I have an MXT and really like it. I have been researching the Garrett AT-PRO as a second detector. One of the features there proud of is the sweep speed, 4 feet per second. This got me to thinking, Is there such a thing as to slow a speed? I get that if you sweep to fast the machine could skip right over something without reading but what happens if a guy sweeps slow. I have 2 feet of snow in my yard or I would find out myself. Thanks for any input you may have. Greg
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Sweep speed?
- Thread starter gregp
- Start date
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
To take Nancys answer a little further......
Swing speed can and should be adjusted to your personal preferences, ground conditions and the amount of trash that you are hunting in. The MXT and many other detectors are considered fast sweep detectors. Theoretically, the faster you swing the coil, the deeper it will detect a change in the ground matrix, (a target). This can be proven by swinging a coin over your coil (air testing), slowly and then faster. The problem with swinging wildly is that the faster you swing, the less ability a detector has separating a good target from bad ones and deep good targets sound trashy. After many hours of detecting, you will naturally develop a swing speed that is comfortable for you yet get good depth and separation from how much trash is mixed in with the good targets. Swing too slow, you lose depth, too fast, you lose separation. The more trash in the ground, the slower you should swing the coil because separation is more important than depth. If the trash is real bad a smaller coil will help with the separation and allows you to quicken the swing a little.
This is why we use the "wiggle" over a suspected deep target. By wiggling the coil over the target, #1, it isolates the suspected target from nearby trash and #2, allows you to quicken the speed of the coil going over the target for a better audio and visual ID. If the audio sounds better when wiggling, it is likely a good target and if the signal gets worse, it is most likely trash.
Swing speed can and should be adjusted to your personal preferences, ground conditions and the amount of trash that you are hunting in. The MXT and many other detectors are considered fast sweep detectors. Theoretically, the faster you swing the coil, the deeper it will detect a change in the ground matrix, (a target). This can be proven by swinging a coin over your coil (air testing), slowly and then faster. The problem with swinging wildly is that the faster you swing, the less ability a detector has separating a good target from bad ones and deep good targets sound trashy. After many hours of detecting, you will naturally develop a swing speed that is comfortable for you yet get good depth and separation from how much trash is mixed in with the good targets. Swing too slow, you lose depth, too fast, you lose separation. The more trash in the ground, the slower you should swing the coil because separation is more important than depth. If the trash is real bad a smaller coil will help with the separation and allows you to quicken the swing a little.
This is why we use the "wiggle" over a suspected deep target. By wiggling the coil over the target, #1, it isolates the suspected target from nearby trash and #2, allows you to quicken the speed of the coil going over the target for a better audio and visual ID. If the audio sounds better when wiggling, it is likely a good target and if the signal gets worse, it is most likely trash.
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
You will just have to swing the coil and see what works best for you Greg. I don't know what "good ground' is in Alaska and I don't know what you consider "without a bunch of trash" is either. I can mention 4,6,8 or 10 feet per second, but that doesn't mean you should use any of those. Four feet per second might be a good speed to start with and adjust as needed.
widebody747
New member
[size=large]one big problem you may need to consider if you haven't already is a design flaw in the AT PRO that's coming out on the Garrett forums is the shaft wiggle. all the aces have it and i guess older machines had it also. falsing is coming out as a problem too. it would seem to me one would cause the other?
what i find irritating is Garrett knew about these problems and has done nothing threw the years to fix it. instead the people that bought the machines try to fix them themselves instead of making the manufacturer fix it. they just accept the flaws. just observations. it is good we have the perfect machine in a white's.
[/size]
what i find irritating is Garrett knew about these problems and has done nothing threw the years to fix it. instead the people that bought the machines try to fix them themselves instead of making the manufacturer fix it. they just accept the flaws. just observations. it is good we have the perfect machine in a white's.
