Three Questions

[Cliff KS]

I sent an e-mail to Tesoro about a year and a half ago, asking the following 3 questions and never got a reply. Perhaps some of you could provide the answers to some of them (1st and 3rd anyway):

I am considering purchasing a Tesoro and have some questions. I have always had a detector with manual ground balance. On your models with factory pre-set GB, where on the scale does the pre-set value lie (numerical value)?

I have read a lot of good things about your High Output Technology models on the various forums, but I have always had a multi-tone machine and don't know if I would like one without it. Do you plan to produce a multi-tone machine with the HOT electronics?

I mainly hunt old farmsteads for old coins and have to deal with quit a bit of iron, but not many pulltabs or screw caps. Of your current models, which one would you recommend for that type of hunting: coin hunting, handles iron well, depth important, and easy to achieve stability?

Since then, I tried a Cibola, then traded it for a Silver Sabre uMax, but mainly find myself using my multi-tone machines. Does anyone think we'll see a HOT model with multi-tones in 2009, or any new Tesoro in 2009? When is the last time they produce a new model? 2007?

 

[tab-nabit]

Sometimes sending an email may or may not work. May have to send again or why not make a phone call. I had to sent an email 2 times to get a reply to get the latest MDI print.

If your hunting old farmsteads and your used to manual ground balance, why not stick to a manual ground balance machine. I'm not understanding your question on where a preset ground balance indicates on a scale. If it's preset, i.e. Cibola, there is no scale to indicate your ground balance setting. Now on a machine like my Tejon, I need no scale. I just set it where it (or I) need it for effective operation. Actually I don't think it has a scale, I just thumb it to where it needs to be.

I think each individual person can answer if they would like or not like a single tone machine. I like them myself. The audio of that single tone provides plenty of information which more becomes obvious as one gets used to it. And I have multi-tone machines as well that I use, but not in the Tesoro line.

I don't know about multi tone HOT machines. Who knows what Tesoro is up to - I wish I knew though.

You mention you tried the Cibola, then traded for the Silver Sabre uMax, but find your using the multi-tone machines. I don't know how much time you put into it, maybe enough, maybe not enough for a single tone machine, but each is different in preferences and sounds like your sold to staying with multi-tone. Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. Like I say, I use both and take advantage of both. I find it difficult using a display screen to determine a dig - well, I don't rely on them. I hunt audio.

I couldn't say with my models which "ONE" I would recommend as I usually take 2 or more machines along. And although if I do good in a spot, I'll hit it at different angles under different conditions, and may hit it with different machines. I have a spot I been at on & off for years with several machines. Don't find much anymore but sometimes hit finds I somehow missed. I look for change also, like trees going down, creek flood, brush fire etc. It sounds like depth is really important at your homesteads. Most of my hunts the real deep seekers are not the main factor, yes I look for it if the targets are really deep but a machine that can maybe hit 7 inches is more that adequate in many of the soils I work. Heck, one spot I don't recall getting any silver 4 or more inches. All were less.

If I find old coins at homesteads, I'd also be looking for anything old worth digging. And if you don't find many pull-tabs and screw caps, (man I wish I could saw that), then I wouldn't know how to act. I'd go all out all metal.

I wonder too if Tesoro will hit the market in 09 on something new and/or improved. If they do, I hope it's another good'n

 

[sqwaby]

I have a vaquero and I can tell you that Iron even when disc'd out still comes through if its a big enough piece. Sometimes I can tell from how the signal acts what it is, but not always.

 

[Cliff KS]

Thanks for your answers guys. What I meant by the GB scale is if it did have a scale, say a 0-10 scale like some manual set machines, would their pre-set machines be at 4 or 5 or 5.5 or what? I was just wondering how close it would be to where my manual setting usally comes out to in my area.

 

[JB(MS)]

George Payne discovered the phase shift principle that allows ground balance and discrimination, and designed the first detectors that had those capabilities. He said he initially opposed designing a motion detector with preset ground balance because he knew it was, in some ways, a trick that fooled the customer into believing no ground balance needed. Below is what he said about preset ground balance.

Most ground conditions produce a phase that falls somewhere between zero (ferrite) and -5 degrees. Some highly magnetic soils can have a phase that is quite low, but it can never be zero.

