https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.4715826/hadrian-s-wall-under-siege-by-thieves-wielding-metal-detectors-1.4716687
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Thieves With Metal Detectors Give All Of Us A Bad Reputation:punch:
- Thread starter John-Edmonton
- Start date
Willee - Texas
Well-known member
We take our freedoms for granted here in the USA ... in other countries (if it is permitted at all) you need a license or permit and must follow very strict rules.
Here we have much more freedom about using metal detectors and recovering lost items.
If you do not own the property all you need is the owners permission to go and detect.
Public property like school yards and parks are for the most part open ... a few are not but are usually posted as such.
Of course federally protected lands are off limits without special permission (like battle grounds and national sea shores).
Here in Texas there are miles and miles of gulf beach to hunt but once you get onto the Padre Island national sea shore you need to put your detector up or suffer harsh punishment if caught. Why ... I dont know but those are the rules until they are changed.
Here we have much more freedom about using metal detectors and recovering lost items.
If you do not own the property all you need is the owners permission to go and detect.
Public property like school yards and parks are for the most part open ... a few are not but are usually posted as such.
Of course federally protected lands are off limits without special permission (like battle grounds and national sea shores).
Here in Texas there are miles and miles of gulf beach to hunt but once you get onto the Padre Island national sea shore you need to put your detector up or suffer harsh punishment if caught. Why ... I dont know but those are the rules until they are changed.
Two things to say about this :
1) The article's content was heavily influenced by archaeological input. Ie.: they're quoting from archies, who would, of course, have been consulted about this. And gee, WHAT DID YOU EXPECT to come from an archie's mouth ?? In their mind's eyes, we're "thieves" NO MATTER WHERE we hunt. And ... sheesk ... what's wrong with "selling things for profit" (as if that makes an action/activity horrible ?) So I put very little stock into what some archies say. Sorry.
2) Durned those md'rs that didn't cover their holes better. If you leave no trace of your presence, then articles such-as-this wouldn't be showing up in the first place.
1) The article's content was heavily influenced by archaeological input. Ie.: they're quoting from archies, who would, of course, have been consulted about this. And gee, WHAT DID YOU EXPECT to come from an archie's mouth ?? In their mind's eyes, we're "thieves" NO MATTER WHERE we hunt. And ... sheesk ... what's wrong with "selling things for profit" (as if that makes an action/activity horrible ?) So I put very little stock into what some archies say. Sorry.
2) Durned those md'rs that didn't cover their holes better. If you leave no trace of your presence, then articles such-as-this wouldn't be showing up in the first place.
MarkCZ
Well-known member
What got me was as I read it is was like the wall was being taking apart, then towards the end of the read its really just holes in the ground in the area of the wall! poorly dug holes with shovels of course, I know its posted property
and this makes the people who did this thieves!
and this makes the people who did this thieves!
MarkCZ said:
Yes. Purist archies (who were consulted for comment in the story) will use vocabulary that leads the reader to believe that utter mayhem (destruction of buildings, walls, etc...) was going on.
As far as "thieves" : Don't forget: To a purist archie , we are "thieves" NO MATTER WHERE we hunt. I've even read one purist archie's blog, who is insistent that to detect on ANY public land is a crime . And that if any private citizen takes up a detector, they should only-do-so under archaeological rigor. Hence: I put little stock into how some archies characterize us. Eg.: Everything said there of the grass next to that wall, some of them would even say for any park or school, that aren't even sensitive monuments.
Academia has a strong socialist bent that allows the elitists to believe there is a double standard where property is assumed to be an asset of the governing and the rights of individuals are actually an enemy to community good. Better to lose it forever or see it rot in the ground than fall into the hands of a private citizen. Most of what they recover will live out its live in a box in a basement and 99.99999999% are meaningless in historical terms, but you'd think they were scraps of the dead sea scrolls in their thinking.
Absolute power corrupts much like a Ph.D effects an ego. IMHO
Another Tom in CA
Absolute power corrupts much like a Ph.D effects an ego. IMHO
Another Tom in CA
doc holiday232
New member
My President,like the Roman King, wants to build a wall--reckon the archies will want to protect it??
The elitist Archies all are concerned about their government paid 'digs'. If the average detectorists was allowed to roam freely over state parks and historical sites with some sort of reward for their efforts a huge amount of historically significant things might be revealed! But NO, the archies might not get a paid 'dig' where they get to write their 'papers' and go on book tours and attend conventions where they are the featured speaker! A bunch of arrogant leaches on society protecting their government subsidies!
jas415 said:
As much as I agree with you on your disdain for purist archies ..... I have to take exception with some of what you've written.
The ".... with some sort of reward for their efforts..." sounds like you are appealing to the UK-British method/system. Right ?
But the devil is in the details : The stuff "being declared to the queen" over there, and hence/thus put in museums, appreciated, etc..... is FOUND ON PRIVATE LAND. I mean, go figure : 99.99% of the finds/hunts in Britain are done in farmers fields. NOT "public parks", forests, beaches, etc.... Trust me: Their sensitive monuments, protected parks, etc... are exactly like ours over here: Off-limits. And yes, I agree with you on silly laws protecting "middle of nowhere" in the deserts & forests. But when it comes to obvious historic sensitive monuments (Shiloh, Ghettysburg, Bodie, etc....) then .... seriously now .... do you think you're going to win the debate ? Of course not.
