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:usaflag: There's a lesson here somewhere Friends!! :detecting:

Cupajo

Active member
In the late '60s I was stationed in Bitburg, Germany.

Friends of mine poked around some of the old bunkers still in evidence at the time.

They were fenced off, but a fence never stopped a damned fool or a teenager poking around (Same creature!!)

One of the fellows told me of reaching up high on a stone wall to retrieve a rusted thing that might be a relic he could relish owning to discover he had in his hands a potato masher grenade!

It could have been extremely sensitive to movement and killed the young fool!

He gently (Not a total fool!!) placed it on the closest protected surface and walked quietly away.

He called the authorities to report the find and lived to enjoy another day!!

There is a lesson here somewhere Friends,

CJ
 
Down here it might have been a rattlesnake or something else with teeth with which to inflict bodily harm to you. Thank goodness that the young boy did not panic and took control of the situation best he could.

A few years ago, one of the forums posted a story where a man reached down through a hole in a concrete slab while trying to retrieve a coin. When they shined a flashlight into the opening to see if there were any more coins, they saw a rattlesnake coiled up off to one side. Kelley (Texas) :)
 
Hey Kelley,

I grew up in the same environment and have lived in it most of my life, so I know exactly what you are referring to!!

Regards Friend,

CJ
 
I found it near the armories,where they teach the young soldiers.It was covered over with branches,I returned it to the rcmp station,wish I had a picture.It was not real but looked very real..
 
Years ago a pal of mine & I were cleaning out an abandoned garage. He said "Charley, is this what I think it is?" It was. We found a live pineapple grenade--WW II or Korea vintage. We got some electrician's tape & taped the spoon to the body of the grenade, got in the car, & drove to the Austin police station. We went up to the desk sergeant & my pal said "Sergeant, we're both ROTC cadets at UT & we've found something we believe should be turned over to the police." Then he laid that grenade--which was perfectly safe, since we'd wrapped it with about a dozen wraps of heavy-duty electrician's tape--on the desk. That guy went nuts! He wanted to arrest us for making threats & possessing an explosive device & all sorts of stuff. Fortunately, my dad worked in the same complex as a fire inspector & his boss was in the office. Once his boss got over to the PD things got straightened out. They finally realized we weren't mad bombers or something like that. They called Bergstrom AFB but Bergstrom didn't have an EOD unit. Then they called the Texas National Guard HQ at Camp Mabry & finally an old MSGT & a couple of techs came down & picked the thing up. I don't know what they did with it.
 
Normal procedure would be to blow it up in the next disposal event.

I read a while back about a fellow that had for years recovered live black powder cannon shells from the Civil War era and de-commissioned them. (Made them safe by removing the explosives)

He had done so many times and sold them to collectors.

He finally ran into one that taught him the hard way that these things are best left alone or disposed of in a proper way by qualified technicians.

He didn't live to make another mistake!

It's one of many things that keeps me from detecting Civil War battle sites even if I were in an area where I could!

Regards,

CJ.
 
Any time you find an unexploded black powder shell put it in a tub of water & leave it there about a week. By that time enough water will have seeped into the powder than it can't possibly explode. Then remove the fuze--it'll be a wooden or lead thing sticking out of the nose of the shell if it's conical or out of the side if it's round--& use a high-pressure hose to wash the rest of the powder out of it. The shell will then be perfectly safe. This DOES NOT, however, work on any 20th century or even late 19th century artillery projectile, nor on any tank projectile.

A bunch of hysterical EOD types actually blew up one of the 4 Mexican cannon shells from 1836 known to exist. During the retreat from San Jacinto in April & May of 1836 the Mexican army abandoned a lot of equipment. They called the retreat la mar de lodo (the sea of mud) because of all the mud they encountered. A guy actually traced their route & did digs along it. He found 4 shells--the only four known to exist. He let EOD have one of them & they destroyed it. The other 3 have had the powder washed out of them & are prized museum pieces.
 
Hi Charley,

This afternoon I watched a video on U-Tube showing a fellow doing exactly what you describe and he said he had defused 60 or so of the shells loaded with black powder.

He had his basement stacked high with shells and was very casual about hammering a screwdriver into the end of one on camera.

It would be interesting to know if he is the fellow who died when he was trying to defuse one that was a Navy shell and had an odd type of fuse he wasn't familiar with..

There was a bit about it in the on-line news a while back!

Personally, that's one part of relic hunting I will skip thank you!!

CJ
 
Those old shells will have 1 of 2 types of fuzes. One is a wooden tube, the top of which may be sealed with wax. The wax should be removed with an emery board or sandpaper. That will expose the powder in the fuze. You then put the shell into the water, fuze-side down, for about a week. The powder inside, by that time, will be a watery mush & completely safe. You can then pull the fuze & note that it has markings along it. Each marking stands for 1 second. You literally 'cut' the fuze with a saw to burn the proper length of time.

The second variety has a lead top with a raised spiral on it. The spiral is marked with numbers. Each number stands for 1 second. To 'cut' that sort of fuze there was a brass or bronze tool with a V-notched head. You placed the tool at the proper timing mark & hit it with a wooden mallet. If the fuze has not been cut, simply erode it with sandpaper or use a brass or bronze pointed instrument to open the powder trail. Submerge it in water for a week & it's perfectly safe.

There were no 'impact' fuzes for field artillery before the 1890s. For anti-personnel rounds the guns were loaded with canister, grapeshot, or langrage. Canister was large musket balls inside a container which had a fiber top. When the gun was fired the canister held the charge of balls together for about 300 yards, then fell away. At that point the balls began to spread. Grapeshot had a wooden sabot at the bottom with a dowel set in it. A woolen bag was fastened to the sabot, as was a heavy cordage net. The bag was filled with musket balls. The net kept the balls from exceeding the bore diameter of the weapon. The bag and net were tied at the top. When the weapon fired the sabot pushed the load out of the muzzle, the bag & net burned away, & the charge began to spread. Langrage was whatever you had handy--horseshoe nails, broken pottery, short pieces of chain, what have you. This stuff was usually used in a short-barreled gun--a howitzer, normally, though at the Alamo they actually had a carronade, a shipboard gun designed to sweep the enemy's decks. You pointed the langrage-loaded gun at the fort's gates & when the gate came open you touched it off. The result was devastation.

Modern shells have 4 sorts of fuzes--mechanical time superquick or MTSQ, point-detonating or PD, concrete-piercing or CP, & variable time or VT. MTSQ fuzes are set with a special fuze wrench before inserting into the projectile. They can be set anywhere from 1/10 sec to 70 secs. MTSQ fuzes will also detonate on contact with any solid object. Killer Jr., used in Nam, was an MTSQ fuze cut to 1/10 sec & fired with a charge 7 load. It would get about 400 meters in front of the muzzle & detonate. It was a good idea to be buttoned up in the gun when you fired Killer Jr. It & what was called 'Krispy Kritters' were used to repel mass attacks, "Krrispy Kritters' was charge 7, no projectile. When you pulled the string on a 155 you got about 500 meters of 4500-degree flame, 50 or so meters wide, which was why it was called 'Krispy Kritters.'

PD fuzes detonate on contact with any solid object or can be set with a 1/5 sec delay to penetrate into the ground. CP fuzes are a delay fuze with a very hard nose. The momentum of the projectile carries it into a concrete fortification. The hardend nose allows successful penetration without detonation until the projectile has penetrated the concrete.

VT fuzes contain a radio transmitter & receiver. When the signal from the transmitter is received at a frequency which indicates the projectile is 20 meters above the ground, the fuze detonates the round. However, VT fuzes are subject to several things. Fired over water, they will often detonate 40 to 50 meters up. In addition, it's not a good idea to use them in heavy fog, because the fog will reflect the radio signal. Older--WW II vintage--VT fuzes could be set off simply by the radio signal hitting a large bird.

Field Artillery doesn't use shaped-charge projectiles. Those are used with tank rounds or with specific anti-tank weapons like the LAW or light anti-tank weapon.

Nobody other than qualified EOD personnel should ever attempt to defuze or handle in any way any modern explosive projectile. Duds are particularly dangerous. If an MTSQ fuze failed it may have failed because the timer got stuck--say, 1/10 sec before detonation. Disturbing it, even accidentally, could cause that timer to tick off that last 1/10 sec. At that point whoever disturbed the round will have to be scraped off the trees & rocks--if they can find enough of the guy to scrape off.
 
I had plenty of opportunity to learn about aircraft related weaponry, but your replies are the first explanations I've read about the old black powder projectiles that made sense.

Speaking of fuses, there was a bomb fuse of special design used in Vietnam that met the challenge of duds being hauled away and used against us.

(We lost a lot of our personnel to our own explosives salvaged and re-used by our enemy.)

It was a "proximity" fuse that could sense when someone was approaching the bomb and as soon as the person got close enough to trigger the mechanism it would explode.

It became common practice, I've been told, to send in an orphan child to see if the bomb would explode before risking some one with the skill to work on it!

A later version was supposedly designed to blow if anyone moved the bomb or if they tried to move away from the bomb after it allowed them to approach.

Weapons these days are unbelievable what with satellites and remote controlled "smart bombs and bombers"!

It sure boggles this old feller's grey matter!!

CJ
 
I spent 24 years in the Army, active & reserve. 22 years were commissioned service as a Field Artillery officer. I learned a lot about modern artillery. As a degreed historian, I also studied historical artillery. Black powder charges had to be measured carefully, & the weapon that used them had to have a specific granulation of powder. Pistol powder in a cannon, in the normal charge for that cannon, would cause the gun to explode. Cannon powder was very coarse--depending on the size of the gun, anywhere from the size of a whole peppercorn to the size of the last joint on a man's thumb. The larger the granules, the slower the powder burned. Black powder in any form burns a whole lot quicker than modern propellants. That's why I get a good laugh out of movies in which the villain touches off a powder train leading to a barrel of powder, the hero jumps on him, they fight, the hero knocks him out--and then runs over to kick the powder train loose so it doesn't get to the barrel. A 20-foot trail of cannon powder will burn in about 10 seconds.
 
Hi Charley,

Quite a history there Friend!

I know now why I was sure you were writing from experience rather than from something you had heard or read about!

Keep up the good work!

This forum and this world needs people that know what they are talking about!

Thanks for all your work Charley as it may save one of us from a serious mistake!!

Regards,

CJ
 
A friend of mine & I team-teach muzzle-loader shooting to FFA & VoAg students at Chaparral WMA south of Cotulla, in Dimmit County. We do this twice a year, in April & October. Since the WMA has only 2 rifles & 1 sixshooter, we take a lot of our own stuff down. Those kids get to shoot flint or cap, pistols, rifles, & a blunderbuss. This year we'll have 2 1.5-in bore shipboard-type cannons to play with. I don't know who has more fun out of it--us or the kids. We haven't fired the cannons yet, but I'm anxious to see what a load of grape will do to a particularly large prickly pear. We also get a lot of auxes--game wardens, hiway patrol, national guard, sometimes border patrol, who volunteer for this like we do--who come by our station 'to see what it's all about' & usually wind up saying 'Where can I get one of these things?"
 
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