In a preset ground balanced detector design the ground adjust control phase is set to approximately +0.5 degrees, and the audio threshold is set for silent operation. With those settings the detector will appear not to respond to the ground, but it actually is responding. Its just that you don't hear it since all ground reactions cause the audio to decrease in volume and since the audio is already silent you don't hear anything. Since real targets, which includes the ground, have a phase between zero and some negative value the preset ground control phase of +0.5 degrees is in a location where no real targets ever exist. Therefore you never have a condition where you are balanced to anything, least of all the ground. As you move the coil over the ground, the internal detector signals are continually being driven negative. Any weak positive target signal is easily over-ridden by the huge negative ground signal. Of course, if the target is close enough to the coil its positive signal can override the negative ground signal and you will hear the reaction in the audio. The greater the phase and strength of the negative ground signal the more the ground will mask the positive target signals. A manual ground balance design would avoid this since the operator can adjust the control for a near neutral reaction on the ground.

For fixed ground balanced detector the phase error between the internal ground preset balance and the actual ground condition can be much more than slight. The internal preset of +0.5 degrees is in an area where a real ground phase never occurs. The actual ground phase may be -2 or -3 degrees negative. That's a huge difference, maybe 2.5 to 3.5 degrees, and depending on the level of ground mineralization that much phase error can, and in most cases does, result in the loss of significant detection depth.

No way would I argue with George, but I've found that preset ground balance can work well if the mineralization level is consistent and the balance is adjusted correctly for those conditions. That's the case here, the ground is virtually mineral free and very consistent, but anyone hunting areas with varying levels of mineralization is losing performance and depth if using a preset ground balanced detector.

 

[tab-nabit]

I really don't know how to answer that one, but I prefer a manual ground balance machine in most cases as it was what I'm used to after years of using it. After so much it becomes habit and natural. I still continue to raise and lower a coil on a preset machine as I go along then catch myself "oh yeah - no manual ground balance knob" as I want to thumb a knob - habit I guess.
Keep in mind some manual ground balance have multi-turn pots. I have had 10 turn stacked pots on gold machines. There is no scale. May be a (+) and (-) which is a moot point just meaning more or less.
Where the factory sets them in relation to a scale is something I wouldn't know. I would guess they set them for the most optimum they can get it for overall average as they can for a somewhat usable setting across the board for such a range of conditions.
As far as preset - machines can have the preset reset either by the factory, or as you can find in some post's where fellas tweak on a circuit board pot to change the preset ground balance setting. But then I would think if the factory does this, well it would remain preset at that point which may be better overall for your area, but how much does the soil conditions change in the areas you hunt.
You can also find where some have done a mod on a preset machine - add a pot for manual ground balance.
But back to your question, on a scale, I wouldn't know myself.
Oh man, hope I got enough go juice in me to make sense, better go get another cup - lol

 

[tab-nabit]

No there's some reading that deserves another cup - BRB

Hence the manual ground balance and threshold base.

Thanks JB

 

[Cliff KS]

Yes! Good info. Thanks JB!

 

[Cliff KS]

The soil in my area does not vary that much, but I was wondering if most pres-set machines might come close to a manual GB
where I hunt or be positive or negative in relation to local soils and by how much. Usually, a manual GB in this area will come in at the 5 to 5.5 range or no higher than 5.8

 

[tabdog]

Thanks a lot for that JB.

I learned about manual ground balance and threshold
based AM after 6 different per-set machines.

I could not figure out why some places I could find deep
targets and other places, I couldn't find diddly.

Sense I have discovered MGB, I have ventured into the
most hideous conditions.

I can find a way to get some depth, even if I gotta put up
with a lot of static out of my machines. At least I can find
something in places that are more or less ignored by others.
Or at least, they didn't find much when they were. I say
that because I don't think there are many around here who
really know how to get more out of their machines.

Anyway, I appreciate that info. It helps my understanding of
what's goin on

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

 

[Sven]

with the Garrett Master Hunters.

We would have a spot, incredibly noisy almost impossible to hunt.
Adjust the GB negative or positive, turn down the threshold to silent and turn down the sensitivity.

We got all the shallow coins 1-4" that way. Others would shake their head and walk away to detect someplace else.

 

[tabdog]

Thanks for tha info Seven,

Un-conventional conditions may call for un-conventional methods.

I found a crushed gravel parking area. Tha gravel was impossible
to hunt by normal methods of adjustment.

I found that if I laid a nickle on tha gravel and adjusted tha GB and
tha sens while waving tha coil over tha nickle, I could actually find
a setting where I could get 4" or so of depth.

That was enough to find a some goodies that a few young women
had parted ways with.

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog