I must note I am an old Fisher fan. Old as
> in the older machines. I still ahve a Gold Bug 2
> and it ranks as one of my all-time favorite
> machines. Look in the latest Fisher World Treasure
> News at
> http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/documents/worldtrea
> surenews.pdf and you'll even see an article I
> wrote about using the Gold Bug 2 to score some
> gold.
>
> So do not think I'm not fond of Fisher because of
> my following remarks.
>
> I'm trying to talk myself into getting an ID Edge.
> But one thing that really bothers me is the lack
> of attention Fisher has been giving to accessory
> coils.
>
> When the Fisher Gold Strike came out I was
> PROMISED a 14" elliptical coil for what seemed an
> eternity. Next month, next week, any minute now...
> it went on and on but never happened.
>
> I'm looking at the Coin Strike and Excel and
> seeing a similar lack of attention.

They promised and promised that a 5" coil was imminent, but it never showed.


> I'd like to get an ID Edge. I have some concerns
> about the way they decided to do the notch system.
> I think it should have totally independent notches
> throughout the entire range. Garrett can do it for
> $249.95 so you'd think Fisher could pull it off at
> $799.00. But it is close enough to what I want I'd
> like to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Actually, the list price is $749.95. Maybe that's why.

>
> One thing that would really be a selling point for
> me would be a 5" coil like I had for my CZ-5 and
> CZ-70 Pro. I REALLY liked that little coil.

Yep, that would be a great selling point, but I'm not going to hold my breath for one. I'm not waiting on the ID-Edge because it doesn't have one either. The ID-Edge sounds exactly what I had hoped the ID-Excel would be, but wasn't.

>
> But given recent history I just have to question
> whether Fisher will ever give me a 5" coil for the
> ID Edge if I do get the machine.

Again, I wouldn't hold my breath, although I've been told they plan on it. It's my understanding that the 10.5" coil will be available in December. We'll see. I'll believe it when I have one on my machine.


> What seems totally nuts to me is that they seem to
> have purposefully knocked the ID Edge just far
> enough off spec from the Excel to make the limited
> selection of existing coils, and aftermarket
> products like the SunRay probe not work.

Which limited selection of existing coils and aftermarket products, besides the SunRay probe, are you referring to? Are we sure that that slight change in frequency is going to not allow the ID-Excel SunRay probe to work?

> Am I missing something here? Somebody give me a
> hand and push me "over the Edge"!

If you like the ID-Excel, I would think you would like the ID-Edge even better based on the reports so far. If it's not really any better than the ID-Excel, then mine will be up for sale quickly after I get it. Let's hope that's not the case. Let's also hope that Fisher doesn't let us down this time by providing the accessory coils we seek. I guess only time will tell.

After all is said and done, Fisher is still a hard act to follow for most manufacturer's, and their instruments are know for their reliability and performance. If they do let us down this time, it will prove to me that they are more interested in their commercial and security market than the market that helped build the company to what it is today. I sure hope they teach us a lesson for doubting them.

OldeTymer

> Steve Herschbach

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi Olde Tymer,
When I do a "google" on ID Edge everyone is showing the ID Edge list price as $799.95. Have they lowered it since everyone put up their sites?

I'll refer you to the post at http://www.findmall.com/read.php?50,228368,228841#msg-228841 by Ralph of Sun Ray confirming the ID Edge will not work with the Sun Ray pinpointer for the Excel.

Not trying to be argumentative, just clarifying the questions. We obviously have a similar opinion on the coil promises that have gone unfulfilled. I still find it hard to believe the Edge would not share coils with the Excel but am basing that strictly on Ralphs post.

I'll be extremely interested in how you feel about the Edge once you get your hands on your new unit. I hope it is all you (and I) hope it to be!

Steve Herschbach

 

[OldeTymer]

steve herschbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Olde Tymer,
> When I do a "google" on ID Edge everyone is
> showing the ID Edge list price as $799.95. Have
> they lowered it since everyone put up their
> sites?

Just double checked on the price. Yes, $799.95 is the "normal" list price. $749.95 is the Holiday Special list price through December 30,2005.

> I'll refer you to the post at
> http://www.findmall.com/read.php?50,228368,228841#
> msg-228841 by Ralph of Sun Ray confirming the ID
> Edge will not work with the Sun Ray pinpointer for
> the Excel.

