Sven, I am sure you know this, but to help others who use the smaller-packaged Tesoro models, please let me add a little conversational help.
Sven's model is pronounced Bandido Two microMAX. The little symbol before 'MAX' is a
µ which was an electronic term for 'micro.' It is not a
u as in the letter we pronounce 'you.' If you don't want to cut-and-paste the symbol when typing, you can do this. If you have a computer with the little numeric keyboard on the right side, just hold down the 'ALT' button and type 230 then release the ALT tab to type MAX. The result with be µMAX. While we SEE the reference displayed as µMAX, we should be pronouncing that as 'microMAX' and not 'youMAX.'
Jack Gifford, the Tesoro founder and design engineer who decided to use this tricky little reference, tried to get the word out in his catalogs and MDI for folks to learn and say 'microMAX' but it is actually kind of irritating that people like a product and use it, but can't pronounce it correctly when they say youMAX. If my comment correction bugs anyone, I'm sorry, but out of all the metal detector name and control labels folks mess up, this one is the most irritating to be said incorrectly.
I have both read peoples messages or heard them publicly mistake things like.:
All Medal instead of All Metal
Discernation instead of Discrimination
Saying 'Tay-Jon- instead of Tejón ('Tay-hOne').
Saying Ban-DAY-Doe instead of Bandido (Ban-DE-doe).
And many other things, to include saying you-MAX (uMAX) instead of saying micro-MAX (µMAX).
Not only do some people have difficulty with spelling and pronunciation, they can have even greater difficulty trying to learn what metal detector functions really are and how they inter-relate with some controls, or even what they can and can't do afield. One of the more interesting topics of discussion relates to Ground Balance, especially with reference to both the Threshold-based All Metal mode as well as the motion-based Discriminate mode. This is even more challenging when the Disc. mode functions in a 'silent search' fashion as opposed to using an audio Threshold level setting.
Sven said:
Had the newly acquired Bandido out for some back yard testing.
Have to admit it got much better depth on some freshly buried coins than the Eldorado I had a few years ago.
Congrats on obtaining a good Bandido II µMAX. This model is one of my all-time favorite Tesoro detectors.
As for the sensed differences in perceived depth of detection with an Eldorado you had before, I take it you had the latter µMAX version Eldorado and not the older 'original' Tesoro Eldorado? It's really difficult to compare differences because they were not checked side-by-side on the same freshly planted coin. Also, they were not using the same search coil for the test, which they could have swapped the coil if tested side-by-side.
Your statement is a bit of a surprise because I have owned several µMAX version Eldorado units and preferred them to the Bandido II µMAX models [size=small](which I usually had at the time)[/size]
for certain in-the-field applications. The Eldorado has the ED-180 Discrimination range so it can accept down to Zero rejection while the Bandido II µMAX has the ED-120 Discrimination, which means that at the minimum Disc. setting it is still a little above iron nail rejection.
I used the Eldorado µMAX in the Zero Disc. setting especially on the very mineralized fresh water river beaches around the Portland, Oregon area. I liked the tock 8X9 Concentric coils for that for coverage, and because the Eldorado produced better depth-of-detection than the Bandido II µMAX or many other Tesoro models I had. Matter of fact, in some tough mineralized challenge I used in my seminars and demonstrations, I had a couple of Eldorado's that gave me better total depth in really bad ground or with the coil lifted over the mineralized 'Homestead Rock' I used than I could get from three Tejóns, also using their 8X9 Concentric search coil.
When hunting ghost towns and other out-of-the-way abandoned old sites, I used the Eldorado on occasion, but they didn't reject iron nails as cleanly as the Bandido II µMAX, and even it was a bit noisier than the original Bandido or Bandido II or Silver Sabre II or Pantera, or other earlier circuitry designs. But that is why I like to own more than one detector, so as to have a bit more versatility while still having a selection that works a little better for certain hunt site applications. Matter of fact, I am even trying to locate a clean, as-new Tesoro Eldorado and Silver Sabre µMAX right now for my personal detector arsenal.
Sven said:
It loves Canadian clad coins, even on edge they sound like they are lying flat at the same depth.
Some models do a little better on the newer versions of many Canadian coins, but that's a combination of where you set the Discrimination [size=small](better performance if it is set lower)[/size] as well as the fact that many newer Canadian coins have been made out of 100% nickel or steel, and ferrous-based targets have a different effect on an electro-magnetic field [size=small](EMF)[/size] than do non-ferrous metals.
Sven said:
One thing I did notice manual GB if neutral in all metal mode does wing a bit positive in disc mode.
Yes, and that is due to the Tesoro circuitry design of many/most of their detectors. By design, the Discriminate mode of many models has a positive 'off-set' to the All Metal mode GB setting, be it an internal trimmer adjustment or an external manual GB control.
Sven said:
So if I thumb the GB knob negative almost 1/4 turn, runs smoother and gets better depth in disc mode.
