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Trashy Park
- Thread starter tc8745
- Start date
IDXMonster
Well-known member
Accurate ID in modern trash is indeed what a lot of us need. Again,Minelab has top quality performers,I'm expecting this will be great in that department as well. I'm a guy who waits til it's out and running around though,just to get actual in-field feedback. I've got a CTX that differentiates clad and silver to 9". If it's BETTER than that....then I'll be looking at buying one.
brother steve
Member
How can you match the ctx for have the price. Is it a beeber or can it tell us/
IDXMonster
Well-known member
brother steve said:
Yeah I think what some of us are getting at is....I don't care about the weight,battery seals etc etc the FBS machines are able to tell silver from clad much more reliably than other machines. The fact that the Equinox is half the price had nothing to do with anything if it cannot replicate what FBS does. Now....if one cannot afford a CTX then a used etrac of Explorer2/SE will fit the bill,if you're after deep turf silver. If the Equinox can differentiate between the two...then great! But I'm not going to spend HALF of what a CTX costs to have the Equinox not be able to reliably tell me what I need to know.
They will likely be two very different machines for different purposes....
Tom, very good post. I have tried many detectors in these park settings and most fail the ID accuracy test. FBS detectors are the best I have used when looking for silver buried in modern trash. If this detector has FBS, I will be signing up for one. This might be the most anticipated detector I have seen in my twenty years of detecting.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Gannon said:
^^^ truth, this is significantly irritating me.
saltwater jim
New member
Tom(Conn) said:
If you ever find a machine that can tell aluminum from gold please let me know )
Jason in Enid
Active member
saltwater jim said:
Any company that can produce THAT detector will also be charging about $40K for it simply based on ability and desires of the user. Us old timers used to joke it would cost $10K but we have already crossed that mark with a standard prospecting detector.
I believe they have the technology to tell gold from aluminum right now,,But to build such a machine would disrupt the industry,,They are going to keep throwing machines at us with just a few teasers to keep us buying them every year,,,Same thing with car batteries,,Im sure they can make one to last 25 years,,I dont mind digging the trash to find gold jewerly,But after 25 years it be nice if they would have something by now to at least notch most of the aluminum in the ground and id gold better,,,
IDXMonster
Well-known member
Tom(Conn) said:
It would have to be COMPLETELY new technology,one that did not depend on eddy currents and magnetic returns. There are some things that are only going to get SO good,and Minelab owners,no matter what one you might have,have it GOOD! For the FBS to already do what it does is an absolute miracle all by itself. I hear you though Tom,we can wish!
We can still narrow it down by looking in probable areas and digging those really super stable signals on some of the rings anyway....but till that tech gets here that's all we have.
Aluminum comes in many different forms, shapes, densities, alloys, etc. Gold does too. Even natural gold nuggets all come in different on the ID scale . Nearly impossible with today's tech to differentiate between the two. It would have to be completely different tech. The ultimate tech for us nugget shooters would be a machine that beeps ONLY on gold. No more digging of bullets, casings, hot rocks, etc.
Dean
Dean
sgoss66
Well-known member
I agree with dbado1 and IDXMonster, Tom. It "can't be done," as far as I can possibly imagine, using the types of machines we are using. It would have to be a completely new technology.
In a nutshell, as I understand it, here is how a detector works. A detector's transmit coil transmits an electromagnetic wave (or waves) into the ground. If there is a buried metal object in the ground, this electromagnetic transmission from the machine induces electrical current -- the flow of electrons -- in the buried metal object. The metal object, now that it is "lit up" with electromagnetic radiation and is now experiencing current flow within itself (i.e. "eddy currents,") will then re-transmit its own electromagnetic radiation back TO the detector's receive coil. The "wave properties" of that returned electromagnetic signal from the buried metal object are then measured and processed by the machine's software/algorithms, to assess the "conductivity" of the object, and make some guess -- based on that conductivity -- as to what the object is likely to be. One of the main determinants of what "properties" the returned electromagnetic signal contains (i.e. the target ID info) is largely dependent upon the metal's ability to conduct electricity, as I alluded to -- i.e. a good conductor, with round shape, creates nice, strong eddy currents; meanwhile, an oddly shaped, low-conductive metal produces poor, weak eddy currents. So, consider a round "pull tab ring," and a round gold band of similar size. BOTH are relatively low conductors of electricity (not conductive to producing strong eddy currents), but both have a round shape (which is conducive to producing eddy currents). In the end, the machine "reads" the received radiation generated by these eddy currents. The problem is, there is nothing really inherent in radiation being "read" by the machine that cares if the eddy current was produced by round, low-conductive GOLD, or round, low-conductive ALUMINUM. The machine knows NOTHING of the SPECIFIC TYPE of metal generating the eddy currents, it only knows how efficient the metal object was (or was not) at creating those eddy currents. So, while the fact that a silver dime produces much stronger eddy currents than a shard of thin, jagged aluminum (and thus the machine can exploit those differences to allow us to differentiate between silver dimes and shards of aluminum), there is no way just by reading radiation emanating from eddy currents from similarly shaped, similarly conductive metal objects to determine the elemental make-up of the target.
I have often wondered if there isn't some sort of way to "exploit" the fact that gold is much more DENSE and HEAVY -- i.e. much more "mass" than a similar-sized piece of aluminum. But, that would require some other type of technology to "read," as opposed to simply the properties (amplitude, phase, frequency, decay rate, etc.) of electromagnetic waves.