[/size]Greg, let me start by saying that it's good to hear that you have an MXT and especially that you like it. It's never too exciting to use a metal detector that we don't like. 
naturally, an important element of having a decent detector is that there is always a lot to learn, and the more we learn the more we're going to like it. because we learn it more and like it better, we can also increase our success afield.
While it is disturbing to bring up some old-time' terminology, I will. It's often not understood in fact, but in function, that we used to class detectors in one of two categories: 4-Filter and 2-Filter. Excellent examples from White's might be to compare the 6000 Di Pro SL and the Classic ID SL. The 6000 Di Pro SL used what was referred to as a 4-filter design and the Classic series a 2-filter type. The differences? The 4-filter types at first required a very fast sweep speed. The faster you swept the coil the better the response and the better the depth they could achieve. This was especially true of the earlier models, but as the design progressed, the sweep speed required was slowed to a more comfortable or moderate sweep. By using Signal Balance/Pre Amp Gain we can increase that and other settings which let us sweep slower. The other benefit of the 4-filter types was that they tend to handle higher iron mineralization much better, too.
Then there are the 2-filter types which we've come to call slow-motion and quick response designs. They allow a much slower sweep speed to respond to a target. One benefit is that they can be worked more comfortable, and they excel when hunting in multi-target (trashy) sites to pick good targets from the trash. A trade-off of most of the slow-motion/quick-response designs is that they have a bit more difficulty filtering out a lot of ground mineral signal. Thus, if swept too briskly, you could swamp the processors with a lot of ground signal and not pass along or react to a target signal.
That's why many of us like some models like the White's XL Pro or XLT for 'cruising' large open areas such as football fields and grassy parks and schools. They are the moderate-to-fast motion designs and can respond well while dealing with a lot of ground signal which lets you 'cruise' along at a bit quicker pace. When we get into brushy confines or sites with a lot of metal, such as tot-lots or by fences, or hunting ghost towns or other very littered sites, then we want to grab a good quality, slower-sweep/quick response detector.
Let's take this one step farther by acknowledging that many/most of today's detectors are not of the analog design but are digital, or mainly digital, and there is more science that can be used. Du to this, many of the slow-motion model are actually capable of being worked a little faster in higher mineralized conditions that before so we might be able to use a little brisker sweep than we used to while still employing the 'proper' slow motion they generally require.
With regard to the new Garrett AT Pro we can also note that they have come the way of some of the best competitive models in their new entry. For example, they added the numeric VDI as found on White's models for a long time and also on many Teknetics ans Fisher models. They have an "iron range" from 40 VDI and below, which has been on a Teknetics T2 for over 6 years. They have provided a single VDI adjustment up to '40' using a keypad, where models such as White's XL Pro and IDX Pro and MXT and MXT Pro and Teknetics T2 and Omega and Gamma (to name only a few competitive model) provide the user with a full-range of manual Discrimination adjustment to deal with ferrous targets as well as non-ferrous up to and including the modern Zinc Cent.
Also, they left the "STD' or standard saturated audio similar to all their other coin hunting models, but added the PRO or PROportional Audio response, the same as all of the White's and Teknetics and Fisher models that I've already mentioned. I mention this because it will certainly have a bearing on how fast you can sweep the search coils and how quickly (or slowly) the detector responds to a located target. I think many hobbyists will come to decipher some of the marketing hype in time to realize that they might already have a detector model that is as good (or better ) than their new entry. Personally, I like the models I like to use and haven't seen anything yet to convince me to buy a new Garrett. I'll check one out, but I also know that in some ground, they will have challenges if swept too quickly.
Let's look at a few comments pulled from White's Website that are copied from their Owner's Manual and the write up by the design engineer, David Johnson, as it pertains to the MXT's sweep speed.:
The discrimination system is a second derivative ("two-filter'') design for quick response over a broad range of sweep speeds. The analysis system for determining what kind of target is present has special features which reduce interference from ground minerals, and which automatically scale target ID confidence according to the mineralization level.