Yes, reducing the Ground Balance setting in the Threshold-based All Metal mode of the Bandido II µMAX,
and many/most Tesoro models, can help improve the silent-search Discriminate mode performance. That's because the Disc. mode's off-set makes it quite positive. Reducing the GB setting to help the Discriminate mode be set close to a 'neutral' GB setting [size=small](for the Disc. mode)[/size] also results in a reduction of the GB setting for the Threshold-based All Metal mode below the "neutral" or "spot-on" GB setting. Thus, the All Metal and Pinpoint functions are now negatively Ground Balanced so we have to remember that when we switch into 'Pinpoint' from the Discriminate mode.
Sven said:
Should have gotten one of these years ago........................
Yep, but it's good you have one in your arsenal now.
Canewrap said:
Sven said:
"So if I thumb the GB knob negative almost 1/4 turn, runs smoother and gets better depth in disc mode."
Funny, I've noticed that my Tejon does the same thing. Must be something about the way that Tesoro tunes their machines.
It's not really their 'tuning' but their circuitry design. Not all models, but many of them have the Discriminate mode GB reference 'off-set' more positive than the Threshold-based All Metal mode's GB setting. If the All Metal mode Ground Balance setting is a bit too positive, the Discriminate mode's GB reference is much too positive and you will start to lose response from higher-conductive targets, such as US Silver Dollars and that can progress down the scale to include Silver Halves and even Quarters,
IF the Ground Balance is set
TOO positive.
This is why I only Ground Balance in the All Metal mode with any Tesoro when I plan to be searching in the All Metal mode. Due to the fact that most of us search in the motion-based Discriminate mode, and because I prefer to own Tesoro's with external Manual Ground Balance, I adjust the Ground Balance when in the silent-search Discriminate mode. How is that achieved in a silent-search operation? By using a technique I call
'Power Balance.' I coined that term for this method of adjustment over 35 years ago, and I can 'Power Balance' with a Threshold-based Discriminate mode detector as well. My goal is simply to enjoy using any search mode at its peak performance.
pulltaber said:
I love mine too.I have not noticed that about the GB going positive in disc mode,I always set mine neutral runs smooth has plenty of depth runs quite in nails and loves gold rings.but I will set it a little negative an give it try
You probably won't "notice" the GB in the Discriminate mode going positive because you are controlling the GB using the All Metal mode. In the All Metal mode you say you set yours "neutral" or "spot-on" so there's little or no change in the Threshold hum as the coil is lowered from about 6" towards the ground.
If that's the case, then you have adjusted your Tesoro to be on-the-mark in the All Metal mode, but [size=small](depending upon the particular model you are referring to)[/size] the Discriminate mode with many Tesoro models was designed in circuitry to have a somewhat positive off-set to that GB setting. Thus, it's not a negative GB so there shouldn't be any falsing from that and it will run smoothly.
Depending upon how positive the off-set is, and also the amount and intensity of iron ground mineralization you might have, it might appear to work okay and provide functional depth. However, and I demonstrate this in seminars, you will find times when adjusting the Discriminate mode Ground Balance to be just very slightly positive [size=small](or no longer negative)[/size], you will usually get just slightly improved depth-of-detection in the Disc. mode. Setting that GB is best performed in the silent-search Discriminate mode using a method I named "
Power Balancing."
As for it running quiet in iron nails, that is usually more a reference to the Discrimination setting, although some problems can occur with a too errant Ground Balance setting. But even here you can run into troubles depending upon which Tesoro model you are using because, trust me, they have not all been made the same. Sometimes, you can adjust only the Discrimination control yet also see a dramatic shift in the Ground Balance setting!
Two models with this glitch in circuitry design are the Sidewinder µMAX and 'original' Conquistador, both of which happen to use an internally set Ground Balance trimmer. There is no external GB control so the operator is unable to make any in-the-field corrections to the GB setting, and even then I am certain there would be changes made the other direction as well. Let's say you have one of these two models [size=small](and I would think there could be one or two or more Tesoro models with this problem in design)[/size] and you want to adjust the internal GB trimmer so the detector is balanced 'spot-on' or 'neutral' for your ground.
You would locate over some metal-free ground to adjust the GB trimmer, then adjust to hear a slight audio Threshold hum, open the control housing, and make a delicate adjustment to the dinky trimmer while briskly bobbing the search coil from about 6" down to about ½" from the ground. Once you achieve this nice-and proper adjustment using either a Threshold-based All Metal or Pinpoint mode, you consider the detector to be functionally Ground Balanced. You carefully close up the housing and screw it back in place and check to make sure it is still properly set [size=small](which can sometimes be off a little due to the compression and repositioning of all the tightly packed wires and circuitry cramped in the small housing)[/size].
Here's the problem with those two models and likely some others with an errant design. Let's say you had been searching a very trashy site and you don't like pull tabs in such a dense abundance, so you had the Discrimination control set right about mid-point so as to reject most pull-tabs. Or maybe you just bumped the Discrimination control, or really, you were not concerned about the Discrimination control because you can change it and set it where you want it for any particular site. In this instance you were only adjusting an internal trimmer to set the Ground Balance.
Okay, so if you now check the detector, all reassembled and ready-to-go, over that same bare, metal-free area of dirt without making any changes, you can switch to All Metal or just use a Pinpoint selection and raise and lower the search coil from 6" to and away from the ground. Little if any change so you did a great job adjusting the internal GB trimmer. Good job on your part! You can now toggle back into the silent-search Discriminate mode and briskly bob the coil over that same spot of ground it it's likely to remain nice and quiet.
Now, without moving away from this nice spot of ground, reduce the Discrimination control from that mid-point setting to the minimum Disc. setting and check it all over again. What? That's nutty! In the All Metal or Pinpoint function, it will usually drop off and null out of go silent as the search coil is lowered from 6" toward the ground and that would alert you to a
negative GB setting. So you briskly bob the search coil at minimum Disc. and quite likely you'll hear a false audio 'beep' as the coil is lifted away from the ground, also signifying it has a
negative GB setting.
So to double check you then adjust only the Discrimination level to the maximum Disc. level. On most Tesoro's a full Disc. setting will just reject screw caps and modern Zinc cents or most Indian Head cents and many early Wheat-back cents from '09 to about 1920 or so. But no it won't false when you bob the search coil and lift it away from the ground. Usually it will stay in its silent-search condition. But all you adjusted was the Discrimination control and it has not adjusted the Ground Balance to a
positive GB setting.
How positive is it? Switch to a Threshold-based All Metal or Pinpoint mode with the coil held at 6" then lower it towards the ground. Most often you will hear it abruptly increase because it is very positive. Just how positive is it now? Maybe you could check the Discriminate mode using a US Quarter, Half or even a big Silver Dollar coin. If the GB is now too positive, you will note some reduction in depth-of-detection, and possibly even the loss of response from a big Silver Dollar or even Halves or Quarters! Not your fault, it was a bad job by them in the circuitry design.
pulltaber said:
I usually keep the seven inch DD coil on, would that make difference in GB pos or neg in the disc mode?
I keep a 7" Concentric mounted on my Bandido II µMAX, preferring the better depth it provides over a Double-D [size=small](Wide-Scan)[/size] coil, as well as better handling of Discrimination, especially ferrous-based trash. There can be a little difference in a GB setting between the two search coil types, but if you have a manually Ground Balanced Tesoro model, without any design glitches, you can adjust the GB in the search mode you plan to use.
If I plan to cover a more open area in the Threshold All Metal mode, then I am going to try and adjust the GB for as close to a 'spot-on' Ground Balance as I can. If anything, I will adjust it to be just
very slightly positive instead of negative. If I am going to search in the motion-based Discriminate mode, then I
'Power Balance' and adjust the GB in the Disc. mode for peak performance. That's why I prefer to own and use models that provide me either a good automated GB or manual GB rather than a factory [size=small](internally)[/size] pre-set GB so that I have control of the adjustments.
Dirtdigger33 said:
I just got out with the bandido II Umax the other day. It also hits hard on nickels which I love to find. I found one yesterday in my front yard with the bandido and brought my total change taken out of my yard to just under a dollar in the last 2 hunts. Just bought the house this year and can't wait to try all my Tesoros hunting the yard. I can't wait to really use my bandido II Umax and Eldorado Umax this next year. Enjoy your new treasure huntin tool. Now I want to find an old Tesoro piranha or pantera detector or get a Deleon. If I could I would have a room full of Tesoros. I can't stop at just one. Good luck and happy hunting.
Yes, I really enjoy the way most Tesoro models hit on 'nickels' [size=small](US 5¢ coins for foreign readers, not a description of the metal used to make them as most were 75% copper and only 25% nickel)[/size], and equally well on low-conductive gold jewelry.
If you have a Bandido II µMAX as well as an Eldorado µMAX, my suggestion would be to just get out and enjoy using them. Those two models will provide as much, or more, in-the-field performance than you will get from a Pantera or DeLeón. Use the $$$ for fuel to go do research on older sites to hunt as well as fuel to get you out to more exciting locations. It's easy to get over-loaded with detectors. I know because I have been there ... often.
Now all that I need to do is find a spiffy clean Eldorado µMAX as well as a 5¾" Concentric coil to go with it and the stock 8X9 and I'll have my own Tesoro bases covered.
There is no such thing as a 'perfect' metal detector, so I like to own several, not too many, just enough to help me hunt a variety of sites and conditions. My MXT All-Pro, MX5, Classic ID and Bandido II µMAX are always loaded in my van and ready-to-go, and there's room for one more and it just might be a nice Eldorado.
Sorry to ramble but I know many readers are newer to Tesoro or just haven't learned what their detectors can and can't do. If you're close to Portland, Oregon on Saturday November 8th you can bring your detector or just join in on a day-long seminar we are hosting. Come join us. In the mean time, let's all get out and put our Tesoro's to work as the clocks are going to be set back tomorrow night and wintry weather has just around the corner.
Monte