Steve
In a nutshell, as I understand it, here is how a detector works. A detector's transmit coil transmits an electromagnetic wave (or waves) into the ground. If there is a buried metal object in the ground, this electromagnetic transmission from the machine induces electrical current -- the flow of electrons -- in the buried metal object. The metal object, now that it is "lit up" with electromagnetic radiation and is now experiencing current flow within itself (i.e. "eddy currents,") will then re-transmit its own electromagnetic radiation back TO the detector's receive coil. The "wave properties" of that returned electromagnetic signal from the buried metal object are then measured and processed by the machine's software/algorithms, to assess the "conductivity" of the object, and make some guess -- based on that conductivity -- as to what the object is likely to be. One of the main determinants of what "properties" the returned electromagnetic signal contains (i.e. the target ID info) is largely dependent upon the metal's ability to conduct electricity, as I alluded to -- i.e. a good conductor, with round shape, creates nice, strong eddy currents; meanwhile, an oddly shaped, low-conductive metal produces poor, weak eddy currents. So, consider a round "pull tab ring," and a round gold band of similar size. BOTH are relatively low conductors of electricity (not conductive to producing strong eddy currents), but both have a round shape (which is conducive to producing eddy currents). In the end, the machine "reads" the received radiation generated by these eddy currents. The problem is, there is nothing really inherent in radiation being "read" by the machine that cares if the eddy current was produced by round, low-conductive GOLD, or round, low-conductive ALUMINUM. The machine knows NOTHING of the SPECIFIC TYPE of metal generating the eddy currents, it only knows how efficient the metal object was (or was not) at creating those eddy currents. So, while the fact that a silver dime produces much stronger eddy currents than a shard of thin, jagged aluminum (and thus the machine can exploit those differences to allow us to differentiate between silver dimes and shards of aluminum), there is no way just by reading radiation emanating from eddy currents from similarly shaped, similarly conductive metal objects to determine the elemental make-up of the target.
I have often wondered if there isn't some sort of way to "exploit" the fact that gold is much more DENSE and HEAVY -- i.e. much more "mass" than a similar-sized piece of aluminum. But, that would require some other type of technology to "read," as opposed to simply the properties (amplitude, phase, frequency, decay rate, etc.) of electromagnetic waves.
Steve
Charles (Upstate NY) said:
This is like my old Tesoro Toltec 100. Great spread in the middle of the meter range for separating foil, nickels, tabs, brass tokens and buttons and so forth. But all the coins from Cu penny up were grouped at the end; no separation. My thoughts were that if I'm going to use a meter, I'd like to be able to separate the upper end as well.
Rich -
Hi Guys
It needs technology working on seperating squares, rectangles, triangles, from circles. Then we would have a break through but because manufactures just give you a whisker of advancement each new release i think it will be long time down the track before we get any technology that can get rid of aluminium. You will not get something that can be that far of an advancement ,
If it was able to do to many things why would you need to buy another detector. The manufacturers would be shooting them selves in the foot.
Regards Below2doe.
It needs technology working on seperating squares, rectangles, triangles, from circles. Then we would have a break through but because manufactures just give you a whisker of advancement each new release i think it will be long time down the track before we get any technology that can get rid of aluminium. You will not get something that can be that far of an advancement ,
If it was able to do to many things why would you need to buy another detector. The manufacturers would be shooting them selves in the foot.
Regards Below2doe.
Tom(Conn) said:
Tom, when I read your starting post, I assumed you meant for deep-silver. Because when someone depicts a junky park like you described (riddled with aluminum), they are often cherry picking (kiss small gold rings and nickels good-bye).
But if you meant it in-the-sense of telling aluminum apart from gold, then I'm going to have to agree with IDX-monster: No, they do not "have the technology to tell aluminum apart from gold ". There's no conspiracy as the reason we're not seeing it, blah blah.
As long as detectors keep ID'ing based on conductivity (as they have since the earliest discriminators were invented), then I'm sorry to say that .... On a size-by-size basis: That alloyed gold and aluminum share the same conductivity.
A machine that can do it was invented by Westinghouse for the military. For purposes of detecting contaminants or explosives, etc.... It was mounted on a bobcat tractor and cost millions. The users had to wear lead suits, and everyone within 100's of yards around had to be vacated. That was ~25 yrs. ago when I talked to the engineer who worked on that project.
below2doe said:
Are you referring to something that shows shape, right ? Like GPR, yet only smaller pixels ? Not gonna happen
Current pixel sizs = 1" to 2" across. Hence everything we find is ... doh .... 1 pixel. And even if it ever got refined to 100x smaller, you'd STILL only see nothing but "a messy blotch of pixels" (not some magical TV image of a ring). And don't forget: The minute you add ANY degree of tilt, shape means nothing now.
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
dbado1 said:
They have detectors that can ID gold only, but they have to be in direct physical contact with the target. If whatever information they are gathering via direct contact can be gathered without direct contact then bingo!
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
On the other hand, using your brain to ID gold via tones. Machine dependent, quality of tones is required and quality of headphones also is a factor. There was a time I was digging a lot of gold quite frequently on salt water beaches. If you can do that, gold, foil, foil, tab, gold, tab, nickel, tab, gold in a short period of time your brain starts to pick up on things. Compared to foil, tabs, nickels, to my ear gold sounds smooth, buttery, vs the other targets which are not smooth. If you dig enough gold in a short period of time you can start calling your shots on gold with some degree of accuracy. Its not foolproof though, thin gold bands about the thickness of a ring off a ring tab they sound pretty much identical. Thicker gold bands are easier. Platinum wow a whole other world, very unique sound though a stainless steel washer will try to head fake you.