It does seem that with only a .25kHz difference between the two that they would be compatible, but I'm certainly no electronics expert. It would be interesting if Bill Ladd would try the Id-Excel coil on the Id-Edge he has, or visa versa, to see if it would work. I can see reasons, from a profit standpoint, for not having the SunRay probe for the Id-Excel work on the Id-Edge.

> Not trying to be argumentative, just clarifying
> the questions. We obviously have a similar opinion
> on the coil promises that have gone unfulfilled. I
> still find it hard to believe the Edge would not
> share coils with the Excel but am basing that
> strictly on Ralphs post.

I agree.

> I'll be extremely interested in how you feel about
> the Edge once you get your hands on your new unit.
> I hope it is all you (and I) hope it to be!
> Steve Herschbach

You and me both. I don't even mind the fixed notches, as I rarely use any notch system, but I sure hope the performance is better than the Id-Excel is in mineralized ground. I, also, understand your desire to be able to notch out whatever you want to. That was first available on the Whites Eagle back in the '80's, if my memory serves.

I was very pleased with the Id-Excel as far as weight, simplicity, ability to work in heavy iron and price. I would have another if the Id-Edge hadn't been announced. If the Id-Edge works exactly like the Id-Excel with the exception of better depth performance in higher mineralized sites, I will be a happy camper. You can be assured I won't hold anything back, but will tell it as I see it. I, too, started out in the days of PD (pre-discrimination) units with only BFO or TR/IB units to choose from. If only we would have had today's detectors back then.

OldeTymer

 

[Jackpine Savage]

Steve, I have hoped for smaller coils as well for the Coinstrike and Excel. A year or so ago we were promised by Fisher that they were working on a small coil for the Excel, possibly due out in the spring. It never showed and there has been no word from them as to why or if they are still working on one.

I can only guess as to the reason(s) why they are still not available. Perhaps the 5" biscuit style coil was not adaptable to the needs of these new detectors and they are holding off on developing a new shell/mold for economic reasons? Like I said I'm only guessing here, but if this is in fact the case it is high time that Fisher spends the dollars to produce a new mold or whatever is needed to get us a smaller coil. With the Edge being added to the lineup that makes 3 new detectors from Fisher and so far, only one accessory coil avaiable, the C$ 10.5". Shame Shame!

Tom
PS: Fisher give me a 6 or 6.5" coil, that would suit me just fine for these new machines.

 

[Mr.Bill]

COHO the parent company.

Out side of this I can't begin to think of a reason why they haven't offed them.

On the other side of the coin, coils are a real slow selling market. The manufactures know this, and they hate to tool up to make them because sales will be so poor. How many accessory coils do you sell now with your new detector sale ? Sell, not given away with the promo package.

Mr. Bill

 

[Anonymous]

ANNE from FRL told me the 10.5 EDGE LOOP would ship in December, but as a separate item only. You are not offered the EDGE with your choice of either the 8" or the 10.5", BUT it might be possible that some dealers will take the initiative and give you the choice. Regardless, I have the unit on order with Ron's Dixie Detectors with both loops. Also, Sunray told me earlier this year they were working on loops for the EXCEL-and a widescan would be nice also. If nothing else, you might contact Anne in customer service at FRL, and Sunray also to keep current of the status of these products. Showing interests certainly is an incentive to the makers to expand their accessories.

 

[Anonymous]

n/t

 

[Dan-Pa.]

An old Fisher fan...old as in senior citizen along with using the CZ since 92...Rel the Edge to me cost prohibitive as it hasn'r even been proven yet, but imagine if it goes over acc. coils will be had for same..Seems like Fsher is experimenting with many different machines over the last several years and of course coils are not interchageable which causes a problem for sales, production cost and the like. I would get on the phone and call Fisher and perhaps they can add some input...Yep acc. coils can make your unit several units in one with changing coils and lets hope Fisher reads this forum..Seems like Sunray is coming out with some dandies so that is another option as though pricey they make good products...

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi vlad,

The 10.5" is the wrong coil in my opinion.

What has me interested in ID Edge is the trash separation, which I assume will be at least as good if not better than the Excel. As good as the Excel is with the stock coil it would be killer with the 5" coil.

Unlike many I'm not a depth fiend. If I were I'd just use a Minelab Explorer. So the 10.5" coil does not appeal to me. I enjoy sniping coins in trash with a smaller coil. A small coil would play to what I perceive as being a strength in the Fisher units - the ability to work well in trash.

The lack of a small coil is what is keeping me away from the newer Fisher units right now.