The problem is that EVEN IF the md'r "turned in his finds" (like the UK system) and was "rewarded for his efforts", there's a BIG problem: The md'rs methods are as follows: He hears a beep, he stoops down, he digs, he says "oh cool, look at this old coin". But for the archie it's a much more rigorous process: They dig with tweezers and brushes. They write a 5 page report on every nail or bullet shell they find . Eg.: The depth it was at. The relationship trajectory placement between that and and adjacent ashes/charcoal. The GPS, blah blah blah. In other words, they do 100 page reports , and spend all summer long on a single 10' x 10' pit, to get "context". But for the md'r, we just "rip items from context". (yes, I know, you're feeling racked with guilt right now, right ?)
The UK system is born out of the fact that all items under the soil belong to the queen. So if you discover oil on your land, it's not like the Beverly hillbillies where you get rich. Instead, the crown owns it.
If anyone went down the path of suggesting opening up off-limits federal lands (national parks, etc...) to md'ing, with the idea of "turning over items of interest", I guarantee you that you would only open up a can of worms. Archies would shriek in horror. Anything suggested would be RIDDLED with silly junk and gotchas. You would end up regretting even making yourself an object of their attention.
And while I agree with you on your disdain for purist archies, I'm just telling you that there is a purist archie in top advisory positions of any state park park's system, any federal parks system, etc.... And THE LESS THEY THINK OF US, THE BETTER.
I don't disagree that the private sector digger/collectors have probably done more to document, study, and preserve history than the purist sector. But just telling you, that when push comes to shove, and if this ever went before any bureaucracy for a decision, the private sector md'ing people would be branded/colored as guys who just go out, hear a beep, dig, and say "cool look at this".
And in the USA, you can dig on private farmer's lands till your arm's fall off, with utterly no need to talk to any bureaucrat. Purist archies can go pound sand when/if you find stuff on private land. So nothing you gleen from the British system applies to here.
While I see some good elements in the British system, it is un-American at its core. May we never succumb to foreign standards of law and negate the human dignity of our founding principles. Neither an election or an academic degree make anyone superior to another or above the law.
W
woody
Guest
Right on Tom. I asked this question about 3 years ago. It's a simple question that had nothing to do with me yet I was accused of grave robbing. The question is: How old (or new) does a grave have to be before it is considered grave robbing or an archeological dig? Who sets the rule so that an archie can dig up a grave? Whether the grave is 2 year old or 2,000 years old should not make any difference. All in the name of science and history? Not to me, but my 10 cents doesn't amount to much.
Sweeping-4-junk
New member
The wall has been night hawked for many years. Nothing new ..
doc holiday232
New member
The "archies" have the Best collections--just get to know one of the legal thieves and see for yourself. Most are DimoRats.
"Legal thieves" eh ? And JUST as how their actions haven't harmed anyone , so too do I believe that my/our actions haven't harmed anyone either.
I dunno why, but .... if you or I snatched a wristwatch or dollar off someone's bedside night-stand, we would KNOW (intuitively) that that's just downright *wrong*. But , on the other hand, if you or I find something in a cow pasture or field somewhere, that's unknown, that it is simply and clearly in a different class. It's almost as if it didn't exist
I know the archie's push-back line will be the following: "Perhaps no one NOW knows of that object. However: 1000 yrs. from now, how do you know a future archaeologist might not dig a pit IN THAT EXACT LOCATION. And you would have ruined it, by " ripping the item out of context" "
Yes, I know your conscience is racked with guilt now. But not to worry: Box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt
I dunno why, but .... if you or I snatched a wristwatch or dollar off someone's bedside night-stand, we would KNOW (intuitively) that that's just downright *wrong*. But , on the other hand, if you or I find something in a cow pasture or field somewhere, that's unknown, that it is simply and clearly in a different class. It's almost as if it didn't exist
I know the archie's push-back line will be the following: "Perhaps no one NOW knows of that object. However: 1000 yrs. from now, how do you know a future archaeologist might not dig a pit IN THAT EXACT LOCATION. And you would have ruined it, by " ripping the item out of context" "
Yes, I know your conscience is racked with guilt now. But not to worry: Box up all your stuff and send it to me. I will absolve your conscience of all guilt
stoneshirt said:
Ken: You really think "no one cares what you do" in Columbia ? I'll be the Debbie-downer kill-joy to challenge that : Let's test your theory: Go down to the the governmental offices (county or state or federal offices) that administer whatever land it is, that you routinely hunt with no problem (ie.: "no one cares"). Ask around, desk to desk, bureaucrat to bureaucrat , archie-to-archie, asking each of them: "Hi, can I metal detect at such & such location ?" Be sure to use words like "dig" and "treasure" and "artifact" and "resources".
And I'll bet you dollars to donuts, that you can eventually find someone to say "No".
Hence ... how can you say "No one cares " ?
Ok, now hurry. Go do the right thing
You're the one that said "No one cares". And I agree with you, that THAT is the "test of reality".
The reason I brought this up, is that , on other threads, there has been someone to fetch a "no" at various places. And if someone tried to tell them "no one cares" (Ie.: you got a bored bureaucrat pencil pusher "safe" answer), the skittish person will do JUST WHAT I PARODY HERE : They'll say : "What do you mean no one cares ? Didn't you see the answer from the desk jockey ? Hence : Someone "cares" " Doh!
The reason I brought this up, is that , on other threads, there has been someone to fetch a "no" at various places. And if someone tried to tell them "no one cares" (Ie.: you got a bored bureaucrat pencil pusher "safe" answer), the skittish person will do JUST WHAT I PARODY HERE : They'll say : "What do you mean no one cares ? Didn't you see the answer from the desk jockey ? Hence : Someone "cares" " Doh!
S
stoneshirt
Guest
Speaking more, of the General Public,Tom.
stoneshirt.
stoneshirt.
