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U.K field test F75

Canadian Digger

New member
The Searcher Magazine in the U.K ran an F75 Fieldtest in their May08 issue .There it was stated that if any disc level higher than 4 is selected in any process other than JE you will turn one of the deepest detectors on the market into something very ordinary .They suggested that the loss in depth could be as much as 25%.I would like some opinions on this as I have had mine set at 6 and DE .
(Searcher Magazine is very well respected in this field .}
thanks in advance for your comments.
 
It is understand by many at this point that the T2 and F75 disc settings also affect sensitivity levels but, FT is leaving us totally in the dark as to why this is so. Dave J says there is a good reason for it but also admits that it has caused a lot of confusion among users. I think it's about time for some technical info behind these results and end the confusion!!

:goodnight:

Tom
 
DE Disc 6 ive pulled silver 6-8 inches and have the photos to prove it. Disc 6 or lower, Disc 20 "i think" or higher the 75 go's into a amp gain. The reason the powers that be haven't talked about it is because its one of the trade secrets of the 75. Here is my own theory of why this is. Below 6 in iron infested sites the amp gain allows good target signals to come though the iron instead of masking them. Same thing with going above 20 or 25 "cant remember at the moment. But that is used for an area such as the park where alot of foil etc is in the ground. Some machines when you increase the disc you decrease the depth. This amp gain counters it. There is alot more to it than this such as target separation etc but you get the point. Again this is my own theory.
 
Tom has a good point, and a while back a poster here mapped the gain curve which is shown below.

[attachment 91757 F75Discrim.gif]

If the loss from an increased application of discrimination is to be countered by an increase in gain, then the net effect to the end user should be no discernible change in sensitivity as the discrimination level is changed. So that, the gain increases are mapped 1:1 against the discrimination sensitivity losses by the designers.

That's not what is happening, and the F75 has received a bad rap because new users expect it to respond linearly to control inputs and it doesn't. For the end user the only time the sensitivity should change appreciably is when they make the decision to change it, not when they change the discrimination level. Notice I used the word "appreciable", losses from increased discrimination have been noted for some time and it is good to make an effort to counter them. But if the effort results in erratic behavior you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

HH
BarnacleBill
 
HEY BB! Thanks!
Do you know if the test provided visual VDI or the first hint of a target?

Many times I am faced with an audible and have to look for clues on the screen before I get an indication of the type of target that may be there. In all honestly this graph is a good reason to go all metal and look for clues in other modes when needed. The graph is interesting and supports in a nice display what many have discovered.

In 'erratic behavior', the machine does lock on a good target, if you can stand the noise. The only reason for 'erratic behavior' after set-up ( check your connections) is external noise, EMI. Generally, the machine will detect and 'punch through' the noise on a target. This is not ideal detecting where we are listening for a whisper, but is extreme detecting FYI.

The Inverse Square Law is one reason why the machine can hear a target amidst noise. The only time I use discrimination is when I am high-grading for surface coins. I hardly ever get any EMI in the field.


Sunny Jim
 
Kinda like the "proprietary" things that the old Fisher used to say about the Coinstrike & such....
 
Only problem is that they have the same affirmations and dislikes we do, and people that don't know
how to set up a detector or what they are talking about. All of us have real life experience with the F-75
in discriminate at various settings. As to the supposed 25% loss at that setting, I'd say BOLLOCKS!
[And they will be screaming , "it doesn't discriminate iron."]
And nothing they said means anything to someone hunting in the all metal motion mode like Bill Ladd
prefers, or the non motion Stat Mode, which is one of the most powerful modes on any detector,
and least used or understood. Anyone wanting information on the TX boost as the discrimination is
increased should talk to Mr Bill. Other than Eric Foster's P.I.'s most of the UK made detectors are ranked at
the level of toys*. The best detectors and best sellers are U.S., Australian, or French.
[*There is also Georgi Chaushev's NEXXUS, but he is originally from Bulgaria.]
 
or "we're not telling" for marketing reasons :)
When the Coinstrike came out, the detecting community was sold on more frequencies are the best, & the infamous Minelab "multi arrrow" ad's going deeper into the ground as opposed to 1 lonely arrow of a single freq. unit. So, Fisher had no comment when asked if the C$ was multi frequency......
Now Minelab XT's & new Fishers are all single frequencies again, so I guess the multi rage has worn off some.....
 
With the ability to run at 3 frequencies depending on the loop used, plus there are different loop designs
within each frequency, you can easily spend as much money as a new ML SE, only they get it from you a little
at a time. I wonder if in the long run an SE would be a better choice?:crazy:
 
Information on the gain in conjunction of the disc level in DE mode was very early on some forums and on my www.fisherf75.com page.

So yes, the F75 has less power in De mode if disc is between 5 and 19. But is does not turn the F75 into something very ordinary .

Here is why:

1. The F75's depth in DE mode with disc between 5 and 19 is still on par or deeper than many top of the line detectors.
2. Due to the DD coil the F75 with the above settings will still cut deeper in bad soil than other detectors using a concentric coil.
3. Due to the very fast recovery speed of the F75 the detector will find targets other detectors miss, because the detector is less effected by target masking.

4. Sure the most punch is in the JE mode or in the All metal modes, or if you set disc lower than 5 in DE mode. In these modes the F75 does much better than most top of the line detectors.

5. If you have a car with a turbo why bother with a test with the turbo turned of ? I like the turbo on on my F75. ( JE mode or in the All metal modes, or if you set disc lower than 5 in DE mode)

Andy
 
When there's no sensible comments to offer on the core subject of the F75's discriminatory characteristics etc., why try to hide those inadequacies with vulgarity and xenophobic ranting against UK contributors?
To cloak such limitations, by gratuitous reference to other's good names, is not a strong ploy either..............

Regarding the discussion of the T2 and F75's discriminatory characteristics:

Once you are aware of the illustrated characteristics, you then are meant to utilise the effects as a tool to combat conditions and circumstances. This relates to both local EMI and target preferences, particularly in rejecting unwanted natural 'rocks' or such, and 'trash'.

The effects are evident in ALL T2 and F75 modes, with one exception, and that is the 75's JE mode.

The electrical 'image' of any target becomes diminished and degraded with depth. The degree of the degradation is governed by the ferrous nature of the soil and any adjacent material/metals.

The T2/F75's frequency provides fundamentally good target sensitivity. This is enhanced by the 2D search coil's length to breadth ratio.
All those are then complemented by excellent circuit design and software implementation.

The discrimination characteristics are FLEXIBLE in as much as YOU set them according to both the circumstances dictated by the site you're searching, and your audio tolerance levels.

When you reject ferrous targets and low conductivity 'trash', you naturally incur the penalty of also rejecting to a lesser degree any *deeper* targets which under better circumstances do not normally equate to that 'rejected band'.

The relative mass, density and conductivity of an item, determines how easily it can be influenced by depth or proximity to others. Frequency plays a major roll also.

The T2 and F75's superb rejection of those targets within a selected band, does incur some degree of 'fall-out effect' on items not within that band, which consequently and markedly, restricts their audio reporting.

The detectors doesn't loose 'sensitivity' or depth, but rather becomes more vigorous in 'censorship' of not only the target's identity but also its strength. (Dictated by the product of its mass and conductivity).

So it is this undesirable characteristic of 'incidentally restricting' a 'good' target on the basis of its low strength, whilst the discrimination setting is within a specific range that is the problem.

The thing that is different about these units rejection capabilities, is how ONCE YOU'VE EXCEEDED a specific level of rejection setting, the unit quickly begins to restore virtually normal sensitivity to the non-rejected items and yet resolutely curtails those rejected.

It would appear that these units have a two fold approach to applying their disc. power.

Todays software control is different from 'yesterday's' hardware-only approach. Even so, it is still a dilemma to designers as to how definitively one can apply the theory to an imprecise set of circumstances that are inherent in the real, complex world of detecting in soils.

The above comments do not deny the excellent functionality of these detectors. My experiences with them is reflected in the finds that I've made, and I can honestly say that I have achieved some of the most impressively deep items ever. QED.

Should the day ever come when they manufacture a detector has no need of the owner's ability or reasoning, then the hobby will loose its appeal.............MattR.UK.

















Readers, judge for yourself......MattR.UK.
 
may i ask kind sir... if you could translate for the "great unwashed?"..(b.t.w!)..what do you expect from people who drink "cold" beer!

(h.h!)
j.t...
 
I have read it three times and all I can say is Hu !!!

Ok I re- read it, and got some of it, but I was mostly just messing with you..Interesting post..I hope it works on the higher numbers putting the depth back in.
 
Thats right, a post knowing that there is the IGNORANT like you who can get away with anything unchallenged simply because you are from the UK. You showed this when talking about the F-75, a VLF and mentioning SAMPLE TIME, something only relevant
to the Pulse Induction design. Xenophobic? Are we dealing with extra-terrestrials here-surprised you did not say xenomorph.
The only inadequacy is your REAL [lack of] knowledge of detectors, which is overtly camouflaged by your unending sophist diatribe
every time you try to cover up your inadequacy by by using 100 words to say what could be said with 25, and you still get it wrong.
"local emi and trash preference" no such preference exist; "rejecting unwanted natural rocks", why don't you tell us all about 'unnatural rocks'; "the effects...evident in all T-2 and F-75 modes with one exception, the JE mode". BOLLOCKS! You place the F-75 at 0 to 4 in any mode; or you go to Stat Mode. DO YOU EVEN OWN AN F-75? EVER EVEN TURNED ONE ON? That answer is self evident.
As to GOOD NAMES, there are many from the UK like Brian, or Phil Elkins, Dave Emery, or Eric Foster, however your name is not on that list, but on the one that starts with POTTY; MY ADVICE TO YOU IS TO, TRANSLATE THE ITALIAN PHRASE, "PULL OUT THE CORK!......:punch:
 
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