Steve Herschbach

 

[steve herschbach]

Hi Bill,

If that is the problem then they need to sell the Fisher consumer division before they kill it. Time was when all I sold was Fisher detectors. Thank god I went multi-line or I'd be in a world of hurt relying on my Fisher sales anymore.

The fun thing about being a multi-line dealer is you get to see democracy in action. People voting with their wallets. As a businessman I could not care less which brand people buy when I am making a sale. I just try to make sure I'm offering what they are looking for. People usually walk in predisposed to a certain brand or model. I do not try and switch people. I try to stock what they ask for.

Not many people are asking for Fisher in my neck of the woods, except for the Gold Bug 2. White's is easily the most asked for brand by people walking in cold off the street, a testament to their fantastic marketing. Mind you I'm not selling them a White's - they walk in looking for one.

As far as accessory coils go I do well selling them. The key is to sell them. "You want a small coil with that detector, sir"? When they ask why, I tell them why. Small coil - better sensitivity to small items and better target separation. Large coil - more ground coverage and a bit of extra depth. I assume most dealers are so happy to make the detector sale they forget to sell the accessory coils.

I've always had better luck selling small coils rather than large, but that is no doubt because I personally believe small coils pay off better than large coils, and tell people that. I think small coils make people pay more attention, which makes them better detectorists. Big coils have more pinpointing problems and lead to more turf damage with newbies, and we have enough of that already.

Target id even tends to be better with small coils - just buy one!

So now you now why they sell well for me. And they also sell the detector, as I use the fact that a detector has a good set of accessory coils available as a selling point. White's has played this game well lately. Come out with the MXT, and it uses the DFX coils. As you add multiple models that all share coils, the customer base goes up. As the base goes up, third party people jump in. The DFX/MXT now have a killer line of accessory coils from White's, Jimmy Sierra, Sun Ray, and DeTech (Kellyco). If they are really smart, future machines will tap into this existing coil supply.

Fisher desperately needs a coherent strategy. If they want to weed their line down, which appears to be the case, then they need to settle on a coil line and then build detectors for the coils, not vice versa. Building unique units that require separate coils means not enough unit base to support coil sales, which means no reason to build the accessory coils...

which costs Fisher my business!

Steve Herschbach

<b>Here I am with my Gold Bug 2 w/14" accessory coil and a 14.1 dwt nugget it found at Ganes Creek, Alaska</b>
<img src="http://www.akmining.com/mine/jp000001.jpg">

 

[Anonymous]

There must be more we don't know about the situation. An obvious "cover all bases approach" would be to come out with a new detector as a two loop promotional package, with both 5" and 10.5", instead of a middle of the road compromise 8" loop as everyone else does. [In effect-they are guaranteed the sell of the second loop.] Plus buying the second loop in a special package deal would be cheaper than purchasing separately later by the user, so EVERYONE wins.
When FRL made the 5" coil for the CZ you could get the overload signal on coins, nevermind the fact that you just needed to lift it slightly to overcome this. But it did not go over well with many people; yet I think its a killer in a high trash enviroment. When the C$ came out FRL said to greatly decrease the sensitivity on the 8" in high trash areas, but evidently that did not placate the market who wants a 5" loop. I've talked to Discovery and they have no plans to offer any loops for ANY Fishers, so I guess If enough of us write/call Sunray, a 5" may be on the horizon for the C$ or the EDGE. Sunray did say earlier this year a new loop for the EXCEL was forthcoming. Some of the overseas companies might be interested, but the exchange rate would kill us.

 

[Anonymous]

Did he say if it was anything more than an impedance missmatch? I think exact frequency matches are not as important as impedance. I once hooked up a 15khz D-Tex loop on a 5khz machine, which worked fine, and it was later when I was disassembling it I noticed the error. Also, I think Tesoro purposely gives some frequency variance on their detectors, so that people using the same models can hunt close together.

 

[Tagamet]

vlad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did he say if it was anything more than an
> impedance missmatch? I think exact frequency
> matches are not as important as impedance. I once
> hooked up a 15khz D-Tex loop on a 5khz machine,
> which worked fine, and it was later when I was
> disassembling it I noticed the error. Also, I
> think Tesoro purposely gives some frequency
> variance on their detectors, so that people using
> the same models can hunt close together.

I'm not sure of the technical reasons Ralph referred to, but HE WAS VERY FIRM that there are significant and apparently deal breaker technical issue(s) that will not allow cross model accessories.
HTH,
Tagamet