So, the MXT is a quick-response design, as we knew, and the analysis system has special features to reduce ground mineral interference.
FAST SWEEPING: Many discriminators tend to lose good target signals, even shallow ones, when quickly sweeping the search coil. The MXT is tolerant of moderate search coil sweeps, that is to say good at both faster and slower search coil paces.
A bit confusing because it says the MXT is "tolerant of moderate search coil sweeps," but adds that it is good at both faster and slower search coils paces.
The loop must be swept (in motion) for metals to
respond and provide accurate discrimination. Each
pass of the loop from left to right (or from right to
left) should overlap the last by at least 50% and take
about two seconds.
Here it clearly states that a left-to-right sweep should take about 2 seconds. What isn't stated, however, is just how long the left-to-right sweep ought to be. Personally, I try to keep my side-to-side sweep at about 4-feet unless it is brush and/or trashy in which case i make a 2' to maybe 3' sweep.
8. Move the coil just over the ground and listen for
the distinct repeatable beep produced by a good
metal target. It is wise to plant metals just under the
soil to practice on in order to learn to recognize
what it will sound like. Planting a metal target
disturbs the ground mineral, which usually reduces
the depth it would have been found in undisturbed
ground. It will take practice to determine the proper
search speed and technique. Do not go too fast. Try
to overlap your sweep path so that you won't miss
the small and/or deeper metal targets.
Here we have several reminders:
1.. It's wise to plan metal targets just under the soil to practice. This helps provide more target and ground signal and is superior to an "air test."
2.. Planting a metal target disturbs the ground mineral, which usually reduces the depth it would have been found if in undisturbed ground. This lets us know that planting targets will not give us the depth of detection we can achieve when searching for naturally-lost targets in undisturbed ground. It also alerts us to why we might have problems getting a signal on a buried target once we've disturbed the ground to try and located a target.
3.. It will take practice to determine the proper search speed and technique. To this let me add that with a larger-size search coil you might need a more 'normal' to faster sweep speed, but the use of a smaller search coil allows us to use a much slower sweep speed.
4.. Do no go too fast. It looks like there's a message there, right?!
So, if others haven't left you confused, just rely on my post and the clips for the manual and engineer's report to help you scratch your head. Honestly, it will depend on the search coil used, the site conditions you are hunting, and the mineralization level you're dealing with. I prefer to use a 6
naturally, an important element of having a decent detector is that there is always a lot to learn, and the more we learn the more we're going to like it. because we learn it more and like it better, we can also increase our success afield.I own and use more than one detector. Through the years I have come to appreciate the design engineering behind the MXT and I feel the MXT Pro and MXT are some of the best model on the market today. I also think there are some models offered by a competitor or two that are also quite versatile. I also know that others, like me, will be interested in new model offerings from some competitors and we think that maybe, just maybe, they would be a little better than what we are using, so, if you don't mind, what is it about the AT Pro that interests you? What do you think might be more appealing than the performance you get from your MXT?gregp said:
I caught that comment as well and am certain that in some functions a quicker sweep might be advantageous .... such as squeaking the most out of an "air test." For in-ground hunting, especially if the ground mineral (Fe[sub]3[/sub]O[sub]4[/sub]) is extreme or if there are a lot of trash targets in the area, a slower sweep is definitely called for.gregp said:
Yes, there can be a too-slow sweep speed. We are using VLF Ground Cancelling Discrimination which means the search coil must be in motion, to some degree, in order to read and process both the ground signal and the metal target signal. However, you can also use a too-fast sweep speed that basically swamps the filtering/processing circuitry with too much ground signal (usually a signal of 1 Hz to 2 Hz) to the point that it can receive and process the target signal.gregp said:
While it is disturbing to bring up some old-time' terminology, I will. It's often not understood in fact, but in function, that we used to class detectors in one of two categories: 4-Filter and 2-Filter. Excellent examples from White's might be to compare the 6000 Di Pro SL and the Classic ID SL. The 6000 Di Pro SL used what was referred to as a 4-filter design and the Classic series a 2-filter type. The differences? The 4-filter types at first required a very fast sweep speed. The faster you swept the coil the better the response and the better the depth they could achieve. This was especially true of the earlier models, but as the design progressed, the sweep speed required was slowed to a more comfortable or moderate sweep. By using Signal Balance/Pre Amp Gain we can increase that and other settings which let us sweep slower. The other benefit of the 4-filter types was that they tend to handle higher iron mineralization much better, too.
Then there are the 2-filter types which we've come to call slow-motion and quick response designs. They allow a much slower sweep speed to respond to a target. One benefit is that they can be worked more comfortable, and they excel when hunting in multi-target (trashy) sites to pick good targets from the trash. A trade-off of most of the slow-motion/quick-response designs is that they have a bit more difficulty filtering out a lot of ground mineral signal. Thus, if swept too briskly, you could swamp the processors with a lot of ground signal and not pass along or react to a target signal.
That's why many of us like some models like the White's XL Pro or XLT for 'cruising' large open areas such as football fields and grassy parks and schools. They are the moderate-to-fast motion designs and can respond well while dealing with a lot of ground signal which lets you 'cruise' along at a bit quicker pace. When we get into brushy confines or sites with a lot of metal, such as tot-lots or by fences, or hunting ghost towns or other very littered sites, then we want to grab a good quality, slower-sweep/quick response detector.
Let's take this one step farther by acknowledging that many/most of today's detectors are not of the analog design but are digital, or mainly digital, and there is more science that can be used. Du to this, many of the slow-motion model are actually capable of being worked a little faster in higher mineralized conditions that before so we might be able to use a little brisker sweep than we used to while still employing the 'proper' slow motion they generally require.
With regard to the new Garrett AT Pro we can also note that they have come the way of some of the best competitive models in their new entry. For example, they added the numeric VDI as found on White's models for a long time and also on many Teknetics ans Fisher models. They have an "iron range" from 40 VDI and below, which has been on a Teknetics T2 for over 6 years. They have provided a single VDI adjustment up to '40' using a keypad, where models such as White's XL Pro and IDX Pro and MXT and MXT Pro and Teknetics T2 and Omega and Gamma (to name only a few competitive model) provide the user with a full-range of manual Discrimination adjustment to deal with ferrous targets as well as non-ferrous up to and including the modern Zinc Cent.
Also, they left the "STD' or standard saturated audio similar to all their other coin hunting models, but added the PRO or PROportional Audio response, the same as all of the White's and Teknetics and Fisher models that I've already mentioned. I mention this because it will certainly have a bearing on how fast you can sweep the search coils and how quickly (or slowly) the detector responds to a located target. I think many hobbyists will come to decipher some of the marketing hype in time to realize that they might already have a detector model that is as good (or better
) than their new entry. Personally, I like the models I like to use and haven't seen anything yet to convince me to buy a new Garrett. I'll check one out, but I also know that in some ground, they will have challenges if swept too quickly.Let's look at a few comments pulled from White's Website that are copied from their Owner's Manual and the write up by the design engineer, David Johnson, as it pertains to the MXT's sweep speed.:
The discrimination system is a second derivative ("two-filter'') design for quick response over a broad range of sweep speeds. The analysis system for determining what kind of target is present has special features which reduce interference from ground minerals, and which automatically scale target ID confidence according to the mineralization level.
So, the MXT is a quick-response design, as we knew, and the analysis system has special features to reduce ground mineral interference.
FAST SWEEPING: Many discriminators tend to lose good target signals, even shallow ones, when quickly sweeping the search coil. The MXT is tolerant of moderate search coil sweeps, that is to say good at both faster and slower search coil paces.
A bit confusing because it says the MXT is "tolerant of moderate search coil sweeps," but adds that it is good at both faster and slower search coils paces.
The loop must be swept (in motion) for metals to
respond and provide accurate discrimination. Each
pass of the loop from left to right (or from right to
left) should overlap the last by at least 50% and take
about two seconds.
Here it clearly states that a left-to-right sweep should take about 2 seconds. What isn't stated, however, is just how long the left-to-right sweep ought to be. Personally, I try to keep my side-to-side sweep at about 4-feet unless it is brush and/or trashy in which case i make a 2' to maybe 3' sweep.
8. Move the coil just over the ground and listen for
the distinct repeatable beep produced by a good
metal target. It is wise to plant metals just under the
soil to practice on in order to learn to recognize
what it will sound like. Planting a metal target
disturbs the ground mineral, which usually reduces
the depth it would have been found in undisturbed
ground. It will take practice to determine the proper
search speed and technique. Do not go too fast. Try
to overlap your sweep path so that you won't miss
the small and/or deeper metal targets.
Here we have several reminders:
1.. It's wise to plan metal targets just under the soil to practice. This helps provide more target and ground signal and is superior to an "air test."
2.. Planting a metal target disturbs the ground mineral, which usually reduces the depth it would have been found if in undisturbed ground. This lets us know that planting targets will not give us the depth of detection we can achieve when searching for naturally-lost targets in undisturbed ground. It also alerts us to why we might have problems getting a signal on a buried target once we've disturbed the ground to try and located a target.
3.. It will take practice to determine the proper search speed and technique. To this let me add that with a larger-size search coil you might need a more 'normal' to faster sweep speed, but the use of a smaller search coil allows us to use a much slower sweep speed.
4.. Do no go too fast. It looks like there's a message there, right?!
So, if others haven't left you confused, just rely on my post and the clips for the manual and engineer's report to help you scratch your head. Honestly, it will depend on the search coil used, the site conditions you are hunting, and the mineralization level you're dealing with. I prefer to use a 6
Monte, Excellent information of which i will have to read a few more time to get it all. You asked my interest in the AT-PRO. Bottom line it boils down to two things: First is Waterproof. I live in Alaska and for the past two summers it rained more than it shined. I have a cover for my MXT but worried about water all the time. Second, My daughter really want's to detect with me. The pro is lighter than my mxt by a pound. My thought was if it's lighter and performed like the mxt she would go on the dry days and when it rained and she stayed inside and dry (teen age girls dont want there hair wet) I could use the pro instead of worrying about water on the mxt.
I, like everyone else, am always learning so reading and re-reading manuals and such can always fill in some down time (if you can't detect and as a break in doing researchgregp said:
).All good points, however I still have my concerns about the AT Pro. Now, I am one who does all of my recovery with my left hand and my right hand stays clean and so does the detector in that hand. But many people use both hands and that means you can have dirt, grit and other small stuff get in and around the push-buttons of some models, like the AT Pro.gregp said:
I'm not one to go detecting in the rain, but if I pay for equipment that is supposed to be higher-tech then I would want to have a larger VDI display to see, especially if it's raining and the display is wet. I'd also like to have a true All Metal mode (threshold based) and not just a motion Discriminate mode with a near zero setting for All Metal searches. And, since we're referring to the MXT or MXT Pro or some models from competitors like the Teknetics Omega, it's good to have a fully variable Disc. adjustment and not rely on segment notching of non-ferrous targets.
I do plan of getting wet a bit this winter here in NW Oregon as some friends and I have a couple of opportunities during the rainy season, but I'll get a weather cover for the Omega and won't worry about it as the display and all controls are covered. I am sure I'll tinker with an AT Pro against my Omega and an MXT Pro and a couple of other models, but I honestly don't see it being a model of great interest to me. I'm sure t will work for some, and you might be one of them, but it falls short of a few things I like to have.
Best of luck afield!
Monte